They are free to go back home.mikeshw wrote:
B.,B.Schuss wrote:
Seriously, as insensitive as those cartoons may have been, burning flags and attacking EU offices won't help their cause much. If they live in western democracies, they'd better respect the right of free speech because that right ( together with the right to have any religion they want ) also guarantees their right to speak out...
those cartoons were perfectly legal under danish law, and if they can't live with that, they should leave and go back to a country which has the scharia adopted. See if you like it better there...
My 2 cents worth here..
Religion deals with the sacred. The equivalent of what was done in the Danish cartoons would be like pissing on the statue of the Virgin Mary (I am going to burn in hell for saying this since I am a Catholic), smearing beef on the God Shiva, (no offence to Hindus visiting this forum) etc etc. In other words, what was done was to the minds of the Muslims a sacrilegious act and in some ways blasphemous. It doesnt matter if there is freedom of speech, because things that are sacred needs to remain that way. Right now, I would surmise that most Muslims (especially those who have settled into a country of their choice) feel victimised in the West, and this is, perhaps, a sign of things coming to a boil. Two wrongs don't make one right and so, imho, whoever drew those cartoons ought to have been a little more sensitive to religious practices. Freedom of speech comes with a moral responsibility, and should not in itself be a carte blanche to say as one pleases.
My comment is an opposing one, having been born in a country where Islam is the predominant religion and where church spires are not allowed to be taller than the Mosque minarets or appear grander than the domed wonders. I grew up in an environment where racial tensions are very tenuous (and usually divisive along religious lines) and we learnt to respect the belief systems of other races. Sometimes we don't accept being discriminated against religiously but what is the alternative. The alternative is chaos and civic unrest.
..and yes, the Leopard 2A6 is one of my favorite tanks
As a danish citizen with no religious affiliations, please let me fill in some of the blanks here. In Denmark, this has turned into a media blizzard and there are many things involved apart from angry muslims.
The drawings were brought 3 months ago in a danish newspaper called Jyllands-Posten, roughly translating into "The Jutland Post". The way I've understood it, the drawings were meant to illustrate intolerance between cultures. Not a lot happened at first apart from some muslim groups taking offense and demanding an apology from the newspaper and the danish government taking legal action against Jyllands-Posten. The danish prime minister Anders Fogh said that the government wouldn't and indeed couldn't do this, as freedom of speech is one of the main pillars of our society.
Only just recently has this problem come back to life as the drawings seem to have made their way to the middle east and are being circulated. It has now also taken on the form of propaganda as fake drawings have surfaced as well, being much more crude than the harmless ones first published. Also, the muslims receive these pictures with a poll saying that 80% of danes don't think we have anything to apologize for. This easily translates into "all danes dislike muslims and they can go shove their silly religion for all we care" if that's what you wan't to read into it, and if you don't really get the concept "freedom of speech".
Next stage is a boycott of all danish wares in the middle-east. Middle-eastern diplomats have been called home. Danish citizens have received a notification to get out of Palestine in three days. Threats of terror towards danish targets is abundant, and our embassies in Middle-eastern countries are being occupied.
The UN has been forced to take a stance. This is problematic since the situation is getting really hot. Turning our backs on freedom of speech and making an official apology is difficult as well considering how that would just show that western civilization is based on candy-floss, happy thoughts and no power to stand up for what we believe.
The UN and the danish state have ultimately decided to stand up for the freedom of speech principle, but they state at the same time that they don't necessarily like the drawings in question. That's the thing with freedom of speech. If you like it, you're allowed to. If you don't, ignore what you believe isn't worth paying attention to. This doesn't go over well with muslims though since depicting Mohammad is sacrilege, and infidels are wrong when they say things that go against the holy scriptures.
It is also worth mentioning that Jyllands-posten has decided to apologize because of all the sore spots they have hit with this. Their apology is written in a way that can be read any way you want though. They aren't exactly apologizing for publishing the drawings, they are apologizing because it hurt some peoples feelings. Not good enough muslims say.
That sums it up pretty well, and I'll close with my own views on the matter. As for Jyllands-posten publishing the drawings in the first place, what a friggin moronic thing to do. They should've known that this would be the equivalent of telling every muslim on the planet to go f*** themselves. They're allowed to because of freedom of speech, but it's in very bad style. For a serious newspaper wanting to hold on to their credibility, it's just plain stupid. An apology for being insensitive and making the drawings is in order.
For the danish governement or the UN to apologize is a definate no go. Freedom of speech is paramount. Hurt feelings about religious beliefs isn't supposed to make us sell out and turn our backs on our main pillars of society. When things get as hot as this and cultures clash, you will have to fight fire with fire. If you don't, you will be seen as weak by both the antagonists and your own people will lose it's self respect. The followers of a particular religious belief starting to threaten to kill because of another people exercising their own particular rights is plain unacceptable. Europeans have to make a stand and not be run over.
Hope this clears some stuff up, thanks for reading
Edit: Tensions are also high internally in Denmark as some of the muslim leaders who are citizens of Denmark, have left to travel to the middle-east to spread the propaganda. That just isn't allright when you know what the drawings mean (not being anti-muslim), what freedom of speech is, and you are living in the country in question. This is just fanning the flames and working to spread hatred against the country you are a citizens in, and not working for it in a positive way.
The drawings were brought 3 months ago in a danish newspaper called Jyllands-Posten, roughly translating into "The Jutland Post". The way I've understood it, the drawings were meant to illustrate intolerance between cultures. Not a lot happened at first apart from some muslim groups taking offense and demanding an apology from the newspaper and the danish government taking legal action against Jyllands-Posten. The danish prime minister Anders Fogh said that the government wouldn't and indeed couldn't do this, as freedom of speech is one of the main pillars of our society.
Only just recently has this problem come back to life as the drawings seem to have made their way to the middle east and are being circulated. It has now also taken on the form of propaganda as fake drawings have surfaced as well, being much more crude than the harmless ones first published. Also, the muslims receive these pictures with a poll saying that 80% of danes don't think we have anything to apologize for. This easily translates into "all danes dislike muslims and they can go shove their silly religion for all we care" if that's what you wan't to read into it, and if you don't really get the concept "freedom of speech".
Next stage is a boycott of all danish wares in the middle-east. Middle-eastern diplomats have been called home. Danish citizens have received a notification to get out of Palestine in three days. Threats of terror towards danish targets is abundant, and our embassies in Middle-eastern countries are being occupied.
The UN has been forced to take a stance. This is problematic since the situation is getting really hot. Turning our backs on freedom of speech and making an official apology is difficult as well considering how that would just show that western civilization is based on candy-floss, happy thoughts and no power to stand up for what we believe.
The UN and the danish state have ultimately decided to stand up for the freedom of speech principle, but they state at the same time that they don't necessarily like the drawings in question. That's the thing with freedom of speech. If you like it, you're allowed to. If you don't, ignore what you believe isn't worth paying attention to. This doesn't go over well with muslims though since depicting Mohammad is sacrilege, and infidels are wrong when they say things that go against the holy scriptures.
It is also worth mentioning that Jyllands-posten has decided to apologize because of all the sore spots they have hit with this. Their apology is written in a way that can be read any way you want though. They aren't exactly apologizing for publishing the drawings, they are apologizing because it hurt some peoples feelings. Not good enough muslims say.
That sums it up pretty well, and I'll close with my own views on the matter. As for Jyllands-posten publishing the drawings in the first place, what a friggin moronic thing to do. They should've known that this would be the equivalent of telling every muslim on the planet to go f*** themselves. They're allowed to because of freedom of speech, but it's in very bad style. For a serious newspaper wanting to hold on to their credibility, it's just plain stupid. An apology for being insensitive and making the drawings is in order.
For the danish governement or the UN to apologize is a definate no go. Freedom of speech is paramount. Hurt feelings about religious beliefs isn't supposed to make us sell out and turn our backs on our main pillars of society. When things get as hot as this and cultures clash, you will have to fight fire with fire. If you don't, you will be seen as weak by both the antagonists and your own people will lose it's self respect. The followers of a particular religious belief starting to threaten to kill because of another people exercising their own particular rights is plain unacceptable. Europeans have to make a stand and not be run over.
Hope this clears some stuff up, thanks for reading
Edit: Tensions are also high internally in Denmark as some of the muslim leaders who are citizens of Denmark, have left to travel to the middle-east to spread the propaganda. That just isn't allright when you know what the drawings mean (not being anti-muslim), what freedom of speech is, and you are living in the country in question. This is just fanning the flames and working to spread hatred against the country you are a citizens in, and not working for it in a positive way.
Last edited by Drezn (2006-02-03 06:52:12)
well, I guess us europeans tend not to take religion so seriously, and that includes our own. And to pick up on your example, although I would certainly not support people peeing on the statue of the virgin mary, it would also not be a reason for me to put other people's life at harm or kidnap someone of them or ask that a holy war should be conducted against them, let alone burn their flags.mikeshw wrote:
B.,B.Schuss wrote:
Seriously, as insensitive as those cartoons may have been, burning flags and attacking EU offices won't help their cause much. If they live in western democracies, they'd better respect the right of free speech because that right ( together with the right to have any religion they want ) also guarantees their right to speak out...
those cartoons were perfectly legal under danish law, and if they can't live with that, they should leave and go back to a country which has the scharia adopted. See if you like it better there...
My 2 cents worth here..
Religion deals with the sacred. The equivalent of what was done in the Danish cartoons would be like pissing on the statue of the Virgin Mary (I am going to burn in hell for saying this since I am a Catholic), smearing beef on the God Shiva, (no offence to Hindus visiting this forum) etc etc. In other words, what was done was to the minds of the Muslims a sacrilegious act and in some ways blasphemous. It doesnt matter if there is freedom of speech, because things that are sacred needs to remain that way. Right now, I would surmise that most Muslims (especially those who have settled into a country of their choice) feel victimised in the West, and this is, perhaps, a sign of things coming to a boil. Two wrongs don't make one right and so, imho, whoever drew those cartoons ought to have been a little more sensitive to religious practices. Freedom of speech comes with a moral responsibility, and should not in itself be a carte blanche to say as one pleases.
My comment is an opposing one, having been born in a country where Islam is the predominant religion and where church spires are not allowed to be taller than the Mosque minarets or appear grander than the domed wonders. I grew up in an environment where racial tensions are very tenuous (and usually divisive along religious lines) and we learnt to respect the belief systems of other races. Sometimes we don't accept being discriminated against religiously but what is the alternative. The alternative is chaos and civic unrest.
..and yes, the Leopard 2A6 is one of my favorite tanks
The main difference between the two of us, mike, is that - as you have said - you were born in a country where islam is the predominant religion, while I was born in a country where it simply isn't.
Accordingly, it is only natural that you are much more sensible towards the feelings of the muslim community and it is easier for you to determine wether a certain action will provoke muslim hatred or not.
To be honest, I believe most of the people involved with the danish newspaper simply did not believe that those cartoons would be that much of an issue and cause so much unrest with the muslim community. They treated those cartoons like any other satire.
Christian / religious satire is quite common here in germany, for example, and no one makes a big fuss about it. The church may not like it, but they have accepted that such satire is part of the culture we live in. Same goes for political parties and other organizations of the like, which are all subject to satire from time to time.
separation (sp?) of church and state is the main issue here. To us europeans, those muslims first and foremost are members of the nation they live in, for example denmark, sweden or germany. They are danes, swedes, germans. Accordingly, we expect them to follow the laws we have set up for our society, and that includes freedom of speech ( among others ). But most of the muslims tend to not think of themselves as danes, swedes or germans but rather as muslims who happen to live in that country. For them, muslim laws, habits and customs override the laws of the country they live in.
I am not saying that is always the case, but it has been the source of a lot of problems in Europe lately.
This fundamental difference in the way we look at our respective religion is what sets europeans and muslims apart the most.
I do agree that we should have respect for each others beliefs, but it is not the belief I am worried about, it is the people who act on it.
I have discussed this a lot with xanthpi in some other threads in this subforum, and although I consider myself a liberal, I am slowly coming to the realization that Islam as a religion is stuck in the 7th century and is not really compatible with life in today's western democracies. those who truly live by the teachings of the Qu'ran will never be able to adapt to our culture. And they wouldn't want to do that anyway.
It's just satire, damn it. A freakin' comic strip. If that newspaper had put a cartoon about the catholic church in the same spot, no one would have given a damn about it. What makes muslims think their religion is so special and worth more than human life ? I am a tolerant guy, but if those muslims put the life of innocent people in harms way ( like they did in gaza yesterday ) because of this, even I will reach a point at which my tolerance reaches its limits.
Found this on the Internet:
-Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
-A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
-Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
-Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
-Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.
-Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
-A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
-Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
-Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
-Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
-Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.
That is interesting, considering that the Islamic press in the Middle East regularly feature cartoons that are incredibly insulting to Jews. People in glass houses...mikeshw wrote:
The equivalent of what was done in the Danish cartoons would be like pissing on the statue of the Virgin Mary....
It doesnt matter if there is freedom of speech, because things that are sacred needs to remain that way....
Two wrongs don't make one right and so, imho, whoever drew those cartoons ought to have been a little more sensitive to religious practices....
I will make a point of buying some Danish stuff.Drezn wrote:
Next stage is a boycott of all danish wares in the middle-east.
Good for them.Drezn wrote:
The UN and the danish state have ultimately decided to stand up for the freedom of speech principle...
Very well said. Stay strong brother!Drezn wrote:
For the danish governement or the UN to apologize is a definate no go. Freedom of speech is paramount. Hurt feelings about religious beliefs isn't supposed to make us sell out and turn our backs on our main pillars of society. When things get as hot as this and cultures clash, you will have to fight fire with fire. If you don't, you will be seen as weak by both the antagonists and your own people will lose it's self respect. The followers of a particular religious belief starting to threaten to kill because of another people exercising their own particular rights is plain unacceptable. Europeans have to make a stand and not be run over.
Well, again because racial lines overlap religious ones at where I live, these are considered taboo subjects and inflammatory. It can bring the country and its economy down.B.Schuss wrote:
Christian / religious satire is quite common here in germany, for example, and no one makes a big fuss about it. The church may not like it, but they have accepted that such satire is part of the culture we live in. Same goes for political parties and other organizations of the like, which are all subject to satire from time to time.
In islamic countries, the religion and state are one. Your point about it being stuck in 7th century isnt too far off considering that it is the predominant religion in the Middle East and looking at the cultural development there (with the possible exception of Dubai), one does wonder about archaism being in the way of a lot of things.B.Schuss wrote:
separation (sp?) of church and state is the main issue here. This fundamental difference in the way we look at our respective religion is what sets europeans and muslims apart the most.
I am slowly coming to the realization that Islam as a religion is stuck in the 7th century and is not really compatible with life in today's western democracies. those who truly live by the teachings of the Qu'ran will never be able to adapt to our culture. And they wouldn't want to do that anyway.
But isnt this a perception thing? From their perspective, the world should respect their belief system. Why must the world mock their religion?B.Schuss wrote:
What makes muslims think their religion is so special and worth more than human life ? I am a tolerant guy, but if those muslims put the life of innocent people in harms way ( like they did in gaza yesterday ) because of this, even I will reach a point at which my tolerance reaches its limits.
There is this battle even amongst Muslims between the Fundamentalists and the Moderates. The tendency is to find the Moderates in the more developed Muslim nations, and the Fundamentalists amongst the poorer Muslim states. The Moderates do not preach "jihadism" but tolerance. However, it is very difficult for the Moderates to convince the Fundamentalists that tolerance is the way to move forward when their religious beliefs are being mocked at. If anything, it is fast becoming a siege mentality for the Muslims and before long, Fundamentalism will prevail. Fundamentalist Islamic beliefs is the fuel for terrorism right now.
A persistent shift towards religious polarization is going to make the world a dangerous one to live in. 9/11 proved that even a great nation like the US is not safe. Where I live, it is not safe either.
I cant comment on the situaiton in Denmark now or religion in Europe as I have not been back there since '99. This is a perspective from someone who happen to be in the religious minority and how it is like. We celebrate all the major religious holidays here.
I'm just getting tired of the Muslims all together. Wipe Islam from the face of the planet (people, buildings, writings, artifacts, etc.) and then put every other religion on notice that radical religious groups will not be tolerated.
From everyone elses perspective the question is, "Why should we accord them more respect than we accord ourselves, when they have consistently shown that they do not respect anyone elses religion or opinions at all?"mikeshw wrote:
From their perspective, the world should respect their belief system. Why must the world mock their religion?
Now we're getting somewhere....in a sort of blunt, foolish way. Wipe Islam off the face of the map? Hardly, my friends. The second half of this statement, however, shows some real promise from where I'm sitting. War on Terror? No. War on Drugs? Come the hell on. War on extremism. Line up McVeigh, Bin Laden, Falwell, Roberts, and the members of the following organizations:Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
I'm just getting tired of the Muslims all together. Wipe Islam from the face of the planet (people, buildings, writings, artifacts, etc.) and then put every other religion on notice that radical religious groups will not be tolerated.
Hamas
Hezbollah
Jewish Defence League
Zionist Defence League
Covenant, Shield, and Arm of the Lord
Ku Klux Klan
Animal Liberation Front
Environmental Liberation Front
and so on and so on.
Don't kill them directly. Give them a chance to make a stand for their beliefs. Give each of them an AK-47, 250 rounds of ammunition, and three days worth of food....on an Oil Rig in the middle of the atlantic.
Keep a 20-mile perimeter with ships from various navies.
Go back in, say, five years.
Kill the survivors.
Just a thought.
Edited for Grammar.
Last edited by MephistoJade (2006-02-03 10:24:11)
Now, we can make ourselves beliefe that they are all nuts and blow themselfs up simply because they are crazy. If we beliefe that we did nothing wrong, they are the bad guys we can all sleep well at night.Berserk_Vampire wrote:
They will never be able to do anything all they can do are these pathetic small little attacks wich do nothing they kill a few people but we keep on going and were not afraid.
Just so stupid these people blowing themselves up for nothing did you hear about the married couple on the news? They were gonna blow each other up lmao true love
There pissed about everything and every one.
The crucial question is: WHY are those people really BLOWING THEMSELVES UP? Might it be because the western world treats, insults them (overgeneralization for the arab world) over and over again to a point where they consider BLOWING THEMSELVES up as the BEST MEANS to change their situation to the better?
Of course we all condone such acts but we should all ask ourselves why they do this. In the end they are just people like you and me except that they were not born into such a "rich" and "friendly" environment as most of us were.
That is a load of BS if I've ever heard one. The main reason they continue down this path is because they allow their religion to be the sole basis of their existence and continue to allow their leaders to keep them in the middle ages with what seems like no hope.AD_Kensan wrote:
Now, we can make ourselves beliefe that they are all nuts and blow themselfs up simply because they are crazy. If we beliefe that we did nothing wrong, they are the bad guys we can all sleep well at night.Berserk_Vampire wrote:
They will never be able to do anything all they can do are these pathetic small little attacks wich do nothing they kill a few people but we keep on going and were not afraid.
Just so stupid these people blowing themselves up for nothing did you hear about the married couple on the news? They were gonna blow each other up lmao true love
There pissed about everything and every one.
The crucial question is: WHY are those people really BLOWING THEMSELVES UP? Might it be because the western world treats, insults them (overgeneralization for the arab world) over and over again to a point where they consider BLOWING THEMSELVES up as the BEST MEANS to change their situation to the better?
Of course we all condone such acts but we should all ask ourselves why they do this. In the end they are just people like you and me except that they were not born into such a "rich" and "friendly" environment as most of us were.
If those stupid fucking idiots just want to blow themselves up, and stop trying to take everyone with them, I'd be more than happy to donate to a C4 fund. Then they can go into the middle of nowhere and and do whatever the hell they want. They can take that C4, make it into the shape of a dildo, stuff it up their fucking ass, and go crazy.
Its because of there religion and the people that they do it for brain wash them with hopes of going to a better place do they honestly think blowing yourself up and killing people will lead you to some paradise magical land?AD_Kensan wrote:
Now, we can make ourselves beliefe that they are all nuts and blow themselfs up simply because they are crazy. If we beliefe that we did nothing wrong, they are the bad guys we can all sleep well at night.Berserk_Vampire wrote:
They will never be able to do anything all they can do are these pathetic small little attacks wich do nothing they kill a few people but we keep on going and were not afraid.
Just so stupid these people blowing themselves up for nothing did you hear about the married couple on the news? They were gonna blow each other up lmao true love
There pissed about everything and every one.
The crucial question is: WHY are those people really BLOWING THEMSELVES UP? Might it be because the western world treats, insults them (overgeneralization for the arab world) over and over again to a point where they consider BLOWING THEMSELVES up as the BEST MEANS to change their situation to the better?
Of course we all condone such acts but we should all ask ourselves why they do this. In the end they are just people like you and me except that they were not born into such a "rich" and "friendly" environment as most of us were.
But its the States own fault and they will never change there ways so the Terrorists will continue to attack them and we will sit back and watch the sparks fly.
I think no one should show respect or acknowledge them until they get into the 21st century and respect the rest of the world IMO.
Like I said, where I live, Islam coexists with Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.whittsend wrote:
From everyone elses perspective the question is, "Why should we accord them more respect than we accord ourselves, when they have consistently shown that they do not respect anyone elses religion or opinions at all?"mikeshw wrote:
From their perspective, the world should respect their belief system. Why must the world mock their religion?
Last edited by mikeshw (2006-02-03 11:03:57)
funny things is, we're all missing the bigger picture here, it wasn't the posting of this cartoon that brought out this sudden protests, etc. their feelings regarding another culture aren't going to change for on simple thing like that, their feeling against the westerners have always been there, they've simply been impotent to do more than make a few threats, protests, and lop off a few heads. They've never been able to do more than that. These feelings have always been there, they haven't simply been "converted" to anti westernism. This is a feeling that has been there for ages. it simply flares up when something like this happens.
Oh, and by the way berserk, since you hate america so much, why don't you count all the things that america has done that has had influence in your life, be it good or bad, and get rid of it. Ie: your phone, electricity, computer, internet, freedom of speech, cheap fuel, pro-Israeli stance, etc. then, you can truly say you aren't a waste of space that tries to have his cake and it it too.
much as you refuse to admit it, America has been a great force for good in the world, and many of the modern day things that you obviously use, were made possible by America. So, in order for you to truly be anti american, you need to get stop doing anything that has anything to do with america. I am so sick of your ranting and ravings ruining good posts. You have no clue about reality, nor about world politics. Get your head out of the sand and into the real world.
I am aware that America has caused problems, and i know it isn't perfect. I proudly voted for Bush, but i'm not 100% happy with the job he's doing. mainly, his internal politics, but he is NOT to blame for everything that is going on in the world. Islam extremism has existed for a very long time, and under many other different presidents. It isn't new, nor is it America's fault. Did we train OBL? yes. Were we allied with him against russia? yes. Did we abandon him and his fighters after Russia tuck tailed and ran from Afgahanistan? yes. Was it deliberate? yes. America has a long history of being too cavalier with their allies. However, stop your deluded rants about how evil America is, and start reading some books on what's really going on in the world, and stop cackling about the potential millions of lives lost, muslim, american, british, european, and canadian that arises from narrow minded and foolish attitudes such as yours, and start doing something poitive for the world.
Oh, and by the way berserk, since you hate america so much, why don't you count all the things that america has done that has had influence in your life, be it good or bad, and get rid of it. Ie: your phone, electricity, computer, internet, freedom of speech, cheap fuel, pro-Israeli stance, etc. then, you can truly say you aren't a waste of space that tries to have his cake and it it too.
much as you refuse to admit it, America has been a great force for good in the world, and many of the modern day things that you obviously use, were made possible by America. So, in order for you to truly be anti american, you need to get stop doing anything that has anything to do with america. I am so sick of your ranting and ravings ruining good posts. You have no clue about reality, nor about world politics. Get your head out of the sand and into the real world.
I am aware that America has caused problems, and i know it isn't perfect. I proudly voted for Bush, but i'm not 100% happy with the job he's doing. mainly, his internal politics, but he is NOT to blame for everything that is going on in the world. Islam extremism has existed for a very long time, and under many other different presidents. It isn't new, nor is it America's fault. Did we train OBL? yes. Were we allied with him against russia? yes. Did we abandon him and his fighters after Russia tuck tailed and ran from Afgahanistan? yes. Was it deliberate? yes. America has a long history of being too cavalier with their allies. However, stop your deluded rants about how evil America is, and start reading some books on what's really going on in the world, and stop cackling about the potential millions of lives lost, muslim, american, british, european, and canadian that arises from narrow minded and foolish attitudes such as yours, and start doing something poitive for the world.
Last edited by jarhedch (2006-02-03 11:44:25)
Drezn's post sheds more light on this issue than American media will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-P … d_cartoons
The sanctions and outrage against the cartoons do seem to be getting out of hand, but that stems from the Danish government refusing to apologize for Jyllands Posten. As mikeshw said earlier, the Islamic states are all theocracies and will generally not accept free speech. It's a culture clash...while most of the rest of the world has accepted free speech, they still haven't, so it becomes an issue of diplomacy to at least respect their views, no matter how wrong we think they are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-P … d_cartoons
The sanctions and outrage against the cartoons do seem to be getting out of hand, but that stems from the Danish government refusing to apologize for Jyllands Posten. As mikeshw said earlier, the Islamic states are all theocracies and will generally not accept free speech. It's a culture clash...while most of the rest of the world has accepted free speech, they still haven't, so it becomes an issue of diplomacy to at least respect their views, no matter how wrong we think they are.
First off, the Danish government shouldn't apologize. If an apology of any kind is issued it would need to be from the offending party.Marconius wrote:
Drezn's post sheds more light on this issue than American media will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-P … d_cartoons
The sanctions and outrage against the cartoons do seem to be getting out of hand, but that stems from the Danish government refusing to apologize for Jyllands Posten. As mikeshw said earlier, the Islamic states are all theocracies and will generally not accept free speech. It's a culture clash...while most of the rest of the world has accepted free speech, they still haven't, so it becomes an issue of diplomacy to at least respect their views, no matter how wrong we think they are.
Secondly, I don't give a flying fuck about their views. They can call all of us devils, infidels, and do whatever else they want to us, but some one draws a few cartoons, and all of a sudden we should be respecting their point of view!? I don't fucking think so.
While the bulk of problems are caused by radicals, the failure of the moderate Muslims to speak out against, and take steps to reel in the radicals, makes them just as guilty. If they think killing themselves and taking other people out with them makes them martyrs, I say we give all of them a helping hand. Kill every last fucking one of them, and then let "God" sort them out.
Ok here is something i can understand. They are most upset about Muhammed actually being depicted. But i still think it is messed up that they can have all this offensive propaganda against us but any amount we have on them is pretty much an act of war. Personally i have NO RESPECT for any fundamentalist islamic. This is in large part to having my ass shot at, seeing friends killed, and watching innocent civilians getting their heads cut off with a butter knife. Also seeing some of their propaganda showing American soldiers on chopping blocks is another reason. I'll make sure I am shot and killed before i let them exploit me for their sick agenda. At some point it is inevitable that there will be another "Crusade" like war.
When this happens though...I hate to say it but the Islamic religion is going to be almost annihilated from the face of the earth. There are some good muslims out there but the fundamentalist muslims have given their religion as a whole a serious problem. To teach your superior to everyone else in the world and that its ok to kill anyone who doesn't believe in your religion is a huge problem of some sick sons of bitches. Its almost like the middle east is full of tan Hitlers for their leaders. World War 3 will start in the middle east. And it wont be pretty at all, possibly the end of the world...who knows.
When this happens though...I hate to say it but the Islamic religion is going to be almost annihilated from the face of the earth. There are some good muslims out there but the fundamentalist muslims have given their religion as a whole a serious problem. To teach your superior to everyone else in the world and that its ok to kill anyone who doesn't believe in your religion is a huge problem of some sick sons of bitches. Its almost like the middle east is full of tan Hitlers for their leaders. World War 3 will start in the middle east. And it wont be pretty at all, possibly the end of the world...who knows.
Firstly, I'd like to ask everyone here to keep their racist thoughts to themselves.
Secondly, I think that that Danish newspaper shouldn't have printed that. It would be incredibly insulting to any Muslim. On the other hand, I think that, yes, the Muslim response is way over. Force the UN to apologize? If I were them, I'd response with a nice "Fuck off!"
Finally, I have to share my own thoughts. While the ratio of decent, normal Muslims to terrorists is about 100000:1, it is a well-known fact that Muslims tend to be just that bit ruder and louder than others.
Example: Backlash to the Cronulla riots (you've heard). A storm is kicked up in Australia when its discovered the police hid footage of a gang of at least 15 Middle-Easterners attacking and bashing a guy that was just walking along, as far as we could tell...
Another example: Sydney (again) 2000. A small band of Middle-Easterners push and shove others out of their way to get to the best spots.
Secondly, I think that that Danish newspaper shouldn't have printed that. It would be incredibly insulting to any Muslim. On the other hand, I think that, yes, the Muslim response is way over. Force the UN to apologize? If I were them, I'd response with a nice "Fuck off!"
Finally, I have to share my own thoughts. While the ratio of decent, normal Muslims to terrorists is about 100000:1, it is a well-known fact that Muslims tend to be just that bit ruder and louder than others.
Example: Backlash to the Cronulla riots (you've heard). A storm is kicked up in Australia when its discovered the police hid footage of a gang of at least 15 Middle-Easterners attacking and bashing a guy that was just walking along, as far as we could tell...
Another example: Sydney (again) 2000. A small band of Middle-Easterners push and shove others out of their way to get to the best spots.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
This is / was / and will always be a holy war... not because we chose it to be so,but because our enemy has done so .
The aggressor chooses the rules of the conflict.
the muslim extremeists we fight want to bend the world to their vision of a world callifdom, those that will not bend must be broken. europe will need to wake up to this fact soon or face their own demise.
The aggressor chooses the rules of the conflict.
the muslim extremeists we fight want to bend the world to their vision of a world callifdom, those that will not bend must be broken. europe will need to wake up to this fact soon or face their own demise.
iam just waiting for xpenti*** . then this post will be so much better.
Just try to kill them all.
anyway u lot seen over there, comes on skyone. great show.
Just try to kill them all.
anyway u lot seen over there, comes on skyone. great show.
I've loved every second of this.. these poor little Islamic bitches are so fragile that they're set off by a little cartoon - we're scared now!
Schuss, I couldn't have said it better myself.B.Schuss wrote:
well, I guess us europeans tend not to take religion so seriously, and that includes our own. And to pick up on your example, although I would certainly not support people peeing on the statue of the virgin mary, it would also not be a reason for me to put other people's life at harm or kidnap someone of them or ask that a holy war should be conducted against them, let alone burn their flags.
The main difference between the two of us, mike, is that - as you have said - you were born in a country where islam is the predominant religion, while I was born in a country where it simply isn't.
Accordingly, it is only natural that you are much more sensible towards the feelings of the muslim community and it is easier for you to determine wether a certain action will provoke muslim hatred or not.
To be honest, I believe most of the people involved with the danish newspaper simply did not believe that those cartoons would be that much of an issue and cause so much unrest with the muslim community. They treated those cartoons like any other satire.
Christian / religious satire is quite common here in germany, for example, and no one makes a big fuss about it. The church may not like it, but they have accepted that such satire is part of the culture we live in. Same goes for political parties and other organizations of the like, which are all subject to satire from time to time.
separation (sp?) of church and state is the main issue here. To us europeans, those muslims first and foremost are members of the nation they live in, for example denmark, sweden or germany. They are danes, swedes, germans. Accordingly, we expect them to follow the laws we have set up for our society, and that includes freedom of speech ( among others ). But most of the muslims tend to not think of themselves as danes, swedes or germans but rather as muslims who happen to live in that country. For them, muslim laws, habits and customs override the laws of the country they live in.
I am not saying that is always the case, but it has been the source of a lot of problems in Europe lately.
This fundamental difference in the way we look at our respective religion is what sets europeans and muslims apart the most.
I do agree that we should have respect for each others beliefs, but it is not the belief I am worried about, it is the people who act on it.
I have discussed this a lot with xanthpi in some other threads in this subforum, and although I consider myself a liberal, I am slowly coming to the realization that Islam as a religion is stuck in the 7th century and is not really compatible with life in today's western democracies. those who truly live by the teachings of the Qu'ran will never be able to adapt to our culture. And they wouldn't want to do that anyway.
It's just satire, damn it. A freakin' comic strip. If that newspaper had put a cartoon about the catholic church in the same spot, no one would have given a damn about it. What makes muslims think their religion is so special and worth more than human life ? I am a tolerant guy, but if those muslims put the life of innocent people in harms way ( like they did in gaza yesterday ) because of this, even I will reach a point at which my tolerance reaches its limits.
IMO, no muslim can claim that they are a religion of peace until they start decrying what the extremists do. Until then, why should we respect their beliefs when they obviously don't respect ours.
So the question becomes, is where you live relevant to what is happening? Probably not.mikeshw wrote:
Like I said, where I live, Islam coexists with Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.whittsend wrote:
From everyone elses perspective the question is, "Why should we accord them more respect than we accord ourselves, when they have consistently shown that they do not respect anyone elses religion or opinions at all?"mikeshw wrote:
From their perspective, the world should respect their belief system. Why must the world mock their religion?
Most of the criticisms people have here are still applicable to the places where Muslims are causing problems on this issue. Furthermore, your peaceful co-existence with Muslims doesn't remove the stain of hypocrisy from those places where many complain about this slight, yet continue to treat Christians, Jews, Buddhists etc. far worse than what Muslims are getting in western states.
Hmm, then they still have at least 1500 years to go. Now, I consider myself a patient man, but I can't possibly wait THAT long.MrPlatinum wrote:
I think no one should show respect or acknowledge them until they get into the 21st century and respect the rest of the world IMO.
Last edited by Rosse_modest (2006-02-06 11:59:23)