Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6531
So, after seeing this I did some looking into the use of RFIDs in credit cards and found a couple of interesting articles:

Firstly this which is perhaps worrying in terms of the cavalier attitude of the companies.

Secondly this, which discusses using credit cards for small transactions (less that $35AUS, which is somewhere between $20US and $30US, I think) without signature.  At first it seemed odd, but the more I though about it the less odd it seems.  Speaking at someone who works in retail (in two completely different environments) I can tell you that you signature means absolutely nothing.  Nobody bothers to look at it.  Most people don't because they're lazy.  I don't because I known the science behind fraud detection: when they look for a fake signature they look for something that's to straight and precise: that is, something that's too perfect.  So there's no way I'm gonna be able to spot a fraud.  I suspect that the use of a signature is more to make them look secure that anything else.

Basically, my question is:

a)  Does the use of RFID (specifically in credit cards, but also in other applications) concern you?

b)  Do you think that use of RFID will increase regardless of consumer safety concerns?
Hurricane
Banned
+1,153|6600|Washington, DC

If it makes paying for shit faster then go for it. As long as the government isn't tracking all of us secretly.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6531

Hurricane wrote:

As long as the government isn't tracking all of us secretly.
Which is kind of one of the points of the article...................
Hurricane
Banned
+1,153|6600|Washington, DC

Bubbalo wrote:

Hurricane wrote:

As long as the government isn't tracking all of us secretly.
Which is kind of one of the points of the article...................
I didn't RTFA yeah RFID makes me somewhat nervous. If I had total trust in the gov. to not be like Big Brother I'd love it. The faster things like checkout at a store, or immigration into the US at the airport the better. Just don't let the NSA see that I bought "Big Breasted Bitchez 3".
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6375|North Carolina
a) I think it should be allowed, but it should be REQUIRED that the company tells you an RFID is in the card.  The same should go for the government and its use of them in ID cards.

Personally, I'd NEVER willingly use a card with an RFID, because of the security concerns.

b) You make a good point with this one.  I'm still a big fan of having to put in a PIN code for transactions -- like when you use a debit card.
Sgt.Scream.MDK
Member
+19|6733|Florida - America's Wang!
When I had to get my passport for the first time I was nervous because they would have RFID tags in them. This video is old (its from about the time they proposed RFID tags in passports), but it presents a real problem. Could terrorists tell the nationality of someone and set a passive explosive to detonate when only certain nationalities go by?

The video is of poor production value, but about 2:34 it shows proof of concept of these attacks happening.

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6531

Turquoise wrote:

a) I think it should be allowed, but it should be REQUIRED that the company tells you an RFID is in the card.  The same should go for the government and its use of them in ID cards.

Personally, I'd NEVER willingly use a card with an RFID, because of the security concerns.
So, the US government starts putting them in drivers licenses (and tells you).  Do you not drive?

Turquoise wrote:

b) You make a good point with this one.  I'm still a big fan of having to put in a PIN code for transactions -- like when you use a debit card.
Pin codes can also be stolen, plus it can sort of defeat the purpose of using a credit card.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6686

Hurricane wrote:

If it makes paying for shit faster then go for it. As long as the government isn't tracking all of us secretly.
Every time you use your credit card, people can find you.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6499|Global Command
Bubs made a thread.
Hmm.
How about that.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6531

Sgt.Scream.MDK wrote:

The video is of poor production value, but about 2:34 it shows proof of concept of these attacks happening.
Proof of a concept is nothing.

TBH I read about the theory of waiting for certain nationalities, and skipped it.  I honestly think it would be too much effort for it to be worth their while.

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

Every time you use your credit card, people can find you.
But only when you use it.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6531

ATG wrote:

Bubs made a thread.
Hmm.
How about that.
What can I say, I'm just a whore for the HoF.

Most of the time, I don't find anything worth making a thread about where a thread doesn't already exist.  That, and I'm bored.  It's 4am, I should really be in bed.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6375|North Carolina

Bubbalo wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

a) I think it should be allowed, but it should be REQUIRED that the company tells you an RFID is in the card.  The same should go for the government and its use of them in ID cards.

Personally, I'd NEVER willingly use a card with an RFID, because of the security concerns.
So, the US government starts putting them in drivers licenses (and tells you).  Do you not drive?
Good point...  Maybe we should just have a referendum to decide whether or not RFID's are used in government cards.  I'd be willing to bet that most people would be against it, after they are made aware of the risks.

Bubbalo wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

b) You make a good point with this one.  I'm still a big fan of having to put in a PIN code for transactions -- like when you use a debit card.
Pin codes can also be stolen, plus it can sort of defeat the purpose of using a credit card.
No system is full-proof.  I'd trust my own ability to keep the PIN secret over the possibility of having someone capture my information through the air.  The use of PINs puts the responsibility of security in your own hands....
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6531

Turquoise wrote:

Good point...  Maybe we should just have a referendum to decide whether or not RFID's are used in government cards.  I'd be willing to bet that most people would be against it, after they are made aware of the risks.
You Americans and your paranoia

Turqouise wrote:

No system is full-proof.  I'd trust my own ability to keep the PIN secret over the possibility of having someone capture my information through the air.  The use of PINs puts the responsibility of security in your own hands....
And what about the fact that not needing a machine hooked up is one of the big advantages of credit cards?

Last edited by Bubbalo (2007-08-04 10:56:49)

Zimmer
Un Moderador
+1,688|6726|Scotland

Hurricane wrote:

If it makes paying for shit faster then go for it. As long as the government isn't tracking all of us secretly.
That is why 500 euro notes are hated so much in Europe.
Because the government cannot track the money anywhere if they pay in cash.
People actually try to pay for houses with notes, seeing as they are pretty big ones. Which makes it hard to track down someone.
It's more common in Europe to see "Car for sale" on a car than in Great Britain because people want cash and don't want to deal through banks.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6375|North Carolina

Bubbalo wrote:

Turqouise wrote:

No system is full-proof.  I'd trust my own ability to keep the PIN secret over the possibility of having someone capture my information through the air.  The use of PINs puts the responsibility of security in your own hands....
And what about the fact that not needing a machine hooked up is one of the big advantages of credit cards?
Well, I think maybe they should rethink that idea.  Maybe having people required to put in PINs would slow down transactions but make them more secure, which collectively, would save society money.

If less fraud is going on as a result of more secure methods, then don't you think that it's worth the time and cost?
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6531
I'm talking about the fact that when a machine dies, you can do credit cards old school with the slidy machine.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6375|North Carolina

Bubbalo wrote:

I'm talking about the fact that when a machine dies, you can do credit cards old school with the slidy machine.
True...  well, let's say we set it up this way...  if the transaction is less than $50, then you wouldn't have to put in the PIN.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6531
If it's less than $50 you can probably do cash.  I'm talking about people doing $100+ transactions.

Of course, this is starting to go a bit OT.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6499|Global Command
My business accepts credit cards.
A bad employee could have a heyday.

I make a fire every other year, burn all the numbers.
Hehe.
l41e
Member
+677|6618

Bubbalo wrote:

Speaking at someone who works in retail (in two completely different environments) I can tell you that you signature means absolutely nothing.  Nobody bothers to look at it.  Most people don't because they're lazy.
http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit/
mikkel
Member
+383|6571
RFID is great for trivial things. We had our keyed locks replaced with RFID locks with keyring tabs at work.

RFID, however, is a bad thing for financial transactions for the same reason as WiFi is bad for doing your online banking. Transmitting your financial and personal details out to anyone who happens to be in the vicinity, regardless of cryptography, is a pretty bad idea. It's tremendously practical, yeah, but I'd rather take five seconds to put the card in the terminal and punch my pin than risk the potential financial and identity theft that it brings with it.

Last edited by mikkel (2007-08-04 11:51:05)

XISIX
Member
+116|6585
Kind of off subject but I work at a library that has our material tagged with RFID tags.

Patrons use self check out antennas to take out material + a large automated material handling system to check items back in.
Certain ink on covers + metallic covers interfere with technology so its not fool proof to say least.

p.s. - Does not stop patrons from stealing dvds + cds + videocassettes since RFID tags are located on cases.

I'm not that paranoid about bombs + what have you but would be concerned about government desires such as the Patriot Act.

Ciao.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6100|North Tonawanda, NY

Bubbalo wrote:

I'm talking about the fact that when a machine dies, you can do credit cards old school with the slidy machine.
That's not a safe/secure way of operating.  The customer leaves the store, and a copy of the card with all your info is right there.  Anyone who can access it can make a copy.

RFID's in credit cards made me think when it first came out, but I am not terribly concerned.  I watch my finances very carefully, and I have managed to have one of my credit card's used fraudulently twice.  All you have to do is call the company and tell them.  You get your money back and all is well in the world.
chittydog
less busy
+586|6805|Kubra, Damn it!

Bubbalo wrote:

Basically, my question is:

a)  Does the use of RFID (specifically in credit cards, but also in other applications) concern you?

b)  Do you think that use of RFID will increase regardless of consumer safety concerns?
a) Not really.

b) Absolutely.

I've had this little paypass thing from Exxon/Mobil for about 10 years now. You just wave it over the sensor at the pump and you're good to go. You can also use it inside if you need a drink so badly you're willing to pay $3 for a 20oz bottle of soda. It's fast and convenient and pretty much kicks ass. I'd love having one in my card as long as it had a transaction limit like you mentioned.

People probably had similar fears of misuse when credit cards first came out. Someone will always find a way to abuse the system or commit some kind of crime, regardless of the technology. Eventually we all get used to it and move on to be worried about the next thing.

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