GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6613

Dersmikner wrote:

Here are some honest thoughts:

1. My family used to be poor, poor, poor. Matter of fact my Dad used to say "we're just 'po', there's no 'or' to it." Dad and Mom worked their asses off, Dad kicked ass in college, got a scholarship to medical school, and those days are long past. I have no sympathy for the poor. If you WANT to get out of it, you can. Does it take time and hard work? Absolutely, but in America EVERYONE can rise above poverty. There are two kinds of people in the world: The kind who get things done, and the kind who make excuses why they don't get things done. I call bullshit on anyone who is poor.

2. I am in favor of some form of limits to voting. I believe that if you don't pay taxes (and I'm not talking about filing a return, I'm talking about making a net contribution in the form of a check to the government), own property, or serve in the military you have no right to vote. Sorry. If you don't contribute to the community coffers or serve to defend them why should you have the right to determine how other people's money is spent? No asshole off the street can walk into my home and tell me how to spend the household money because he hasn't contributed to the household bank account. Same principle. If you don't add to the stash, you don't get to determine how the stash is spent. I'd even be for graduated voting. You can pick the level of taxes you want to pay, and your vote counts along those lines. The more you want to contribute the more say you get in how the money is spent. If you don't want to pay any tax at all, you get no vote. Of course, that might cost you in the long run when legislation goes against you, but that's the way it would work. You could cap it somehow so Bill Gates couldn't simply buy the entire government, but I think that someone who pays $100,000+ in taxes should have more say than someone who makes $20,000 a year and gets an "earned income tax credit" which is basically just a handout. Why should that person have as much say when they've not nearly made the contribution the other guy has?

3. Let's just get to the crux of it: You "socialists" either don't have any money or you have some yourself but you want to tell me how I have to spend mine. Personal property rights are something that simply escapes you. If I wake up in the morning and I go to work and I create something through my own labor and someone is willing to pay me for that, who the fuck are you to tell me that I have to take that money and support my fellow man? Who are you to tell me I have to pay more for better schools for someone else's kids, or for a breakfast program for the poor, or for dental care for the needy or healthcare for the sick and elderly? If YOU want to donate to that shit, feel free, but what makes you think you can watch me go to work, watch me earn money, then waltz into my bank account and decide to take some of what I'VE EARNED and use it for what you think is a noble cause? Go live in a tent and give away ALL YOUR MONEY, but don't try to legislate theft and call it right. It's still theft. This country was founded on the idea that we are free people, with the right to earn without undue taxation, and that the government should only be here to meet the bare essentials of rule and order. Anyone remember the Boston Tea Party? Anyone know the phrase "taxation without representation"? You're going down the very road that this country was founded to avoid. Stay the fuck out of my wallet. Give me a military to keep us from getting invaded, pave roads because individuals can't, provide police and firefighters, and stay the hell out of everything else. The market works pretty damned well when it's not interfered with.

Or we can go with your theory. I went to work about 50 hours this week, then I went in for 5 hours yesterday, and I'll make a little 2 hour jaunt up there today, so I CAN HAVE MORE SHIT, not so you can earn more tax dollars to spend as you see fit. If you're a "socialist" to any degree, you're nothing more than a common fucking lazy thief who doesn't have the balls to break and enter. You're trying to legalize your theft and that makes you not just a thief, but a hypocritical pussy. The worst kind of shitbag.
thats a real unamerican point of view.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6375|North Carolina

PureFodder wrote:

If you actually, honestly worked out all the things that have benefitted you in your life that came from public spending you'd be amazed. Using your personal story, your poor parents wouldn't have been able to afford to go to school in the first place, hence you'd probably be poor or never have been born without any socialism.
Bam...  That's pretty much the whole gist of the flaw in Dersmikner's thinking.  He forgets that we've had social programs so long that he really can't argue that anyone who is working class has made their way to wealth without some form of socialistic spending on the part of society.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6659|Tampa Bay Florida
"I call bullshit on anyone who is poor"

Wow dude.  Begining to sound like lowing there.
Dersmikner
Member
+147|6468|Texas
Bullshit. My Dad worked during the day reading meters for the power company and at night as assistant manager of a 7-11. My Mom worked at a day care. They saved money for 4 years and my Dad then went to college during the day and worked at night. We qualified for government housing and food stamps, and he took neither. He made a 4.0 and got a merit based scholarship to med school, and took out loans for the rest. Your titty-baby, "save the poor", "nobody is responsible for their own success" system didn't do shit for us. We didn't need it. People who don't succeed fail on their own merits, not because they didn't get the appropriate boost from others who did.
Dersmikner
Member
+147|6468|Texas
By the way, I won't be here to respond for a while. I'm going to work to get ready for the 7:30 a.m. meeting tomorrow, so I can run a successful business... FOR MYSELF. My only regret is that socialist fucks will, in the form of taxes, steal about 40 minutes worth of the 2 hours I'll work while they're all playing computer games and talking philosophy.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6255

Dersmikner wrote:

Bullshit. My Dad worked during the day reading meters for the power company and at night as assistant manager of a 7-11. My Mom worked at a day care. They saved money for 4 years and my Dad then went to college during the day and worked at night. We qualified for government housing and food stamps, and he took neither. He made a 4.0 and got a merit based scholarship to med school, and took out loans for the rest. Your titty-baby, "save the poor", "nobody is responsible for their own success" system didn't do shit for us. We didn't need it. People who don't succeed fail on their own merits, not because they didn't get the appropriate boost from others who did.
But your parents did go to school right as did you. Kindegarten and all that, obviously publicly funded. Merit based scholarship, that would be public money funding your dad through med school?

Have you ever written anything whatsoever off of your taxes. Any reduction from the simple appropriate percentage of your income paid in taxes? Those reductions are welfare.

If you're running a small business, you're probably one of the largest recipients of socialism in the US. Tax breaks for small businesses are probably a bigger percentage of the businesses profits than corporations get in order to help prop up small businesses and keep them going in compatition with larger, more powerful companies. Free markets tend to massacre small business ventures.
Dersmikner
Member
+147|6468|Texas
1. Dad went to Baylor medical school and it was private scholarship money, given to the person with the best college grades, irrespective of income.

2. Have I ever written anything off my taxes? That statement is so full of shit it offends me. You're probably taxed at about 10% of your actual income, if you're taxed at all. If I write off everything I can find, and some things I make up, I'm STILL taxed at about 25%. Sure they call my bracket more, and they call your bracket more, but I'm talking about "effective" rates. You're telling me that if the government takes 10% of your money, and they were going to take 35% of mine, but I find a loophole that cuts my rate down to 25%, that the 10% I found I could save, which means I'm still paying more than you, is welfare? Dude, you need to move to a commune in the Far East and leave the land of Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson to the people who understand why they built this nation.

3. Recipient of socialist benefits as a small business owner? Are you shitting me? What alleged tax breaks are we talking about here?

Here's a partial list of my taxes, and you let me know where the breaks are:

Income tax
Self-employment tax
Social security tax
Matching social security tax for my employees (that's right, they pay $x a check, I have to pay the same on their behalf)
Matching my employees retirement contributions at the same rate my company matches my own
Franchise tax (not sure why they call it that)
The new Texas professional services tax of about 1% of gross income
Texas Workforce Commission tax
I have to collect and remit sales tax (doesn't cost me anything but labor, time, and accounting fees)
Inventory tax
Personal property tax on all our desks, computers, etc, EVERY year on the same shit, over and over and over again for the state, city, county, and the school district

I could go on and on. What fucking tax beak are you talking about? You're spouting shit out your ass. You find me one real live example of a small business tax break and let me know what it is. Otherwise you're talking rhetoric.
DSRTurtle
Member
+56|6655

Dersmikner wrote:

3. Recipient of socialist benefits as a small business owner? Are you shitting me? What alleged tax breaks are we talking about here?

Here's a partial list of my taxes, and you let me know where the breaks are:

Income tax
Self-employment tax
Social security tax
Matching social security tax for my employees (that's right, they pay $x a check, I have to pay the same on their behalf)
Matching my employees retirement contributions at the same rate my company matches my own
Franchise tax (not sure why they call it that)
The new Texas professional services tax of about 1% of gross income
Texas Workforce Commission tax
I have to collect and remit sales tax (doesn't cost me anything but labor, time, and accounting fees)
Inventory tax
Personal property tax on all our desks, computers, etc, EVERY year on the same shit, over and over and over again for the state, city, county, and the school district

I could go on and on. What fucking tax beak are you talking about? You're spouting shit out your ass. You find me one real live example of a small business tax break and let me know what it is. Otherwise you're talking rhetoric.
The perfect example of replacing all taxes with the fair tax.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6731

JFK was the worst ever.  Or just as bad.  But he was lucky he did not rule during the internet era.
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6426|The edge of sanity
Dersminker do you like driving on roads? Do you like cheap water? How about libraries or street lights or traffic signals or lots of other shit you use everyday? If yes, then shut the fuck up you really don't have any idea where your taxes exactly go do you?
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|6686

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Dersminker do you like driving on roads? Do you like cheap water? How about libraries or street lights or traffic signals or lots of other shit you use everyday? If yes, then shut the fuck up you really don't have any idea where your taxes exactly go do you?
He pays taxes for the roads and water as do i and others... what a pointless post you made...

Dersmikner you have riled the handout folks... lol
Love is the answer
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6426|The edge of sanity

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Dersminker do you like driving on roads? Do you like cheap water? How about libraries or street lights or traffic signals or lots of other shit you use everyday? If yes, then shut the fuck up you really don't have any idea where your taxes exactly go do you?
He pays taxes for the roads and water as do i and others... what a pointless post you made...

Dersmikner you have riled the handout folks... lol
Idiot. I'm trying to make a point about the fact that his taxes on everything would go towards all programs wether it be roads water or whatever else we institue by goverment.
TSI
Cholera in the time of love
+247|5950|Toronto
I think that if there's one point to be made, it's this: if people are going to be taxed, then they should have the right to choose where their money goes.
In Canada, people are taxed between 15-45%. For what? To support a shitty social healthcare, a shitty public education, a shittier road network, and a loser of an aboriginal compensation program.
Forgive me for berating our governemnts like this, but my philosophy is that public is lowest common denominator. Ergo, if you make a service or an industry public, it will suck. Don't ask me for examples: just look out your window.
However, I do support those who are less fortunate THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN: political refugees, victims of crime, etc. For those who come off the gutter asking for welfare while all they do is sit around and smoke all day--GTFO your arse and get a job! everyone can work, as proven by Stalin in the 1930s.  Aye, it's a violent example, but it proves a point. I think, if people wnat welfare, then they have to work, however menial their job is. The TVA under Roosevelt in the 30s did just that--lots of unemployed people doing hard, beneficial work. It was just a temporary thing, sure, but it helps people gain skills, experience, and it benefits the state.
Some of you will argue that I have contradicted myself: to that I say, "not quite"
I do support public works. I do not, however, support public services. I think that if people can afford it, they should be able to get higher quality care. For those who can't afford it, but who are just lazy, ignorant or just stupid, then it's tough luck. I'm not going to help pay for your cigarettes, buddy. If you can prove to me that you have the will to work, that you are willing to learn, then I'll hire you, and I'll help you. But one has to work to earn help. Period.

ADDENDUM: and France's publicly funded universities are the worst. more proof, if it was required.

So, I think I should have the right to choose where my money goes--to which programs, social or public works or whatever. I'd pay for more doctors, better roads, immigrant integration (i'm an FOPlane myself). If I have to pay, then I'll do it under that condition

inb4feds!

Last edited by TSI (2008-02-24 18:22:40)

I like pie.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6525

Dersmikner wrote:

I am in favor of some form of limits to voting.
Sorry, on grounds other than age, you lost me right there. Quite the ridiculous concept matching tax money to voting power in a country where everyone can own a gun. I take it you're a fan of either a 'Mad Max' anarchistic kind of world or a locked down police state.... The worst forms of corruption are endemic in the realms of those with gigantic piles of money. Interest groups and lobbyists controlling a country is the road to ruin.

PS I'm a socialist from a poor background whose parents worked hard to build and own their own house and send there kids to university. I worked hard and earned a degree in engineering and now pay tens of thousands in taxes gladly. It's the free third level education here in Ireland that enabled my intelligence not to be squandered simply for lack of a 'hand up'.

PPS Your highly idealised way of looking at things doesn't really account for the reality of situations where the total number of jobs < total number of adults. It also doesn't really account for the fact that the world will need 'low income breadline nobodies' to clean toilets, handle garbage, flip burgers, etc. The fact of the matter is this: Everybody can't be rich. There has to be poor people in a capitalistic system (in any kind of free market system tbh). There are a finite number of good jobs and a perpetual necessity for people to fill shitty low pay crap jobs.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-02-25 03:00:14)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX
if people are going to be taxed, then they should have the right to choose where their money goes.
They do, every so often they elect a government, local government, council etc. who then taxes and spends based on their manifesto - or at least thats how its supposed to work

Dersmikner wrote:

Dad went to Baylor medical school and it was private scholarship money
If it had been a public scholarship he would have turned it down? Either way your Dad did take a handout.
Given the choice do you drive on turnpikes or freeways?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
PureFodder
Member
+225|6255

Dersmikner wrote:

1. Dad went to Baylor medical school and it was private scholarship money, given to the person with the best college grades, irrespective of income.

2. Have I ever written anything off my taxes? That statement is so full of shit it offends me. You're probably taxed at about 10% of your actual income, if you're taxed at all. If I write off everything I can find, and some things I make up, I'm STILL taxed at about 25%. Sure they call my bracket more, and they call your bracket more, but I'm talking about "effective" rates. You're telling me that if the government takes 10% of your money, and they were going to take 35% of mine, but I find a loophole that cuts my rate down to 25%, that the 10% I found I could save, which means I'm still paying more than you, is welfare? Dude, you need to move to a commune in the Far East and leave the land of Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson to the people who understand why they built this nation.

3. Recipient of socialist benefits as a small business owner? Are you shitting me? What alleged tax breaks are we talking about here?

Here's a partial list of my taxes, and you let me know where the breaks are:

Income tax
Self-employment tax
Social security tax
Matching social security tax for my employees (that's right, they pay $x a check, I have to pay the same on their behalf)
Matching my employees retirement contributions at the same rate my company matches my own
Franchise tax (not sure why they call it that)
The new Texas professional services tax of about 1% of gross income
Texas Workforce Commission tax
I have to collect and remit sales tax (doesn't cost me anything but labor, time, and accounting fees)
Inventory tax
Personal property tax on all our desks, computers, etc, EVERY year on the same shit, over and over and over again for the state, city, county, and the school district

I could go on and on. What fucking tax beak are you talking about? You're spouting shit out your ass. You find me one real live example of a small business tax break and let me know what it is. Otherwise you're talking rhetoric.
Tax breaks for small companies are large than that for large companies. Given a free market your company would be much more likely to be crushed by larger company with it's economies of scale and ability to run sections of it's business at a loss in order to destroy small companies and take over their market share.

I'll give you more than one example of a tax break for small business.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&am … &meta=

You're still ignoring the question. Did you and your parents go to school? Ever use the internet, a plane, a computer, anything that uses a laser in it or it's manufacture process, almost any plastics, drugs, high tech products. If the answer is yes, then you couldn't have done it without socialism.
Dersmikner
Member
+147|6468|Texas

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Dersminker do you like driving on roads? Do you like cheap water? How about libraries or street lights or traffic signals or lots of other shit you use everyday? If yes, then shut the fuck up you really don't have any idea where your taxes exactly go do you?
I know where my tax money is spent. I'm intimately familiar with the way money is spent here in America.

I'm ALL FOR roads, clean water, the military, police, firefighters, etc. These are goods and services which can not be provided by the individual for himself.

I'm 100% AGAINST government cheese, food stamps, subsidized housing, free lunch and breakfast programs, socialized or subsidized healthcare, etc., etc., etc. These are all goods and services which individuals can and should fund themselves.

I guess I'm just about personal responsibility. Sorry. I was brought up when we did for ourselves instead of asking the great anonymous all-powerful "government" to do everything for us.

This country has gone to shit in just 50 years. I am embarrassed by the majority of the youth of America and how far they've fallen from what Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Ben Franklin and Alexander Hamilton envisioned when they founded this nearly formerly great nation, and I shudder to think of what the future will hold when the youth of today is in charge.

Last edited by Dersmikner (2008-02-25 07:35:08)

PureFodder
Member
+225|6255

Dersmikner wrote:

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Dersminker do you like driving on roads? Do you like cheap water? How about libraries or street lights or traffic signals or lots of other shit you use everyday? If yes, then shut the fuck up you really don't have any idea where your taxes exactly go do you?
I know where my tax money is spent. I'm intimately familiar with the way money is spent here in America.

I'm ALL FOR roads, clean water, the military, police, firefighters, etc. These are goods and services which can not be provided by the individual for himself.

I'm 100% AGAINST government cheese, food stamps, subsidized housing, free lunch and breakfast programs, socialized or subsidized healthcare, etc., etc., etc. These are all goods and services which individuals can and should fund themselves.

I guess I'm just about personal responsibility. Sorry. I was brought up when we did for ourselves instead of asking the great anonymous all-powerful "government" to do everything for us.

This country has gone to shit in just 50 years. I am embarrassed by the majority of the youth of America and how far they've fallen from what Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Ben Franklin and Alexander Hamilton envisioned when they founded this nearly formerly great nations, and I shudder to think of what the future will hold when the youth of today is in charge.
Are you happy to hugely ramp up wages of the poor to cover the additional costs that were covered by these programmes? If you're running a small company, chances are you'd be the one who gets screwed by this.

Look up Thomas Paine's work. The popularity that was needed to incite the war of independence was to a large part due to his writing. He disagrees with you.

Answer the questions, did you or your parents go to kindergarten? Do you accept tax breaks thare unavailable to huge businesses thusly artificially increasing your small business's competativeness thanks to government handouts?
Dersmikner
Member
+147|6468|Texas
I'm FINE with public school systems. I view schools the same way I view roads and missiles. You really can't effectively go buy your own. I'm happier with a voucher system that would force the public schools to compete, but I can live with it as it is, though I'm not a firm believer that those without children should pay school taxes. Children are a choice. I shouldn't pay to support your personal preferences.

As to small business tax breaks, I looked at your list, and I didn't see any, other than that manufacturing break, which were specific to small business, and even then you're not talking about some kind of handout, it's simply a reprieve from theft. And no, I don't get or use (and never have) any special breaks for small businesses.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6525
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7243841.stm

$167bn in rebates because the US economy is heading for the gutter. An economy managed by Bush and co for the majority of his tenure. An economy that Bush already granted rather generous tax cuts. Why hasn't Dersmikner's policy worked well in reality?

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-02-25 07:53:49)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6375|North Carolina

Dersmikner wrote:

You're probably taxed at about 10% of your actual income, if you're taxed at all.
Fodder lives in Britain.  I'm sure he's taxed a shitload more than you or I.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6525

Turquoise wrote:

Dersmikner wrote:

You're probably taxed at about 10% of your actual income, if you're taxed at all.
Fodder lives in Britain.  I'm sure he's taxed a shitload more than you or I.
On a pure percentage of gross basis I pay the Irish exchequer about 27.4% of my income.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6375|North Carolina

Dersmikner wrote:

3. Recipient of socialist benefits as a small business owner? Are you shitting me? What alleged tax breaks are we talking about here?
Actually, this demonstrates an excellent point.  As a small business owner, you don't get anywhere near the tax cuts that corporations do.

If anything, the American tax system subsidizes big business more than anyone else.  So if you don't like handouts, then you should be outraged at corporate pork and corporate tax deductions far more than any welfare programs.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6375|North Carolina

CameronPoe wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Dersmikner wrote:

You're probably taxed at about 10% of your actual income, if you're taxed at all.
Fodder lives in Britain.  I'm sure he's taxed a shitload more than you or I.
On a pure percentage of gross basis I pay the Irish exchequer about 27.4% of my income.
Ouch...  That's pretty hardcore, but you do have better social programs in Ireland, right?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6525

Turquoise wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Fodder lives in Britain.  I'm sure he's taxed a shitload more than you or I.
On a pure percentage of gross basis I pay the Irish exchequer about 27.4% of my income.
Ouch...  That's pretty hardcore, but you do have better social programs in Ireland, right?
Universal free healthcare; free first, second & third level education (no fees); grants for low income families sending kids to third level institutions; child benefit cheques; family allowance cheques; free dental care for low income families; unemployment benefits; state pension; free public transport for the elderly; etc., etc.

We pay 21% Value Added Tax (VAT) also on all goods and services (kind of like sales tax in the US I think).

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2024 Jeff Minard