RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6928|US
The historical comparison makes sense.

B.Schuss wrote:

To me, an armed society is a weak society. You may feel strong, and safe personally, because you have a gun, but in reality you have simply given up on the concept of a peaceful society and decided to "win" this fight by simply being more violent than the other guy.
We call this escalation dominance.  It is one of the main principles of deterrence.  If you are better prepared to win a fight than the other guy, he will likely back down.  Sure, it is better to avoid confrontation in almost all situations, but if the occasion should arise where confrontation is necessary...
Most DGUs in the US do not involve any shots fired...deterrence...

B.Schuss wrote:

I have suggested the following experiment: make it mandatory for every adult citizen of the US to carry a firearm at all times. Everyone gets a CWP, no gun-free zones. After 5 years ( or whatever period the stats people suggest ), check the relevant statistics ( gun crime, violent crime, robbery, murder rate per capita, etc ). Then you'll see if more guns really do make a society safer.
It might be an interesting experiment, but it is not what we are advocating.  I am advocating that people have the option to carry, not some government requirement.  A government requirement would be a bad idea, as it unnecessarily restricts people...and we all know that many people have neither the time nor inclination to properly train themselves.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6705|Northern California
I'd also think that once the armed society comes to terms with their success at deterring violence, then people would carry less often, they'd leave doors unlocked again, keys in the ignition...like they do in armed rural areas across the country. 

Bschuss, I too like your experiment, but it doesn't even have to be compulsory..just "let" the citizens do what is legally theirs to do...carry if they want to.  as people get paranoid in the suburban and urban areas, let them train, equip, train, practice, certify themselves and then carry.  At least those paranoid people could protect themselves in parking lots, on walks, in commerce, and near the home.  They could breath a little easier knowing they could protect their family from some little assholes preying on whoever comes to the park next.  I'm paranoid beyond belief that my wife, who works part time some weeknight evenings, who comes home late, may get assaulted or carjacked in our condo parking lot.  From our 2nd floor bedroom window, I have complete and total fire control over the parking lot and the area my wife would pull up.  It's not more than 15 feet from my muzzle....if I could legally carry, or if my wife could legally carry, we wouldn't have to worry as much ("as much") about me making shots from our window..I could go down, outside, around the building to the parking lot and confront anybody assaulting my wife...whereas I'd go to jail if I shot from our bedroom at someone assaulting my wife.  Yes, "gun control" in California has removed the "Castle Doctrine" from our ever diminishing list of rights...and I'd have committed murder shooting a badguy assaulting my wife in front of my eyes....just 15 feet from our home.
imortal
Member
+240|6879|Austin, TX

RAIMIUS wrote:

The historical comparison makes sense.

B.Schuss wrote:

To me, an armed society is a weak society. You may feel strong, and safe personally, because you have a gun, but in reality you have simply given up on the concept of a peaceful society and decided to "win" this fight by simply being more violent than the other guy.
We call this escalation dominance.  It is one of the main principles of deterrence.  If you are better prepared to win a fight than the other guy, he will likely back down.  Sure, it is better to avoid confrontation in almost all situations, but if the occasion should arise where confrontation is necessary...
Most DGUs in the US do not involve any shots fired...deterrence...

B.Schuss wrote:

I have suggested the following experiment: make it mandatory for every adult citizen of the US to carry a firearm at all times. Everyone gets a CWP, no gun-free zones. After 5 years ( or whatever period the stats people suggest ), check the relevant statistics ( gun crime, violent crime, robbery, murder rate per capita, etc ). Then you'll see if more guns really do make a society safer.
It might be an interesting experiment, but it is not what we are advocating.  I am advocating that people have the option to carry, not some government requirement.  A government requirement would be a bad idea, as it unnecessarily restricts people...and we all know that many people have neither the time nor inclination to properly train themselves.
That place is called Kennesaw, Georgia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesaw,_Georgia
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp? … 0911b.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a38a75857671c.htm
http://timlambert.org/2003/11/kennesaw/
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6928|US

imortal wrote:

RAIMIUS wrote:

The historical comparison makes sense.

B.Schuss wrote:

To me, an armed society is a weak society. You may feel strong, and safe personally, because you have a gun, but in reality you have simply given up on the concept of a peaceful society and decided to "win" this fight by simply being more violent than the other guy.
We call this escalation dominance.  It is one of the main principles of deterrence.  If you are better prepared to win a fight than the other guy, he will likely back down.  Sure, it is better to avoid confrontation in almost all situations, but if the occasion should arise where confrontation is necessary...
Most DGUs in the US do not involve any shots fired...deterrence...

B.Schuss wrote:

I have suggested the following experiment: make it mandatory for every adult citizen of the US to carry a firearm at all times. Everyone gets a CWP, no gun-free zones. After 5 years ( or whatever period the stats people suggest ), check the relevant statistics ( gun crime, violent crime, robbery, murder rate per capita, etc ). Then you'll see if more guns really do make a society safer.
It might be an interesting experiment, but it is not what we are advocating.  I am advocating that people have the option to carry, not some government requirement.  A government requirement would be a bad idea, as it unnecessarily restricts people...and we all know that many people have neither the time nor inclination to properly train themselves.
That place is called Kennesaw, Georgia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesaw,_Georgia
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp? … 0911b.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a38a75857671c.htm
http://timlambert.org/2003/11/kennesaw/
It is not a requirement to carry, nor is the law enforced--almost purely symbolic.  Although, even that symbolic law seems (on the surface) to have done something positive.

I find it amusing to watch the opposite of what the Brady Campaign, et.al. want actually work.  However, Kennesaw is a VERY small sample group with a certain demographic.  Is it an indication of what an armed community could be like?--YES  Is it what an armed America WOULD be like?--perhaps.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7055|Cologne, Germany

IRONCHEF wrote:

I'd also think that once the armed society comes to terms with their success at deterring violence, then people would carry less often, they'd leave doors unlocked again, keys in the ignition...like they do in armed rural areas across the country. 

Bschuss, I too like your experiment, but it doesn't even have to be compulsory..just "let" the citizens do what is legally theirs to do...carry if they want to.  as people get paranoid in the suburban and urban areas, let them train, equip, train, practice, certify themselves and then carry.  At least those paranoid people could protect themselves in parking lots, on walks, in commerce, and near the home.  They could breath a little easier knowing they could protect their family from some little assholes preying on whoever comes to the park next.  I'm paranoid beyond belief that my wife, who works part time some weeknight evenings, who comes home late, may get assaulted or carjacked in our condo parking lot.  From our 2nd floor bedroom window, I have complete and total fire control over the parking lot and the area my wife would pull up.  It's not more than 15 feet from my muzzle....if I could legally carry, or if my wife could legally carry, we wouldn't have to worry as much ("as much") about me making shots from our window..I could go down, outside, around the building to the parking lot and confront anybody assaulting my wife...whereas I'd go to jail if I shot from our bedroom at someone assaulting my wife.  Yes, "gun control" in California has removed the "Castle Doctrine" from our ever diminishing list of rights...and I'd have committed murder shooting a badguy assaulting my wife in front of my eyes....just 15 feet from our home.
but don't you find it sad, IC, that your society has come to that ? That your preceived security has reached such a low that you'd prefer to arm yourselves to feel safe again ? That you cannot trust law enforcement authorities to keep crime at a reasonable level ?

You, gentlemen, speak of deterrence. A valuable concept. However, usually violence will simply breed more violence. When I look at the implications of arming large sections of the population, I am afraid putting more guns in circulation will simply lead to more people using them. A vicious circle, if you will. And soon, you could reach a point where criminals will shoot down their potential victim "just to make sure", and then take what they want from their cold, dead hands...(sic!)

Up until this day, my life has been crime-free, if you will. I have never been the victim of a violent crime, robbery, or assault, I have never had someone break into my home. I have never had a criminal put a gun to my head. The maximum level of violence I have been exposed to was probably a bar fight. You get the idea.

I have often asked myself how I would feel if I ever became the victim of a crime. Would I freak out, buy tons of self-defense stuff ( CS gas, tazers, knifes ) or simply accept it as part of the society we live in ?
I talked to someone from New York recently, who told me that in New York they're basically being robbed at gunpoint regularly. It has become part of their daily life, if you will.
And I asked the guy "but how do you feel about that ? Doesn't it make you want to get a gun, and shoot the fucker?"
"No", he answered, "I'd rather live through that experience than risk my life for a couple of bucks and a cell phone."

I can understand that in some cases, people would want to have a gun at home, to protect their families. A shotgun, for example.
About CWP's, though, I am not so sure.

Has anyone of you ever been the victim of a crime ? If so, has it affected your views on gun laws, self defense, etc ?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6865|USA
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/aus.html

oops the results are in and gun control freaks lost
Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6362|'straya

lowing wrote:

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/aus.html

oops the results are in and gun control freaks lost
Nice to see ur using information from around 10 years ago... wat u think that gun control would happen immediently? u need to take a step in the right direction... sure there might be a short term effect of illegal guns still being around but if u dont take any action it is NOT going to get better.

oh look i can post websites to

http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

goes against ur info... whos right?

Webite previously mentioned wrote:

A British citizen is still 50 times less likely to be a victim of gun homicide than an American.


"Although armed robberies increased by nearly 20%, the number of armed robberies involving a firearm decreased to a six-year low."

Last edited by Little BaBy JESUS (2008-02-29 03:26:17)

B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7055|Cologne, Germany

lowing wrote:

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/aus.html

oops the results are in and gun control freaks lost
well, I am not a statistician, but I doubt 12 months of data is enough to determine the "success" of the operation.

Australia, much like the US, is a country with a long tradition in private gun ownership. It'll take more than a year to change the way a whole society looks at firearms.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6865|USA

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

lowing wrote:

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/aus.html

oops the results are in and gun control freaks lost
Nice to see ur using information from around 10 years ago... wat u think that gun control would happen immediently? u need to take a step in the right direction... sure there might be a short term effect of illegal guns still being around but if u dont take any action it is NOT going to get better.

oh look i can post websites to

http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

goes against ur info... whos right?

Webite previously mentioned wrote:

A British citizen is still 50 times less likely to be a victim of gun homicide than an American.


"Although armed robberies increased by nearly 20%, the number of armed robberies involving a firearm decreased to a six-year low."
http://www.gunsandcrime.org/aussiegc.html

"The media release used the usual gun controller tricks of addressing "firearm" deaths, and also including accidents and suicides.  They focus on "firearm" deaths/injuries because they can always show reductions in these if firearm availability is reduced, even though total deaths and injuries are not affected and such availability reductions might actually cause more deaths/injuries than they prevent.  They include accidents and suicides in their discussions because Australia has so few firearm murders and other homicides that the numbers and rates would not tend to upset people much, especially in comparison to other types that are much more numerous.  Also, because the numbers are so small, they vary a great deal randomly from one year to the next so that a plot will not clearly show a definite trend over time.

Gun controllers are able to upset the public much more by including suicides in their death figures.  What the gun controllers don't want people to know is that it has been proven (and confirmed) that reducing the prevalence of firearms does not reduce (total) suicide rates even though it does in fact reduce firearm suicide rates.  People wanting to commit suicide simple use another tool/method when a firearm is not available.  [Doctors typically don't believe this because they know that a firearm is more certain to kill than some other methods that are frequently used, and they've told each other that some large portion of suicides are impulsive, spur of the moment events.  What they fail to account for is that there is no shortage of equally deadly methods, and a person who fails in a suicide attempt is very likely just to try again and again (often without others even knowing) until he or she succeeds.]"
Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6362|'straya

lowing wrote:

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

lowing wrote:

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/aus.html

oops the results are in and gun control freaks lost
Nice to see ur using information from around 10 years ago... wat u think that gun control would happen immediently? u need to take a step in the right direction... sure there might be a short term effect of illegal guns still being around but if u dont take any action it is NOT going to get better.

oh look i can post websites to

http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

goes against ur info... whos right?

Webite previously mentioned wrote:

A British citizen is still 50 times less likely to be a victim of gun homicide than an American.


"Although armed robberies increased by nearly 20%, the number of armed robberies involving a firearm decreased to a six-year low."
http://www.gunsandcrime.org/aussiegc.html

"The media release used the usual gun controller tricks of addressing "firearm" deaths, and also including accidents and suicides.  They focus on "firearm" deaths/injuries because they can always show reductions in these if firearm availability is reduced, even though total deaths and injuries are not affected and such availability reductions might actually cause more deaths/injuries than they prevent.  They include accidents and suicides in their discussions because Australia has so few firearm murders and other homicides that the numbers and rates would not tend to upset people much, especially in comparison to other types that are much more numerous.  Also, because the numbers are so small, they vary a great deal randomly from one year to the next so that a plot will not clearly show a definite trend over time.

Gun controllers are able to upset the public much more by including suicides in their death figures.  What the gun controllers don't want people to know is that it has been proven (and confirmed) that reducing the prevalence of firearms does not reduce (total) suicide rates even though it does in fact reduce firearm suicide rates.  People wanting to commit suicide simple use another tool/method when a firearm is not available.  [Doctors typically don't believe this because they know that a firearm is more certain to kill than some other methods that are frequently used, and they've told each other that some large portion of suicides are impulsive, spur of the moment events.  What they fail to account for is that there is no shortage of equally deadly methods, and a person who fails in a suicide attempt is very likely just to try again and again (often without others even knowing) until he or she succeeds.]"
And yet u still havent proved ur point.
We got harsher gun laws and now our counhtry is safer than urs
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6910|NJ
I didn't read the whole thread and I'm not sure if this point has been brought up. Now I'm actually in agreeing with the "Pussification" of America, where our government has made it Illegal in several instances for human being to "defend" them self.. Case in point 9/11, if that happened in an other part of the world the terrorist would probably have been taken over. But since we live in a someone else will save us and if we do anything we'll get in the way type of society it was a huge disastor.

But on the gun aspect, the one and only real one problem I see with this is that only an insane person would purposely take the life of an other Human Being.. Now lets say in allot of these shootings the gunman in going on a rampage and other people did have guns but not the will to take the life of an other human. Then the gunman would have there weapons hence making the matter worse, now he has victoms coming to him to be the hero who can actually aid his cause..

I want everyone to really think what is it to take someones life and what that would do to you.. No matter the situtation do you think you'd walk away from that being the same person that you are today? Most soldiers who have combat training leave the battle ground with years of needing theoripy..
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6865|USA

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

lowing wrote:

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

lowing wrote:

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/aus.html

oops the results are in and gun control freaks lost
Nice to see ur using information from around 10 years ago... wat u think that gun control would happen immediently? u need to take a step in the right direction... sure there might be a short term effect of illegal guns still being around but if u dont take any action it is NOT going to get better.

oh look i can post websites to

http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

goes against ur info... whos right?


http://www.gunsandcrime.org/aussiegc.html

"The media release used the usual gun controller tricks of addressing "firearm" deaths, and also including accidents and suicides.  They focus on "firearm" deaths/injuries because they can always show reductions in these if firearm availability is reduced, even though total deaths and injuries are not affected and such availability reductions might actually cause more deaths/injuries than they prevent.  They include accidents and suicides in their discussions because Australia has so few firearm murders and other homicides that the numbers and rates would not tend to upset people much, especially in comparison to other types that are much more numerous.  Also, because the numbers are so small, they vary a great deal randomly from one year to the next so that a plot will not clearly show a definite trend over time.

Gun controllers are able to upset the public much more by including suicides in their death figures.  What the gun controllers don't want people to know is that it has been proven (and confirmed) that reducing the prevalence of firearms does not reduce (total) suicide rates even though it does in fact reduce firearm suicide rates.  People wanting to commit suicide simple use another tool/method when a firearm is not available.  [Doctors typically don't believe this because they know that a firearm is more certain to kill than some other methods that are frequently used, and they've told each other that some large portion of suicides are impulsive, spur of the moment events.  What they fail to account for is that there is no shortage of equally deadly methods, and a person who fails in a suicide attempt is very likely just to try again and again (often without others even knowing) until he or she succeeds.]"
And yet u still havent proved ur point.
We got harsher gun laws and now our counhtry is safer than urs
I will believe that when I see stats on victims deaths compared to criminals deaths per capita by a firarm.

Based on what you are saying if 10 victims are killed as opposed 100 criminals killed during a crime in the US and Australia has 8 victims killed when 40 criminals are killed during a crime, then you are safer in Australia than the US., because Australia has less total deaths. I ain't gunna buy that.

Compare victims deaths when guns are outlawed with victims deaths when guns are lawful. This is the stat that matters for this issue.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6865|USA
I will get back to ya later, I have to go to the store and buy some ammo for my Taurus 9MM, my Remington 870 tactical shotgun and my WASR-10 varient of the AK-47. Me and my sons are going to the shooting range after school and have some fun.
SEREMAKER
BABYMAKIN EXPERT √
+2,187|6782|Mountains of NC

lowing wrote:

I will get back to ya later, I have to go to the store and buy some ammo for my Taurus 9MM, my Remington 870 tactical shotgun and my WASR-10 varient of the AK-47. Me and my sons are going to the shooting range after school and have some fun.
have fun ......... I just got in a few bricks of 9mm the other day, so this Sunday I'll be slinging some hot lead down range

along with my AR-15, my 1911 and remington 700 trouble with my 700 is there is no 1000 yard ranges in my area
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6928|US

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

lowing wrote:

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/aus.html

oops the results are in and gun control freaks lost
Nice to see ur using information from around 10 years ago... wat u think that gun control would happen immediently? u need to take a step in the right direction... sure there might be a short term effect of illegal guns still being around but if u dont take any action it is NOT going to get better.

oh look i can post websites to

http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

goes against ur info... whos right?

Webite previously mentioned wrote:

A British citizen is still 50 times less likely to be a victim of gun homicide than an American.


"Although armed robberies increased by nearly 20%, the number of armed robberies involving a firearm decreased to a six-year low."
Homicide=-9%
Armed Robbery=+20%
That doesn't say much to the effectiveness of gun control in Australia, IMO.

Even worse in the UK:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

Total offences reported in the UK (including air guns and replicas):
1997/98 12805
2006/07 18489

Last edited by RAIMIUS (2008-02-29 07:33:21)

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