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2008-04-03 16:05:24
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6574|Ireland
Did somebody create an Islamic hate thread and not invite me?

I believe that free people have a right to pray in all public places as long as it does not infringe on other peoples rights or abilities to utilize the public place or services. 

But since I am an Infidel I am not sure my opinion counts in Islamic matters.
2008-04-03 16:07:41
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6946

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:


Ok then all the Muslims that want a prayer room on campus, pool your money and buy one for the school or rent a room form the school.
The ones in JFK are used by all denominations from what I could gather. A rabbi was giving a 'sermon' or whatever it is they do while I was at the airport as a couple of El Al flights were leaving. I'm sure Christians, Buddhists, Muslims and Hindus use it too. It seems like just a plain room. Perhaps they can look into the JFK room-funding model.

Personally I would detest and abhorr my tax money being spent on such drivel, so they can make do with the fucking playground if they feel compelled to speak to imaginary beings in the sky.

PS Nathan Sharansky got called over the intercom to the El Al desk while I was waiting for my flight!
Off topic.......How was El Al to fly on??
I wasn't flying El Al, there were just a load of El Al flights taking off from Terminal 4 when I was there. I've flown internally within Israel on a local carrier though and I was separated from my buddy, interrogated by two different people, asked to scroll through all the photos on my camera, was stripsearched, had my hold luggage entirely emptied out and dusted for explosives, had to repack it myself and told that my travel iron would be posted to Ireland for me because 'they couldn't be sure about it'. Now that's security.
2008-04-03 18:35:21
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7042|USA

konfusion wrote:

Why the hell would you need prayer rooms? And I agree with both CamPoe and Turq on this one: There is no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to pray at school (and I'm an atheist FYI, who doesn't exactly love religion) as long as the opportunity is given to everyone equally. Public schools need more freedom.

lowing wrote:

Where do I sugges they do it?..........In a Mosque or at home.
That's ridiculous! Every citizen has a right to practice his own religion, as long as his freedom doesn't encroach on others'. How would this be encroaching on anyone else's freedom?

-konfusion
It is the law of the land, and special interest is looking to get it changed for special interest, and I am against it. Like I said in the other threads, where exactly do you draw the line. Does this one change encroach on anyones's freedoms or privlidges, probably not, but add foot washing stations, and special gym hours, and the right for doctors to wear burkas and right for waiters to refuse service etc etc........and it starts to get pretty annoying would you not agree. No religion should be this fuckin' NEEDY or demand this much attention.


Ya know, maybe that is what my problem is with this fuckin religion, it is an attention whore and NEEDY as a mother fucker.



make that 4 mother fuckers

Last edited by lowing (2008-04-03 18:41:41)

2008-04-03 18:37:19
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7042|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:


The ones in JFK are used by all denominations from what I could gather. A rabbi was giving a 'sermon' or whatever it is they do while I was at the airport as a couple of El Al flights were leaving. I'm sure Christians, Buddhists, Muslims and Hindus use it too. It seems like just a plain room. Perhaps they can look into the JFK room-funding model.

Personally I would detest and abhorr my tax money being spent on such drivel, so they can make do with the fucking playground if they feel compelled to speak to imaginary beings in the sky.

PS Nathan Sharansky got called over the intercom to the El Al desk while I was waiting for my flight!
Off topic.......How was El Al to fly on??
I wasn't flying El Al, there were just a load of El Al flights taking off from Terminal 4 when I was there. I've flown internally within Israel on a local carrier though and I was separated from my buddy, interrogated by two different people, asked to scroll through all the photos on my camera, was stripsearched, had my hold luggage entirely emptied out and dusted for explosives, had to repack it myself and told that my travel iron would be posted to Ireland for me because 'they couldn't be sure about it'. Now that's security.
yeah, that is definately security. When I went ot Iraq last year we flew Luftansa, my first European carrier flight. I was impressed to say the least and I was in cattle class
2008-04-04 00:46:24
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6681|Éire

lowing wrote:

konfusion wrote:

Why the hell would you need prayer rooms? And I agree with both CamPoe and Turq on this one: There is no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to pray at school (and I'm an atheist FYI, who doesn't exactly love religion) as long as the opportunity is given to everyone equally. Public schools need more freedom.

lowing wrote:

Where do I sugges they do it?..........In a Mosque or at home.
That's ridiculous! Every citizen has a right to practice his own religion, as long as his freedom doesn't encroach on others'. How would this be encroaching on anyone else's freedom?

-konfusion
It is the law of the land, and special interest is looking to get it changed for special interest, and I am against it. Like I said in the other threads, where exactly do you draw the line. Does this one change encroach on anyones's freedoms or privlidges, probably not, but add foot washing stations, and special gym hours, and the right for doctors to wear burkas and right for waiters to refuse service etc etc........and it starts to get pretty annoying would you not agree. No religion should be this fuckin' NEEDY or demand this much attention.


Ya know, maybe that is what my problem is with this fuckin religion, it is an attention whore and NEEDY as a mother fucker.



make that 4 mother fuckers
A certain number of incidences from certain elements within the religion create attention-seeking scenarios like this... and the media, being the whores that they are, buy into it and give it blanket coverage. If these people were just told "no special treatment for minorities, make do like everyone else has to" and the media just ignored it like the non-story it is there would be no issue.
2008-04-04 01:53:59
JahManRed
wank
+646|7018|IRELAND

I am against specific rooms for different religions in state schools/colleges. There should be no religion in any educational institution. Although one chill room for anyone religiously minded is ok, as long as its not for any particular religion and can be used by them all to mutter their mumbo jumbo.

We used to have a chill room at my old collage. It was used by the religious folks, Christians, to escape from the various drugs being smoked in the smoking room. Ahh those were the days. The smoking room was next door to the canteen and people would be sitting eating their dinner and smoking at the same time. Ahhh the un PC old day, how I urn for them.
2008-04-04 02:22:04
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7232|Cologne, Germany

this isn't as big in germany as you might think. The court decision was preliminary, a higher court will deal with this issue within a year, and make a definite ruling on the matter.

I have read up on some stories in the german press, and it is quite clear that the court had a difficult decision to make, balancing the freedom of religion and the separation of church and state, both of which are important parts of our constitution. Personally, I am satisfied with the compromise ( to allow the boy to pray in a separate room, as long as it does not disrupt the school life ).

I would also expect this prayer room to be open to students of all faiths. As long as the school does not force their students to attend religious ceremonies ( such as prayers or masses ) or choses one religion over another, I don't really see a problem. Even if the prayer room was on school property, prayers are only allowed during breaks, and therefore every student's private matter. In other words, as long as prayers or other religious ceremonies are not part of the regular school schedule, separation of church and state is still upheld.

Even if religion is not a big part of my life, I realize that it plays a major role in the lifes of other people, and as a liberal and tolerant person, I respect those peoples' right to have the opportunity to pray to the deity of their choosing at the time when it is appropriate, feasible, and doesn't put someone else at a disadvantage.

The more interesting question to me is, lowing, if a buddhist, or hindu, or jew, or a follower of a different religion other than islam had asked for the right to pray during school, would it even had gotten your attention ?

A lot of high schools here in germany have so-called "rooms of silence" or "rooms of peace", where students may go to to pray, meditate, or do whatever floats their spiritual boat. That is not uncommon.
2008-04-04 02:45:18
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6681|Éire

B.Schuss wrote:

this isn't as big in germany as you might think. The court decision was preliminary, a higher court will deal with this issue within a year, and make a definite ruling on the matter.

I have read up on some stories in the german press, and it is quite clear that the court had a difficult decision to make, balancing the freedom of religion and the separation of church and state, both of which are important parts of our constitution. Personally, I am satisfied with the compromise ( to allow the boy to pray in a separate room, as long as it does not disrupt the school life ).

I would also expect this prayer room to be open to students of all faiths. As long as the school does not force their students to attend religious ceremonies ( such as prayers or masses ) or choses one religion over another, I don't really see a problem. Even if the prayer room was on school property, prayers are only allowed during breaks, and therefore every student's private matter. In other words, as long as prayers or other religious ceremonies are not part of the regular school schedule, separation of church and state is still upheld.

Even if religion is not a big part of my life, I realize that it plays a major role in the lifes of other people, and as a liberal and tolerant person, I respect those peoples' right to have the opportunity to pray to the deity of their choosing at the time when it is appropriate, feasible, and doesn't put someone else at a disadvantage.

The more interesting question to me is, lowing, if a buddhist, or hindu, or jew, or a follower of a different religion other than islam had asked for the right to pray during school, would it even had gotten your attention ?

A lot of high schools here in germany have so-called "rooms of silence" or "rooms of peace", where students may go to to pray, meditate, or do whatever floats their spiritual boat. That is not uncommon.
Sounds to me like this whole 'issue' is another attempt by the media to make a big story out of another minor incident involving Islam. In my college we have a little 'chill out' room, Muslims can go and pray in there if they like (outside of class time of course)... sounds like the same situation in this German college.

Just to clarify has this particular Muslim specifically asked for a designated room to be set aside for exclusively Muslim worship?

Last edited by Braddock (2008-04-04 02:46:04)

2008-04-04 02:45:39
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7200|Nårvei

Can't possibly see how this is appeasement ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2008-04-04 02:51:59
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7042|USA

B.Schuss wrote:

this isn't as big in germany as you might think. The court decision was preliminary, a higher court will deal with this issue within a year, and make a definite ruling on the matter.

I have read up on some stories in the german press, and it is quite clear that the court had a difficult decision to make, balancing the freedom of religion and the separation of church and state, both of which are important parts of our constitution. Personally, I am satisfied with the compromise ( to allow the boy to pray in a separate room, as long as it does not disrupt the school life ).

I would also expect this prayer room to be open to students of all faiths. As long as the school does not force their students to attend religious ceremonies ( such as prayers or masses ) or choses one religion over another, I don't really see a problem. Even if the prayer room was on school property, prayers are only allowed during breaks, and therefore every student's private matter. In other words, as long as prayers or other religious ceremonies are not part of the regular school schedule, separation of church and state is still upheld.

Even if religion is not a big part of my life, I realize that it plays a major role in the lifes of other people, and as a liberal and tolerant person, I respect those peoples' right to have the opportunity to pray to the deity of their choosing at the time when it is appropriate, feasible, and doesn't put someone else at a disadvantage.

The more interesting question to me is, lowing, if a buddhist, or hindu, or jew, or a follower of a different religion other than islam had asked for the right to pray during school, would it even had gotten your attention ?

A lot of high schools here in germany have so-called "rooms of silence" or "rooms of peace", where students may go to to pray, meditate, or do whatever floats their spiritual boat. That is not uncommon.
Like I said, no other religion is this needy or demands this kind of attention or appeasement. So no other religion is requiring anything except the freedom to worship, while Islam expects and demands everyone to get out of the way while they do it.
2008-04-04 02:54:35
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6681|Éire

lowing wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

this isn't as big in germany as you might think. The court decision was preliminary, a higher court will deal with this issue within a year, and make a definite ruling on the matter.

I have read up on some stories in the german press, and it is quite clear that the court had a difficult decision to make, balancing the freedom of religion and the separation of church and state, both of which are important parts of our constitution. Personally, I am satisfied with the compromise ( to allow the boy to pray in a separate room, as long as it does not disrupt the school life ).

I would also expect this prayer room to be open to students of all faiths. As long as the school does not force their students to attend religious ceremonies ( such as prayers or masses ) or choses one religion over another, I don't really see a problem. Even if the prayer room was on school property, prayers are only allowed during breaks, and therefore every student's private matter. In other words, as long as prayers or other religious ceremonies are not part of the regular school schedule, separation of church and state is still upheld.

Even if religion is not a big part of my life, I realize that it plays a major role in the lifes of other people, and as a liberal and tolerant person, I respect those peoples' right to have the opportunity to pray to the deity of their choosing at the time when it is appropriate, feasible, and doesn't put someone else at a disadvantage.

The more interesting question to me is, lowing, if a buddhist, or hindu, or jew, or a follower of a different religion other than islam had asked for the right to pray during school, would it even had gotten your attention ?

A lot of high schools here in germany have so-called "rooms of silence" or "rooms of peace", where students may go to to pray, meditate, or do whatever floats their spiritual boat. That is not uncommon.
Like I said, no other religion is this needy or demands this kind of attention or appeasement. So no other religion is requiring anything except the freedom to worship, while Islam expects and demands everyone to get out of the way while they do it.
Some advice... just ignore them. Tough love is what those Muslims need!
2008-04-04 02:58:06
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7042|USA

Braddock wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

this isn't as big in germany as you might think. The court decision was preliminary, a higher court will deal with this issue within a year, and make a definite ruling on the matter.

I have read up on some stories in the german press, and it is quite clear that the court had a difficult decision to make, balancing the freedom of religion and the separation of church and state, both of which are important parts of our constitution. Personally, I am satisfied with the compromise ( to allow the boy to pray in a separate room, as long as it does not disrupt the school life ).

I would also expect this prayer room to be open to students of all faiths. As long as the school does not force their students to attend religious ceremonies ( such as prayers or masses ) or choses one religion over another, I don't really see a problem. Even if the prayer room was on school property, prayers are only allowed during breaks, and therefore every student's private matter. In other words, as long as prayers or other religious ceremonies are not part of the regular school schedule, separation of church and state is still upheld.

Even if religion is not a big part of my life, I realize that it plays a major role in the lifes of other people, and as a liberal and tolerant person, I respect those peoples' right to have the opportunity to pray to the deity of their choosing at the time when it is appropriate, feasible, and doesn't put someone else at a disadvantage.

The more interesting question to me is, lowing, if a buddhist, or hindu, or jew, or a follower of a different religion other than islam had asked for the right to pray during school, would it even had gotten your attention ?

A lot of high schools here in germany have so-called "rooms of silence" or "rooms of peace", where students may go to to pray, meditate, or do whatever floats their spiritual boat. That is not uncommon.
Sounds to me like this whole 'issue' is another attempt by the media to make a big story out of another minor incident involving Islam. In my college we have a little 'chill out' room, Muslims can go and pray in there if they like (outside of class time of course)... sounds like the same situation in this German college.

Just to clarify has this particular Muslim specifically asked for a designated room to be set aside for exclusively Muslim worship?
Has anyone else requested it? always needing shit isn't it? After several attacks on my opinions I could not help but wonder why exactly I did feel this way and that is it. The attention this religion demands, far more than any other, and I do not want to bend to it. The thing is there isn't any other religion demanding that society do so much ofr them. It is tiresome. Especially since this religion is not exactly known for its charity toward "outsiders".
2008-04-04 02:59:11
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7232|Cologne, Germany

Braddock wrote:

Just to clarify has this particular Muslim specifically asked for a designated room to be set aside for exclusively Muslim worship?
no. his initial request was that he be allowed to pray in school at all. That's also all he asked for in court. it was then the court who judged that the school was obliged to provide a room, at least until a higher court makes a final decision. Interestingly, the court said that an empty classroom would be sufficient for the prayer, there was no mention of a designated prayer room.
2008-04-04 03:00:45
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7042|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

this isn't as big in germany as you might think. The court decision was preliminary, a higher court will deal with this issue within a year, and make a definite ruling on the matter.

I have read up on some stories in the german press, and it is quite clear that the court had a difficult decision to make, balancing the freedom of religion and the separation of church and state, both of which are important parts of our constitution. Personally, I am satisfied with the compromise ( to allow the boy to pray in a separate room, as long as it does not disrupt the school life ).

I would also expect this prayer room to be open to students of all faiths. As long as the school does not force their students to attend religious ceremonies ( such as prayers or masses ) or choses one religion over another, I don't really see a problem. Even if the prayer room was on school property, prayers are only allowed during breaks, and therefore every student's private matter. In other words, as long as prayers or other religious ceremonies are not part of the regular school schedule, separation of church and state is still upheld.

Even if religion is not a big part of my life, I realize that it plays a major role in the lifes of other people, and as a liberal and tolerant person, I respect those peoples' right to have the opportunity to pray to the deity of their choosing at the time when it is appropriate, feasible, and doesn't put someone else at a disadvantage.

The more interesting question to me is, lowing, if a buddhist, or hindu, or jew, or a follower of a different religion other than islam had asked for the right to pray during school, would it even had gotten your attention ?

A lot of high schools here in germany have so-called "rooms of silence" or "rooms of peace", where students may go to to pray, meditate, or do whatever floats their spiritual boat. That is not uncommon.
Like I said, no other religion is this needy or demands this kind of attention or appeasement. So no other religion is requiring anything except the freedom to worship, while Islam expects and demands everyone to get out of the way while they do it.
Some advice... just ignore them. Tough love is what those Muslims need!
great advice, now tell that to our PC driven, pussified, society.
2008-04-04 03:07:55
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6946

lowing wrote:

yeah, that is definately security. When I went ot Iraq last year we flew Luftansa, my first European carrier flight. I was impressed to say the least and I was in cattle class
I've flown with them a couple of times myself. Nice leather chairs and unlimited booze.
2008-04-04 03:10:37
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6681|Éire

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

this isn't as big in germany as you might think. The court decision was preliminary, a higher court will deal with this issue within a year, and make a definite ruling on the matter.

I have read up on some stories in the german press, and it is quite clear that the court had a difficult decision to make, balancing the freedom of religion and the separation of church and state, both of which are important parts of our constitution. Personally, I am satisfied with the compromise ( to allow the boy to pray in a separate room, as long as it does not disrupt the school life ).

I would also expect this prayer room to be open to students of all faiths. As long as the school does not force their students to attend religious ceremonies ( such as prayers or masses ) or choses one religion over another, I don't really see a problem. Even if the prayer room was on school property, prayers are only allowed during breaks, and therefore every student's private matter. In other words, as long as prayers or other religious ceremonies are not part of the regular school schedule, separation of church and state is still upheld.

Even if religion is not a big part of my life, I realize that it plays a major role in the lifes of other people, and as a liberal and tolerant person, I respect those peoples' right to have the opportunity to pray to the deity of their choosing at the time when it is appropriate, feasible, and doesn't put someone else at a disadvantage.

The more interesting question to me is, lowing, if a buddhist, or hindu, or jew, or a follower of a different religion other than islam had asked for the right to pray during school, would it even had gotten your attention ?

A lot of high schools here in germany have so-called "rooms of silence" or "rooms of peace", where students may go to to pray, meditate, or do whatever floats their spiritual boat. That is not uncommon.
Sounds to me like this whole 'issue' is another attempt by the media to make a big story out of another minor incident involving Islam. In my college we have a little 'chill out' room, Muslims can go and pray in there if they like (outside of class time of course)... sounds like the same situation in this German college.

Just to clarify has this particular Muslim specifically asked for a designated room to be set aside for exclusively Muslim worship?
Has anyone else requested it? always needing shit isn't it? After several attacks on my opinions I could not help but wonder why exactly I did feel this way and that is it. The attention this religion demands, far more than any other, and I do not want to bend to it. The thing is there isn't any other religion demanding that society do so much ofr them. It is tiresome. Especially since this religion is not exactly known for its charity toward "outsiders".
A couple of points: I read the news article in the link again and it doesn't state anywhere that the Muslim in question demanded any special rooms for his prayers. It gives the impression that he just wanted to pray and was seeking to do this somewhere on the grounds of the college (as the logistics of rushing off to the mosque several times a day would be a nightmare). The issue seems to have come out of the college having to process this desire and the college administration's perceived conflict between separation of education and religion. It was the court ruling that said a special room had to be designated. Tbh religion has nothing to do with this, it's a personal time issue... the student should be allowed to do what he wants in his free time with the facilities already available (chill out rooms and so on).

Secondly, as Cam pointed out in one of his links, other religions are just as attention-seeking and demanding. Trying to get a specific religious agenda on a school curriculum is pretty in your face and that's what certain Christian factions are trying to push in some States in the US. Could you imagine if Muslim politicians started trying to force schools into teaching with an Islamic bias?
2008-04-04 03:11:48
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7232|Cologne, Germany

lowing wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

this isn't as big in germany as you might think. The court decision was preliminary, a higher court will deal with this issue within a year, and make a definite ruling on the matter.

I have read up on some stories in the german press, and it is quite clear that the court had a difficult decision to make, balancing the freedom of religion and the separation of church and state, both of which are important parts of our constitution. Personally, I am satisfied with the compromise ( to allow the boy to pray in a separate room, as long as it does not disrupt the school life ).

I would also expect this prayer room to be open to students of all faiths. As long as the school does not force their students to attend religious ceremonies ( such as prayers or masses ) or choses one religion over another, I don't really see a problem. Even if the prayer room was on school property, prayers are only allowed during breaks, and therefore every student's private matter. In other words, as long as prayers or other religious ceremonies are not part of the regular school schedule, separation of church and state is still upheld.

Even if religion is not a big part of my life, I realize that it plays a major role in the lifes of other people, and as a liberal and tolerant person, I respect those peoples' right to have the opportunity to pray to the deity of their choosing at the time when it is appropriate, feasible, and doesn't put someone else at a disadvantage.

The more interesting question to me is, lowing, if a buddhist, or hindu, or jew, or a follower of a different religion other than islam had asked for the right to pray during school, would it even had gotten your attention ?

A lot of high schools here in germany have so-called "rooms of silence" or "rooms of peace", where students may go to to pray, meditate, or do whatever floats their spiritual boat. That is not uncommon.
Like I said, no other religion is this needy or demands this kind of attention or appeasement. So no other religion is requiring anything except the freedom to worship, while Islam expects and demands everyone to get out of the way while they do it.
well, different religions, different religious practices, I guess. Just because religious practices ( such as regular prayer or mass ) have become uncommon for the majority of people in our mostly secular western societies doesn't mean we cannot allow those who do take their religion seriously to practice it as they deem appropriate. It's called freedom of religion. As long as those practices do not represent a violation of our secular laws, of course.
And as I have already pointed out, this does not seem to be the case here.

The fact that we have become so secular that the few christians in that school didn't even bother to ask for a room to pray in does not mean we cannot allow other religions to do so, does it ?

and who knows, maybe some of the christians in that school might use that room, too, and everyone learns something about the other guy's religion...
2008-04-04 03:12:26
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7042|USA

Varegg wrote:

Can't possibly see how this is appeasement ...
To go to court and get the laws of the land changed to accomadate a specific group, and the court is entertaining it, and you do not see appeasement?
2008-04-04 03:16:48
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6681|Éire

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:


Like I said, no other religion is this needy or demands this kind of attention or appeasement. So no other religion is requiring anything except the freedom to worship, while Islam expects and demands everyone to get out of the way while they do it.
Some advice... just ignore them. Tough love is what those Muslims need!
great advice, now tell that to our PC driven, pussified, society.
I actually agree with you on this comment. This issue has been made into something more than it is by the PC mentality. The court could have just said the Muslim student is allowed to do what he wants with his free time (as long as he respects other students personal space) and left it at that. Demanding that the college designate a specific room for his prayer makes it into an issue of appeasement for a specific group, it should have only ever been an issue of being allowed to do what one wants with one's own free time and the right to use already available facilities.
2008-04-04 03:20:28
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7042|USA

B.Schuss wrote:

lowing wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

this isn't as big in germany as you might think. The court decision was preliminary, a higher court will deal with this issue within a year, and make a definite ruling on the matter.

I have read up on some stories in the german press, and it is quite clear that the court had a difficult decision to make, balancing the freedom of religion and the separation of church and state, both of which are important parts of our constitution. Personally, I am satisfied with the compromise ( to allow the boy to pray in a separate room, as long as it does not disrupt the school life ).

I would also expect this prayer room to be open to students of all faiths. As long as the school does not force their students to attend religious ceremonies ( such as prayers or masses ) or choses one religion over another, I don't really see a problem. Even if the prayer room was on school property, prayers are only allowed during breaks, and therefore every student's private matter. In other words, as long as prayers or other religious ceremonies are not part of the regular school schedule, separation of church and state is still upheld.

Even if religion is not a big part of my life, I realize that it plays a major role in the lifes of other people, and as a liberal and tolerant person, I respect those peoples' right to have the opportunity to pray to the deity of their choosing at the time when it is appropriate, feasible, and doesn't put someone else at a disadvantage.

The more interesting question to me is, lowing, if a buddhist, or hindu, or jew, or a follower of a different religion other than islam had asked for the right to pray during school, would it even had gotten your attention ?

A lot of high schools here in germany have so-called "rooms of silence" or "rooms of peace", where students may go to to pray, meditate, or do whatever floats their spiritual boat. That is not uncommon.
Like I said, no other religion is this needy or demands this kind of attention or appeasement. So no other religion is requiring anything except the freedom to worship, while Islam expects and demands everyone to get out of the way while they do it.
well, different religions, different religious practices, I guess. Just because religious practices ( such as regular prayer or mass ) have become uncommon for the majority of people in our mostly secular western societies doesn't mean we cannot allow those who do take their religion seriously to practice it as they deem appropriate. It's called freedom of religion. As long as those practices do not represent a violation of our secular laws, of course.
And as I have already pointed out, this does not seem to be the case here.

The fact that we have become so secular that the few christians in that school didn't even bother to ask for a room to pray in does not mean we cannot allow other religions to do so, does it ?

and who knows, maybe some of the christians in that school might use that room, too, and everyone learns something about the other guy's religion...
Nope I guess I should also be understanding when I can not look at my doctor because she is covered up in  a burka and not allowed to show her face, or I should be understanding when I go to the gym and find out I came during Islam workout hour, or I should be more understanding when my waiter refuses t oserve me my pork sandwhich and my beer. Or I guess I should understand when a dentist refuses treatment because their patient is not wearing the proper attire.  yeah I guess, it is MY problem, I need to be more understanding in our free society. Basically you are argumung that they are free to be as big a pain in the ass as they wishm, because their religion demands it.
2008-04-04 03:27:26
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7042|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:


Some advice... just ignore them. Tough love is what those Muslims need!
great advice, now tell that to our PC driven, pussified, society.
I actually agree with you on this comment. This issue has been made into something more than it is by the PC mentality. The court could have just said the Muslim student is allowed to do what he wants with his free time (as long as he respects other students personal space) and left it at that. Demanding that the college designate a specific room for his prayer makes it into an issue of appeasement for a specific group, it should have only ever been an issue of being allowed to do what one wants with one's own free time and the right to use already available facilities.
and it is everytime you turn around. I guess I keep osting shit like this, because all I here is whats the big deal and your a Nazi. Well, how many "little deals" start to make up a big deal you guys. How much bending do you intend to do before you break your back. And if you do break your back do not expect treatment from a Muslim doctor because YOU aren't dressed right according to THIER religion.
2008-04-04 03:27:27
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7232|Cologne, Germany

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Can't possibly see how this is appeasement ...
To go to court and get the laws of the land changed to accomadate a specific group, and the court is entertaining it, and you do not see appeasement?
care to explain what law of the land was changed ? the court had to balance freedom of religion and separation of church and state, both important parts of the constitution here in germany. The court made a ruling on the immediate case ( which I am totally satisfied with, btw ), and a higher court will make a ruling on the overall issue within a year.

As long as those are not part of the school activities, it is every student's right to practice their religion freely. The school doesn't chose any religion over another, but will provide a neutral room for everyone to pray in, at times when school activities are not disrupted, i.e. during lunch breaks or whatever is appropriate.

From my point of view, that is a very good compromise, until a higher court makes a ruling.
2008-04-04 03:27:45
Pierre
I hunt criminals down for a living
+68|7066|Belgium

lowing wrote:

Has anyone else requested it? always needing shit isn't it? After several attacks on my opinions I could not help but wonder why exactly I did feel this way and that is it. The attention this religion demands, far more than any other, and I do not want to bend to it. The thing is there isn't any other religion demanding that society do so much ofr them. It is tiresome. Especially since this religion is not exactly known for its charity toward "outsiders".
In Belgium, Jewish children attend Jewish schools. They can attend other schools, public or private (= Catholic) but in that case they follow the general rules of the school they are in. They cannot ask for special privileges. OTOH, they do not need to ask for special priviliges because they have their own schools if they want to.

Muslim children do not have their own schools, so they do not have a choice if they want to practice their belief. Is this discrimination? Would you call it appeasement if the Muslim community would organise their own schools?

BTW, there is a discussion going on to grant Muslim children some free days according to their beliefs (end of ramadan, etc.). Would you call this appeasement, bearing in mind that other youth has their own public holidays based on the Christian religion?
2008-04-04 03:29:05
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6946

lowing wrote:

Nope I guess I should also be understanding when I can not look at my doctor because she is covered up in  a burka and not allowed to show her face, or I should be understanding when I go to the gym and find out I came during Islam workout hour, or I should be more understanding when my waiter refuses t oserve me my pork sandwhich and my beer. Or I guess I should understand when a dentist refuses treatment because their patient is not wearing the proper attire.  yeah I guess, it is MY problem, I need to be more understanding in our free society. Basically you are argumung that they are free to be as big a pain in the ass as they wishm, because their religion demands it.
Why would anyone go to a doctor clad in a burka? Why would anyone go to a shop that doesn't sell pork sandwiches to buy a pork sandwich (it's like going to a kosher place and asking for a cheeseburger, which I unwittingly did in Israel)? Why would anyone go to a dentist that cares about what you wear?

It's the old adage of the business proprietor: "I reserve the right.."

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-04 03:31:15)

2008-04-04 03:29:44
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7042|USA

B.Schuss wrote:

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Can't possibly see how this is appeasement ...
To go to court and get the laws of the land changed to accomadate a specific group, and the court is entertaining it, and you do not see appeasement?
care to explain what law of the land was changed ? the court had to balance freedom of religion and separation of church and state, both important parts of the constitution here in germany. The court made a ruling on the immediate case ( which I am totally satisfied with, btw ), and a higher court will make a ruling on the overall issue within a year.

As long as those are not part of the school activities, it is every student's right to practice their religion freely. The school doesn't chose any religion over another, but will provide a neutral room for everyone to pray in, at times when school activities are not disrupted, i.e. during lunch breaks or whatever is appropriate.

From my point of view, that is a very good compromise, until a higher court makes a ruling.
none yet, but we will see won't we?

 

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