BF2S Forums How'd you feel if they built a Mosque in your neighborhood?

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

1. If you noticed I didn't use the German people, then do not argue that I my analogy did. My anaolgy did reflect he Islamic example. Nazi party being an organization ( religion) with certain ideologies ( beliefs). This may not reflect the personalities however, of ALL members and actions of this organization ( religion) never the less the organization ( religion) itself is cloaked in violence, and intolerance.

READ GODDAMNIT READ. Read the words that I write. Your analogy was CRAP. I didn't say you used German people in the analogy. I said that you should have: that way your analogy would have been worth something. FACT: The majority of Muslim people across the entire world are peaceful adherents of their religion. Germans for instance in 1933. FACT: A small number of Muslims engage in violent acts driven by selective reading of the Q'uran. The Nazi party if you will, all of whose members believed in Germanic supremacy (much like Al Qaeda and other minority groups). Nazis represented a MINORITY of the Germanic people. Most Germans wanted to get on with their lives and live in peace and prosperity.

I also note that you use this Nazi example because you want to equate Nazism with Islam, which is quite frankly disgusting. A real Goebbels tactic if ever there was one...


Read my edit. I am using a far more massive majority of people than you could ever muster in your stupid generalisations. A list of Islamic countries a mile long where the Q'uran is not interepreted as you would have us believe it is interpreted everywhere. Countries where homosexuality doesn't warrant the death penalty. Countries where public flogging and public executions are not part of the legal system. You really are blind.

1. No for my analogy to be crap I WOULD include all the German people, but since not ALL the German people belonged to the Nazi Party that analogy would be flawed. As I said it I judged the NAzi Party, not individuals within it. I judge Islam, not individuals within it. Why not make the comparison, I am pretty sure the Islamic leaders were allied to Germany in their "final solution" to the Jewish problem.

2. You mean in these countries, women are not second class citizens under Islamic teachings and gays can freely and openly be gay without punishment, or condemnation from Islamic laws or teachings ? and this is the attitude with Islam in the world? Very cool.

Well somehow i doubt the Islamic countries in north africa were very pleased about German invasion.. correct me if im mistaken but didnt the british gather armies through out africa and the middle east to fight the germans?

so id say u are flawed there as well... i doubt muslims preach the destruction of judaism... (their removal from isreal mabye.. but thats a hole nothing topic entirely.)

B.Schuss wrote:

I could only be bothered to read about 20 pages of this thread, so be patient with me. I'll simply adress the OP.

We have a mosque in our small city, and it doesn't bother me. Interestingly enough, the mosque was built next to the location where the catholics men's choir holds its sessions, and they get along fine.

By comparison, we have a lot more christian churches here than mosques, in line with the demographic. Freedom of religion applies to everyone, as long as the religion in question doesn't go against the secular law. Interestingly, muslims here seem to be able to do both ( practice their religion and follow our secular laws ). So I wouldn't know why this should not be possible in other countries.
Lowing will probably argue that those aren't "real" muslims, and that they're not following "real" islam by living peacefully among us.

But even if that were true, it would only mean that islam as a religion is still under development. As Cam has said, islam is a "young" religion, compared to other big monotheistic religions, so it should come at no surprise that there is room for improvement.
Those 1.3-1.6 billions muslims won't just go away, you know. We all live on the same planet, and there is simply no way for us to exclude muslims from our societies in the long run. The influence islam has had on this planet is undeniable.

So, lowing doesn't like islam, and what it represents. Fair enough. Neither do I. Some aspects of this religion are backwards, and contradict our western beliefs with regard to various issues, such as women's rights, gays, freedom of religion, and others. But as I said, islam is not going away. Just ignoring it cannot be an option. if we want to help muslims all over the world to get rid off the more radical and oppressive parts of their religion, we need to approach them. Isolation cannot be the solution.

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Here is a cast iron irrefutable fact: Islam considered violent intolerant and archaic by many nations, that is EXACTLY why govts. are doing back flips to appease this religion, they are afraid of the consequences of NOT appearing to be "pro-Islam". It is EXACTLY the reason why other  countries like Denmark have taken a stand again being intimidated by this religion and printing FREELY any damn thing they want.

No it isn't.

I'd refute that all day long.

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Here is a cast iron irrefutable fact: Islam considered violent intolerant and archaic by many nations, that is EXACTLY why govts. are doing back flips to appease this religion, they are afraid of the consequences of NOT appearing to be "pro-Islam". It is EXACTLY the reason why other  countries like Denmark have taken a stand again being intimidated by this religion and printing FREELY any damn thing they want.

No it isn't.

I'd refute that all day long.

ok then show where I am wrong.

lowing wrote:

Here is a cast iron irrefutable fact: Islam considered violent intolerant and archaic by many nations, that is EXACTLY why govts. are doing back flips to appease this religion, they are afraid of the consequences of NOT appearing to be "pro-Islam". It is EXACTLY the reason why other  countries like Denmark have taken a stand again being intimidated by this religion and printing FREELY any damn thing they want. You think for some reason I am the only person that sees Islam as a 500 year old outdated, intolerant religion, yet you can find article after article, story after story, written by people farther "in the know" )be they ex-Muslim or not,) than you or I that completely and utterly say YOU ARE WRONG.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-01 11:53:38)

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Take note:

The Israel issue began in 1918 along with mass Jewish immigration to the mandate of Palestine.

(you're just showing more and more that you don't have a clue what you're talking about)

LOL, the Israel "ISSUE"??? Oh I am sorry I thought we were talking about the Country of Israel ( 1948)..anyway I am pretty sure the Israel "ISSUE" has been around since the Exodus. just guessing though

How do you think Israel came to be a country? Do you think it just suddenly became Israel one day, rather than being obtained by the Zionist agency through a systematic program of Zionist sponsored economic deprivation and terror attacks against the administrators of the region and the indigenous Arab populace? Not to mention mass scale illegal immigration.

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

No it isn't.

I'd refute that all day long.

ok then show where I am wrong.

All of it is wrong. It's entirely based on assumption. Much like your stupid post about Israel....

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

LOL, the Israel "ISSUE"??? Oh I am sorry I thought we were talking about the Country of Israel ( 1948)..anyway I am pretty sure the Israel "ISSUE" has been around since the Exodus. just guessing though

How do you think Israel came to be a country? Do you think it just suddenly became Israel one day, rather than being obtained by the Zionist agency through a systematic program of Zionist sponsored economic deprivation and terror attacks against the administrators of the region and the indigenous Arab populace? Not to mention mass scale illegal immigration.

Yeah it was the Jews who were the agressors throughout ME history........Got it. Moving on

Last edited by Bertster7 (2008-04-01 13:14:20)

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Your other post admitted Islam was an intolerant religion. Intolerance that has been over come by western society. Now that we agree that Islam is an intolerant religion, how does that intolerance manifest itself into law and action I wonder.

I was never fucking arguing about intolerance. I said so in about three fucking posts if you can care to read. There are varying degrees of tolerance however and, as I said, it's an evolving religion - a younger religion. I was only ever demonstrating how your were incorrect in your assertion that Islam is inherently violent. I provided the proof that it demonstrably isn't so put up or shut up.

You didn't provide shit, all you did was open a fuckin atlas and list some Islamic countries.

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Here are the stats:

Predominantly Islamic Countries (with capital punishment details in parentheses)

Bosnia & Herzegovina (N/A)
Kosovo (N/A)
Albania (N/A)
Turkey (N/A)
Azerbaijan (N/A)
Bahrain (Murder, Treason)
Bangladesh (Murder, Drug Trafficking, Prostitute Trafficking)
Brunei (Murder, Drug Trafficking, Weapons Trafficking)
Kazakhstan (N/A)
Tajikistan (Murder, Rape, Terrorism, Genocide)
Turkmenistan (N/A)
Uzbekistan (N/A)
Pakistan (Murder, Sodomy, Gang Rape, Mutiny)
Lebanon (Murder)
Jordan (Murder)
Afghanistan  (Murder, Child Smuggling for organ use (??), Apostasy)
Iran  (Sodomy, Apostasy, Terrorism, Rape, Kidnap, Drug Trafficking, Murder)
Iraq (Murder, Rape, Drug Trafficking, Terrorism)
Malaysia (Murder, Drug Trafficking, Gun Crime)
Maldives (Murder)
Indonesia (Drug Trafficking, Terrorism)
Oman (Murder, Drug Trafficking)
Qatar  (Treason, Apostasy (no recorded executions for apostasy however))
Saudi Arabia  (Murder, Drug Trafficking, Apostasy, Witchcraft, Sexual Misconduct) <- often by sword
Syria (Treason, Murder, Desertion, Rape, Aggravated Robbery)
Kuwait (Drug Trafficking, Rape, Murder)
UAE (Murder, Drug Trafficking, Homosexuality, Rape, Treason, Apostasy, Terrorism)
Yemen (Murder, Adultery, Homosexuality, Apostasy)
Egypt (Murder, Treason, Kidnapping & Rape)
Libya (Murder, Treason)
Algeria (Treason, Terrorism, Murder, Kidnap, Aggravated Robbery)
Tunisia (N/A)
Morocco (Terrorism (soon to be abolished altogether)
Sudan  (Sodomy, Treason, Apostasy, Prostitution, Murder, Arms Trafficking, Drug Trafficking)

I've highlighted in orange bold the minority of Islamic nations that issue capital punishment for sexual 'deviancy' or 'Islamic' reasons, as per their archaic interpretation of Islam (as compared against the interpretation in the other nations).

For comparison:

USA (Murder, Espionage, Treason, Drug Trafficking)
EU (N/A)

Coupling the above facts with the fact that Islam-driven acts of terror are perpetrated by an even smaller minority of people and are rather few and far between we rationally come to the conclusion that:

Islam is predominantly peaceful. Intolerant maybe, but hey: it's a young religion.

Cam!!, This list says nothing of the violent nature and intolerance ISLAM historically is known for. You are not listing what DOES being gay in any of these countries get you, you are just saying that they do not kill them. Are you saying there is no form of violence other than killing??

lowing wrote:

I am not going to let you turn this into criminal behavior stats. We are talking about Laws and Punishment, and intolerance and violence IN THE NAME OF A RELIGION. We are not talking about bank robberies.

Now again, what does being GAY, get you in these countries that simply does not kill them??

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-01 13:12:29)

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I am not going to let you turn this into criminal behavior stats. We are talking about Laws and Punishment, and intolerance and violence IN THE NAME OF A RELIGION. We are not talking about bank robberies.

Now again, what does being GAY, get you in these countries that simply does not kill them??

Gay people in the non-nutjob countries probably emigrate or keep it a closely held secret. It can't be too hard - males holding hands is part of Islamic culture as a sign of friendship (something I found really bizarre in Jordan)! They won't be stoned to death for it. They won't be executed for it. They may be isolated and shunned by the community - but that's the tolerance issue again. There are only 8 of the 34 predominantly Islamic countries where they could come to physical harm at the hands of a particular interpretation/enforcement of Sharia Law - at the hands of the Q'uran. Now I don't know what constitutes a minority in your book but in mine it's less than 50%. And 8/34 = 23.5%.

Now you may wish to reword your original argument. Islam is probably comparatively more violent than many other religions. But being comparatively more violent does not mean that Muslims are inherently violent or that levels of violence, driven by Islam, are very high or that Islam is something that we should be 'worried about'. The fact is that violence driven by Islam, in the context of the entire Muslim world of 1.6bn people is low. It's extremely seldom in the west and in most Islamic nations. Maybe start your OP from scratch with the comparative argument. You might be onto a winner there. You aren't going to convince us that Muslims are inherently evil with this illogical tripe you've spewed for 28 pages.