What about Orthodox Jews?Shadowolf wrote:
Yeah the OT has some barbaric rules, but the Jews realized that they are not suitable for modern times.
But unlike Jews, there are thousands of Islamic fundamentalists who still obey barbaric laws.
Agreed.Stingray24 wrote:
The difference is the Mosaic law was enforced on both men and women back when what we consider barbaric practices were quite common place ... this in contrast to Sharia law in 2008 A.D which is heavily biased against women.sergeriver wrote:
And how is that better than the Sharia law? Both of them seem a bit barbaric IMO.Stingray24 wrote:
Correct, OT. However, warfare and capital punishment is not the only subject of the OT, which I am sure you are aware. Stoning was for murder, adultery, or homosexuality for both men and women. A rebellious son was also stoned by the leaders of the city if he would not obey his father and mother.
Serge...last time I checked, no other religion in modern times has been responsible for suicide bombing coffee shops, cutting off people's heads, hanging burned bodies off of bridges, killing young women on their way home from school, and killing people for watching a soccer match, etc etc etc.
When you try and compare that to any other religion, it makes you look like a dope.
When you try and compare that to any other religion, it makes you look like a dope.
Last edited by usmarine (2008-01-31 11:58:28)
Orthodox Jews aren't violent, they are just following the rules (the non barbaric ones) extremely closely.sergeriver wrote:
What about Orthodox Jews?Shadowolf wrote:
Yeah the OT has some barbaric rules, but the Jews realized that they are not suitable for modern times.
But unlike Jews, there are thousands of Islamic fundamentalists who still obey barbaric laws.
Read the OP again. I acknowledge Islam needs Reformation, but you can't generalize. Most Muslims are peaceful as most Jews or Christians. When you say that a whole community is a disease that must be cleansed with bullets and nukes you DO look like a dope.usmarine wrote:
Serge...last time I checked, no other religion in modern times has been responsible for suicide bombing coffee shops, cutting off people's heads, hanging burned bodies off of bridges, killing young women on their way home from school, and killing people for watching a soccer match, etc etc etc.
When you try and compare that to any other religion, it makes you look like a dope.
My sig was muppet bait you tard. Seems you enjoyed that flavor.sergeriver wrote:
but you can't generalize. Most Muslims are peaceful as most Jews or Christians.
I am not generalizing, I am giving examples. And I am not talking about muslims, I am talking about islam.
Muslims, Islam...don't be hypocrite. At least I admit I had some prejudices after 9/11. I was always profiling people before climbing a plane, and I admit that I checked on Muslims and even today I do it. It's called media brainwashing. I want to believe they will do nothing but I still check them.usmarine wrote:
My sig was muppet bait you tard. Seems you enjoyed that flavor.sergeriver wrote:
but you can't generalize. Most Muslims are peaceful as most Jews or Christians.
I am not generalizing, I am giving examples. And I am not talking about muslims, I am talking about islam.
Yes because in the 70's and 80's it was a bunch of Baptists hijacking airplanes all over the world....sergeriver wrote:
It's called media brainwashing.
Ya, that's the medias fault.
Everything you listed has taken place here in Ireland. Done by supposed Christians.usmarine wrote:
Serge...last time I checked, no other religion in modern times has been responsible for suicide bombing coffee shops, cutting off people's heads, hanging burned bodies off of bridges, killing young women on their way home from school, and killing people for watching a soccer match, etc etc etc.
When you try and compare that to any other religion, it makes you look like a dope.
suicide bombing coffee shops.............CHECK
cutting off people's heads ............................CHECK
hanging burned bodies off of bridges ........................CHECK
killing young women on their way home from school........................CHECK
killing people for watching a soccer match...............................CHECK
I scored out Suicide, but allot of bombers blew themselves up constructing and planting bombs here. Same for the Baltic states.
So the only difference I can see is that Christian terrorists haven't the balls, commitment or faith in their chosen religion to take themselves out when they do a mass murder.
The number of worldwide Islamic terrorists overshadows the number of terrorists of any other religion by far.
Wow, your arguments arn't very strong. You didn't even bother to make an effort other then throw around poorly researched ideas. If your going to lie, least you can do is entertain us. I mean, how stupid your Christianity argument is: "The actions of the KKK"? WTF, the KKK was anti-Catholicism you moron, it wasn't a war within Christianitysergeriver wrote:
Let me say that I don't understand Organized Religion and the way people worship something they can't see. But I respect their beliefs. I find the vilification of Islam some people make amazing and ignorant. Do you think Islam is the only Religion that promotes violence? Well, it's not. Islam promotes violence of course, but so does Christianity and so does Judaism, the three Abrahamic Religions. All we must remember is it doesn't matter what Religion is promoting the violence, most "believers" within the said Religion are innocent people, and they are victims of the generalization and prejudice for the actions of a few extremists. We all know the violence related to Islam. It's in everyday's media, it's in every Lowing's post. It's real and undeniable. But it's unfair to Muslims (there's a member here who is constantly bashed for being Muslim) to say that Islam is a disease or BS like that courtesy of usmarine. I won't make a list of episodes of violence related to Islam, we know what's going on in the Middle East and North Africa as well. There're 1.5 billion Muslims that don't commit acts of violence, and maybe a few thousands that do. I won't write a list of Islamic terrorist organizations, it would be quite long, and, like I said, we all know what these assholes do everyday. These extremists must be fought and killed if possible. The worst crime we can commit is to generalize about the 1.5 billion mentioned above.
VIOLENT ISLAM - CHECKED
Let's check Christianity. What should be said about Christians if the same vilification took place with their Religion for the acts of Ku Klux Klan in the US, the troubles between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland, the Army of God and their anthrax letters, the Christian group (Tsar Lazaar?) that killed thousands in Serbia and now wants to nuke Kosovo, and who knows how many more groups. What about the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Christianization of the Americas during the XVI-XVIII centuries. What about the Bible? Everyone's talking about the hatred prevalent in the Qu'ran, but what happens with the Old Testament, holy book for both Judaism and Christianity. It contains a lot of violence and hatred as well.
VIOLENT CHRISTIANITY - CHECKED
Let's check Judaism. What about Irgun and Lehi and their peaceful contribution to the creation of Israel? Kahanists? And Israel and its state terrorism? You think that's not terrorism, well you are wrong, it is terrorism at its best. Israel is no better no worse than those extremists they fight everyday. Some facts: the Qibya Massacre (1953), the Lavon Affair (1954), the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre (1994), the Lebanon War (2006), the everyday actions of the IDF in the OT's and a lot more I don't remember.
VIOLENT JUDAISM - CHECKED
There are other Religion promoting terrorism, violence, hatred, but these three are IMO the most important Religions in the World. And as we can see in everyone of them there're extremists and radicals who use the Religion as the excuse to commit acts of violence, hiding political agendas and economic interests, not very Religious motivations. So, it's clear that any Religion can be violent when the extremists use them to justify their acts. But the generalization and persecution of a whole group for the actions of those extremists is also a sad crime.
"you know life is what we make it, and a chance is like a picture, it'd be nice if you just take it"
I didn't do any research, I just wrote what came to my mind. And yes the KKK members are Christians. Where in hell did I say they were Catholics? Take your time to address the whole thing or STFU.d4rkst4r wrote:
Wow, your arguments arn't very strong. You didn't even bother to make an effort other then throw around poorly researched ideas. If your going to lie, least you can do is entertain us. I mean, how stupid your Christianity argument is: "The actions of the KKK"? WTF, the KKK was anti-Catholicism you moron, it wasn't a war within Christianity
Last edited by sergeriver (2008-01-31 13:29:51)
What the hell is with the personal attack. So in my few paragraphs you have judged me to be "no example of self-control and a worship-yourself type of guy".....hmmmmmmm....you don't know jack shit about me or who I am or what I believe in. Obviously you didn't read what I wrote very carefully. I, in no way blamed a whole religion, in fact, I reiterated many times in this post and previous posts that Radical Islam is the problem, not Islam itself and what arguments did I have against Jews and Christians??? Huh???What???G3|Genius wrote:
boo hooDeathBecomesYu wrote:
The difference right now is that Islam is under attack basically from all sides. It is being attacked or high jacked from within its own believers and its under attack because some of its believers want a world of strict Islam. Normal Muslims who go about their business and want to just practice their religion in many countries outside of the middle east are even under attack from this radical form of Islam.
poor islam.
And, I disagree. Remember the whole teddy bear incident? That was not Al Queda or Hezbolah. Those were your "Normal Muslims who go about their business" who were calling for that British teacher's death.
Islam is fundamentally fucked up.
As for most of your arguments against Jews and Christians: people will lash out when they are being oppressed. It takes a very strong person to actually turn the other cheek. Ultimately, that's what Christians are called to do, but seeing as you are no example of self-control and a worship-yourself type of guy, I think you'll understand how difficult it is to turn the other cheek.
People are fallible. We all make mistakes, we all make bad decisions, and we are all (for the most part) selfish. Religion teaches us how to behave well, but it's difficult! Don't blame religion. Blame the individual. And particularly, do not blame the people who so contort their religion beyond recognition, because they tend to have evil intentions rather than good ones. They are not following a religion.
edit clarification
In fact, I was raised Christian and married a Muslim woman. So I know quite well what both sides of the story are and what is going on inside the Muslim community here and abroad. You see, what is going on affects my family directly and as many people have said here, its not the whole of the religion, its the people who pervert it for their own cause. Read again what I said! I did not blame a religion, I blame the radical elements of each. But at this moment and time....there is no other religion being scrutinized, high jacked and blamed for violence more than Islam and again it is because of the actions of radical Islam. Normal Muslims will eventually have to step up and take their religion back or it will only get worse in my opinion.
Most Muslims are peaceful and want nothing to do with radical or strict forms of Sharia law. Most muslims that I personally know have come to the U.S. to be away from their home country so they could practice their religion with freedom to do so. They do not believe in hanging teachers with named Teddy bears and my wife found no offense to that at all. The protesters were NOT normal Muslims and you are sadly misinformed about Islam. If you want to say Islam is fundamentally messed up, you have to include Christianity and Judaism in the same breath, you need to take a history course in how Islam came about. Oh by the way...radical Islam is not only AQ or Hezbollah...it takes many forms by many groups and is easily flamed in situations like the Teddy bear incident.
So with all that said......Which religion mentioned in the above posts needs the most reform TODAY...not 2000 years ago....TODAY?
Islam.rawls2 wrote:
So with all that said......Which religion mentioned in the above posts needs the most reform TODAY...not 2000 years ago....TODAY?
I agree. Next question: What can the rest of the world do, or what does Islam need from us to shake this ugly stigma off its back? Money, Western non-involvement, or "fill in the blank"?sergeriver wrote:
Islam.rawls2 wrote:
So with all that said......Which religion mentioned in the above posts needs the most reform TODAY...not 2000 years ago....TODAY?
We need to stop generalizing and making feel them bad about their Religion. We must fight the extremists, not Islam. Moderate Muslims need to take distance from extremists and radicals. If moderate Muslims perceive terrorism as an activity against Islam (not Lowing that's not appeasement again) then extremists will be alone, and they'll end without followers. This task is easier if moderate Muslims don't feel we think they all are extremists.rawls2 wrote:
I agree. Next question: What can the rest of the world do, or what does Islam need from us to shake this ugly stigma off its back? Money, Western non-involvement, or "fill in the blank"?sergeriver wrote:
Islam.rawls2 wrote:
So with all that said......Which religion mentioned in the above posts needs the most reform TODAY...not 2000 years ago....TODAY?
In order for that to happen though they have to prove they will take action against the extremists, they rarely publicly speak out against them, or assist in their capture etc.sergeriver wrote:
We need to stop generalizing and making feel them bad about their Religion. We must fight the extremists, not Islam. Moderate Muslims need to take distance from extremists and radicals. If moderate Muslims perceive terrorism as an activity against Islam (not Lowing that's not appeasement again) then extremists will be alone, and they'll end without followers. This task is easier if moderate Muslims don't feel we think they all are extremists.rawls2 wrote:
I agree. Next question: What can the rest of the world do, or what does Islam need from us to shake this ugly stigma off its back? Money, Western non-involvement, or "fill in the blank"?sergeriver wrote:
Islam.
Assist in their capture you say? Would you do it? I mean those wackos are assholes and don't care if you are Christian, Jew, Muslim, if you get in the middle they'll kill you. So, a regular Joe can't do much about them.M.O.A.B wrote:
In order for that to happen though they have to prove they will take action against the extremists, they rarely publicly speak out against them, or assist in their capture etc.sergeriver wrote:
We need to stop generalizing and making feel them bad about their Religion. We must fight the extremists, not Islam. Moderate Muslims need to take distance from extremists and radicals. If moderate Muslims perceive terrorism as an activity against Islam (not Lowing that's not appeasement again) then extremists will be alone, and they'll end without followers. This task is easier if moderate Muslims don't feel we think they all are extremists.rawls2 wrote:
I agree. Next question: What can the rest of the world do, or what does Islam need from us to shake this ugly stigma off its back? Money, Western non-involvement, or "fill in the blank"?
Last edited by sergeriver (2008-01-31 14:39:46)
This is what confuses me the most. You admit that the regular joes can't do much. You don't want us doing anything cuz we just make the situation worse. Who's left? The UN? What to do? We do nothing and wait? They do nothing and wait? That's why this debate just goes in circles. IMO, making them feel sorry for there religion doesn't change the situation one bit. Speaking in present terms, Islam needs to be reformed now. The moderate Muslims no matter what will get caught in the middle as long as the extremist are allowed to blend in with the populace. That is not our fault. That is the extremist fault.sergeriver wrote:
Assist in their capture you say? Would you do it? I mean those wackos are assholes and don't care if you are Christian, Jew, Muslim, if you get in the middle they'll kill you. So, a regular Joe can't do much about them.M.O.A.B wrote:
In order for that to happen though they have to prove they will take action against the extremists, they rarely publicly speak out against them, or assist in their capture etc.sergeriver wrote:
We need to stop generalizing and making feel them bad about their Religion. We must fight the extremists, not Islam. Moderate Muslims need to take distance from extremists and radicals. If moderate Muslims perceive terrorism as an activity against Islam (not Lowing that's not appeasement again) then extremists will be alone, and they'll end without followers. This task is easier if moderate Muslims don't feel we think they all are extremists.
just because a group of people belonging to a religion are violent does not mean the religion itself promotes violence.even if it may be a technical thing i don't think it's fair to call it "Violent Islam/Christianity/Judaism," but rather Violent Muslims/Christians/Jews.sergeriver wrote:
Let me say that I don't understand Organized Religion and the way people worship something they can't see. But I respect their beliefs. I find the vilification of Islam some people make amazing and ignorant. Do you think Islam is the only Religion that promotes violence? Well, it's not. Islam promotes violence of course, but so does Christianity and so does Judaism, the three Abrahamic Religions. All we must remember is it doesn't matter what Religion is promoting the violence, most "believers" within the said Religion are innocent people, and they are victims of the generalization and prejudice for the actions of a few extremists. We all know the violence related to Islam. It's in everyday's media, it's in every Lowing's post. It's real and undeniable. But it's unfair to Muslims (there's a member here who is constantly bashed for being Muslim) to say that Islam is a disease or BS like that courtesy of usmarine. I won't make a list of episodes of violence related to Islam, we know what's going on in the Middle East and North Africa as well. There're 1.5 billion Muslims that don't commit acts of violence, and maybe a few thousands that do. I won't write a list of Islamic terrorist organizations, it would be quite long, and, like I said, we all know what these assholes do everyday. These extremists must be fought and killed if possible. The worst crime we can commit is to generalize about the 1.5 billion mentioned above.
VIOLENT ISLAM - CHECKED
Let's check Christianity. What should be said about Christians if the same vilification took place with their Religion for the acts of Ku Klux Klan in the US, the troubles between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland, the Army of God and their anthrax letters, the Christian group (Tsar Lazaar?) that killed thousands in Serbia and now wants to nuke Kosovo, and who knows how many more groups. What about the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Christianization of the Americas during the XVI-XVIII centuries. What about the Bible? Everyone's talking about the hatred prevalent in the Qu'ran, but what happens with the Old Testament, holy book for both Judaism and Christianity. It contains a lot of violence and hatred as well.
VIOLENT CHRISTIANITY - CHECKED
Let's check Judaism. What about Irgun and Lehi and their peaceful contribution to the creation of Israel? Kahanists? And Israel and its state terrorism? You think that's not terrorism, well you are wrong, it is terrorism at its best. Israel is no better no worse than those extremists they fight everyday. Some facts: the Qibya Massacre (1953), the Lavon Affair (1954), the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre (1994), the Lebanon War (2006), the everyday actions of the IDF in the OT's and a lot more I don't remember.
VIOLENT JUDAISM - CHECKED
There are other Religion promoting terrorism, violence, hatred, but these three are IMO the most important Religions in the World. And as we can see in everyone of them there're extremists and radicals who use the Religion as the excuse to commit acts of violence, hiding political agendas and economic interests, not very Religious motivations. So, it's clear that any Religion can be violent when the extremists use them to justify their acts. But the generalization and persecution of a whole group for the actions of those extremists is also a sad crime.
Last edited by aj0404 (2008-01-31 16:18:25)
Was it done in the name of religion? I do not think so. I doubt they said "all praise jesus" before they blew something up.JahManRed wrote:
Everything you listed has taken place here in Ireland. Done by supposed Christians.usmarine wrote:
Serge...last time I checked, no other religion in modern times has been responsible for suicide bombing coffee shops, cutting off people's heads, hanging burned bodies off of bridges, killing young women on their way home from school, and killing people for watching a soccer match, etc etc etc.
When you try and compare that to any other religion, it makes you look like a dope.
suicide bombing coffee shops.............CHECK
cutting off people's heads ............................CHECK
hanging burned bodies off of bridges ........................CHECK
killing young women on their way home from school........................CHECK
killing people for watching a soccer match...............................CHECK
I scored out Suicide, but allot of bombers blew themselves up constructing and planting bombs here. Same for the Baltic states.
So the only difference I can see is that Christian terrorists haven't the balls, commitment or faith in their chosen religion to take themselves out when they do a mass murder.
Israel
lulzGunSlinger OIF II wrote:
Israel
I believe that it is absolutely accurate to use the semantics of religion as a tool of violence. The results of the religion's teachings by means of human activity is a marker of religious activity.aj0404 wrote:
just because a group of people belonging to a religion are violent does not mean the religion itself promotes violence.even if it may be a technical thing i don't think it's fair to call it "Violent Islam/Christianity/Judaism," but rather Violent Muslims/Christians/Jews.sergeriver wrote:
Let me say that I don't understand Organized Religion and the way people worship something they can't see. But I respect their beliefs. I find the vilification of Islam some people make amazing and ignorant. Do you think Islam is the only Religion that promotes violence? Well, it's not. Islam promotes violence of course, but so does Christianity and so does Judaism, the three Abrahamic Religions. All we must remember is it doesn't matter what Religion is promoting the violence, most "believers" within the said Religion are innocent people, and they are victims of the generalization and prejudice for the actions of a few extremists. We all know the violence related to Islam. It's in everyday's media, it's in every Lowing's post. It's real and undeniable. But it's unfair to Muslims (there's a member here who is constantly bashed for being Muslim) to say that Islam is a disease or BS like that courtesy of usmarine. I won't make a list of episodes of violence related to Islam, we know what's going on in the Middle East and North Africa as well. There're 1.5 billion Muslims that don't commit acts of violence, and maybe a few thousands that do. I won't write a list of Islamic terrorist organizations, it would be quite long, and, like I said, we all know what these assholes do everyday. These extremists must be fought and killed if possible. The worst crime we can commit is to generalize about the 1.5 billion mentioned above.
VIOLENT ISLAM - CHECKED
Let's check Christianity. What should be said about Christians if the same vilification took place with their Religion for the acts of Ku Klux Klan in the US, the troubles between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland, the Army of God and their anthrax letters, the Christian group (Tsar Lazaar?) that killed thousands in Serbia and now wants to nuke Kosovo, and who knows how many more groups. What about the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Christianization of the Americas during the XVI-XVIII centuries. What about the Bible? Everyone's talking about the hatred prevalent in the Qu'ran, but what happens with the Old Testament, holy book for both Judaism and Christianity. It contains a lot of violence and hatred as well.
VIOLENT CHRISTIANITY - CHECKED
Let's check Judaism. What about Irgun and Lehi and their peaceful contribution to the creation of Israel? Kahanists? And Israel and its state terrorism? You think that's not terrorism, well you are wrong, it is terrorism at its best. Israel is no better no worse than those extremists they fight everyday. Some facts: the Qibya Massacre (1953), the Lavon Affair (1954), the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre (1994), the Lebanon War (2006), the everyday actions of the IDF in the OT's and a lot more I don't remember.
VIOLENT JUDAISM - CHECKED
There are other Religion promoting terrorism, violence, hatred, but these three are IMO the most important Religions in the World. And as we can see in everyone of them there're extremists and radicals who use the Religion as the excuse to commit acts of violence, hiding political agendas and economic interests, not very Religious motivations. So, it's clear that any Religion can be violent when the extremists use them to justify their acts. But the generalization and persecution of a whole group for the actions of those extremists is also a sad crime.
While I may be one of the most fervent atheists here (and some others would like to think that all religions are the worst evil), I do recognize that despite past transgressions of the other two Abrahamic religions, Islam remains the most violent religion of the three today. While there are organizations such as the Christian Lord's Army, or that there are certain elements of Christianity or Judaism that perform acts of violence without the same use of obvious religious declarations, but Islam is currently more violent.