Website design.

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2007-07-16 20:44:45

Scorpion0x17: can detect anyone's visible post count...; +691|6981|Cambridge (UK)

Vilham wrote:
jsnipy wrote:
Vilham wrote:
Also is there a XHTML api like the java api?

eg http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/
There is a spec ... http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/
http://www.w3schools.com/tags/default.asp

was actually what i was looking for. Thanks anyway.

I have one big question for you guys about framesets:

1. Should i use them? eg for a table of contents down the left side or along the top, so that it stays the same throughout the website.
2. If i should how do i make it work like a table of contents. So far i can only make it change what is in its own frame and not what is in the other frame.

If you cant answer no.2 thats fine, its just that i looked around all last night for the answer, i even took my lecturers example with such a working case and opened it in note pad but couldnt find the section that showed it as it was using javascript.

1. Whether you should use them is up to you. In general, avoid like the plague.

2. You need to specify a target, eg, say you have the frameset:

index.html:

Code:

<frameset cols="10%,*">
 <frame src="contents.html" name="contents">
 <frame src="page1.html" name="mainbody">
</frameset>

then, in your contents.html, you can specify a target for your page links, thus:

contents.html:

Code:

...
   ...
   <a href="page1.html" target="mainbody">Page 1</a>
   <a href="page2.html" target="mainbody">Page 2</a>
   ...and so on...
...

But, having said that - avoid frames like the plague.

The way I handle 'common page content' like 'contents bars' and so on is to generate them with javascript - this could be a simple as a single function call that looks something like:

contents.js:

Code:

...
   document.write("...
                      <a href="page1.html" target="mainbody">Page 1</a>
                      <a href="page2.html" target="mainbody">Page 2</a>
                      ...and so on...
                   ...");
...

then, in every page file, you insert a <script>...</script> block that inserts the javascript generated contents list into the page:

page1.html:

Code:

...
   <script src="contents.js"></script>
...

etc...

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2007-07-16 20:46:20)

2007-07-16 20:45:06

golgoj4: Member; +51|6989|North Hollywood

I have nothing to contribute, except to comment that this seems like the comments thread on /.I was wondering, how many people here do the coding and layout? most people I come across do 1 or the other.

Last edited by golgoj4 (2007-07-16 20:45:19)

2007-07-16 20:49:19

Scorpion0x17: can detect anyone's visible post count...; +691|6981|Cambridge (UK)

golgoj4 wrote:
I have nothing to contribute, except to comment that this seems like the comments thread on /.I was wondering, how many people here do the coding and layout? most people I come across do 1 or the other.

I'm doing everything on my site - layout, presentation, and both client-side and server-side coding - not to mention writing all the actual content... 100% hand-rolled. 100% mine.

2007-07-16 20:49:23

chittydog: less busy; +586|7050|Kubra, Damn it!

Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Don't think about PHP or other server-side scripting for the moment - you don't need it immediately - build the basic framework and start putting in the main content of the site first - this can all be done client-side (with (x)html, css and javascript).

A secondary benefit to doing it all client-side, is that you could, for example, take all your (x)html, css and javascript files, drop them on to a CD/DVD and you have a presentation disc you can take to give to prospective employers at interview - fancy it up a little with a nice label and a quality case, and you've got the job. (if only were really that simple - but you get the picture, I hope)

Great comments. I'd like to stress the importance of client-side code. We could say it's the future of web development, if we were still in 2005. AJAX is a client-side development methodology that can make your stuff look very slick. Java has their own version, but I don't recall the name. Look at Gmail, almost no page refreshes. Everything is smooth and acts like a desktop application, not a web page. Server-side scripting language (sorry, but had to get that jab in) won't allow you to do that. Everything you do with a language like PHP or classic ASP will give you a page refresh. That means you have to reload the whole page and reprocess all that logic again. I know Fancy keeps raving about it, and it is very popular amongst amateurs, but professionals know the difference (ie, the people who may be hiring you).

Keep this one thing in mind: no real video game is made with a scripting language.

2007-07-16 20:52:00

Cerpin_Taxt: Member; +155|6418

Scorpion0x17 wrote:
The way I handle 'common page content' like 'contents bars' and so on is to generate them with javascript - this could be a simple as a single function call that looks something like:

contents.js:
Code:
...
   document.write("...
                      <a href="page1.html" target="mainbody">Page 1</a>
                      <a href="page2.html" target="mainbody">Page 2</a>
                      ...and so on...
                   ...");
...
then, in every page file, you insert a <script>...</script> block that inserts the javascript generated contents list into the page:

page1.html:
Code:
...
   <script src="contents.js"></script>
...
etc...

This is one of those horrible examples of Javascript I was referring to. Static information, especially information as important as your navigation, should not be generated by Javascript unless you also have that same information in plain html elsewhere on the site. Search engines do not read content generated by Javascript and anyone who has Javascript disabled in their browser will not be able to use your site.

2007-07-16 20:52:25

Scorpion0x17: can detect anyone's visible post count...; +691|6981|Cambridge (UK)

Vilham wrote:
can you guys not argue about scripting languages and programming languages. No matter what either of you say my lecturer in java made it perfectly clear javaScript is NOT the same as java.

Your lecturer was absolutely correct.

They are related in name alone.

2007-07-16 20:54:06

d4rkst4r: biggie smalls; +72|6668|Ontario, Canada

go with php

"you know life is what we make it, and a chance is like a picture, it'd be nice if you just take it"

2007-07-16 20:55:59

d4rkst4r: biggie smalls; +72|6668|Ontario, Canada

btw..

www.phpfreaks.com/

"you know life is what we make it, and a chance is like a picture, it'd be nice if you just take it"

2007-07-16 20:56:13

Cerpin_Taxt: Member; +155|6418

chittydog wrote:
Great comments. I'd like to stress the importance of client-side code. We could say it's the future of web development, if we were still in 2005. AJAX is a client-side development methodology that can make your stuff look very slick. Java has their own version, but I don't recall the name. Look at Gmail, almost no page refreshes. Everything is smooth and acts like a desktop application, not a web page. Server-side scripting language (sorry, but had to get that jab in) won't allow you to do that. Everything you do with a language like PHP or classic ASP will give you a page refresh. That means you have to reload the whole page and reprocess all that logic again. I know Fancy keeps raving about it, and it is very popular amongst amateurs, but professionals know the difference (ie, the people who may be hiring you).

Keep this one thing in mind: no real video game is made with a scripting language.

chittydog, I am convinced that you have no idea what you are talking about. AJAX is most powerful when used in combination with a server-side language. This allows you to retrieve data from and input data into a database without refreshing the page. Check out Digg's comment system to see it in action.

Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt (2007-07-16 20:58:49)

2007-07-16 20:58:30

Scorpion0x17: can detect anyone's visible post count...; +691|6981|Cambridge (UK)

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
This is one of those horrible examples of Javascript I was referring to. Static information, especially information as important as your navigation, should not be generated by Javascript unless you also have that same information in plain html elsewhere on the site. Search engines do not read content generated by Javascript and anyone who has Javascript disabled in their browser will not be able to use your site.

1. how many people use, or even know of, any browsers that don't support JavaScript?
2. there is absolutely no reason to ever disable JavaScript, unless you're a paranoid loon. JavaScript is not a major security risk. It's barely a security risk at all.

But, yes, you should also include in-html navigation links for at least the main section of your site, for example, something like this at the top of every page:

Code:

...
   [<a src="/index.html">Home</a>][<a src="/section1/index.html">Section 1</a>][<a src="/section2/index.html">Section 2</a>][...and so on...]
...

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2007-07-16 20:59:00)

2007-07-16 21:00:25

Cerpin_Taxt: Member; +155|6418

Why would you chose having a static navigation menu generated by Javascript over, let's say, a php include?

Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt (2007-07-16 21:00:34)

2007-07-16 21:02:24

Scorpion0x17: can detect anyone's visible post count...; +691|6981|Cambridge (UK)

d4rkst4r wrote:
go with php

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Why would you chose having a static navigation menu generated by Javascript over, let's say, a php include?

If you ever want to present it, for example on a CD, for browsing offline, which given Vilhams stated requirements - i.e. a 'web-resume' to show off his 1337 skillz to prospective employers - he might want to consider doing at some point.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2007-07-16 21:03:15)

2007-07-16 21:06:47

Scorpion0x17: can detect anyone's visible post count...; +691|6981|Cambridge (UK)

chittydog wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Don't think about PHP or other server-side scripting for the moment - you don't need it immediately - build the basic framework and start putting in the main content of the site first - this can all be done client-side (with (x)html, css and javascript).

A secondary benefit to doing it all client-side, is that you could, for example, take all your (x)html, css and javascript files, drop them on to a CD/DVD and you have a presentation disc you can take to give to prospective employers at interview - fancy it up a little with a nice label and a quality case, and you've got the job. (if only were really that simple - but you get the picture, I hope)
Great comments. I'd like to stress the importance of client-side code. We could say it's the future of web development, if we were still in 2005. AJAX is a client-side development methodology that can make your stuff look very slick. Java has their own version, but I don't recall the name. Look at Gmail, almost no page refreshes. Everything is smooth and acts like a desktop application, not a web page. Server-side scripting language (sorry, but had to get that jab in) won't allow you to do that. Everything you do with a language like PHP or classic ASP will give you a page refresh. That means you have to reload the whole page and reprocess all that logic again. I know Fancy keeps raving about it, and it is very popular amongst amateurs, but professionals know the difference (ie, the people who may be hiring you).

Correct-a-mundo. Plus server-side scripting requires a server - client-side scripting requires nothing more than a browser.

chittydog wrote:
Keep this one thing in mind: no real video game is made with a scripting language.

Waits for posts of "BF2 was"...

^{(It wasn't already!)}

2007-07-16 21:08:25

Mr.Dooomed: Find your center.; +752|6543

Man I need to study into all this some more. I got a website for our family business where I can be selling our $55 and up designs to our many clientel who ask us all the time if they can buy on our website

Nature is a powerful force. Those who seek to subdue nature, never do so permanently.

2007-07-16 21:08:58

Scorpion0x17: can detect anyone's visible post count...; +691|6981|Cambridge (UK)

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
don't use Javascript where CSS could be used instead (i.e. image rollovers).

This is the only good thing I've read in any of your posts so far.

CSS is much better for a lot of things that JavaScript was necessary for before CSS came along.

2007-07-16 21:10:34

Cerpin_Taxt: Member; +155|6418

Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Correct-a-mundo. Plus server-side scripting requires a server - client-side scripting requires nothing more than a browser.

Well, if you want your website to be on the web, a server is kind of required.

Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt (2007-07-16 21:12:01)

2007-07-16 21:12:47

Scorpion0x17: can detect anyone's visible post count...; +691|6981|Cambridge (UK)

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
A scripting language is a programming language.

No it is not.

Scripting languages and programming languages are fundamentally different. That's why they are called different things.

2007-07-16 21:14:22

Scorpion0x17: can detect anyone's visible post count...; +691|6981|Cambridge (UK)

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Correct-a-mundo. Plus server-side scripting requires a server - client-side scripting requires nothing more than a browser.
Well, if you want your website to be on the web, a server is kind of required.

Yes, but if you also want your resume to be readable offline and you write it all in PHP, you're fucked.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2007-07-16 21:15:01)

2007-07-16 21:14:53

chittydog: less busy; +586|7050|Kubra, Damn it!

Im_Dooomed wrote:
Man I need to study into all this some more. I got a website for our family business where I can be selling our $55 and up designs to our many clientel who ask us all the time if they can buy on our website

What kind of designs are you doing? Web designs? If so, then I highly recommend you get into this stuff. My company paid several hundred thousand dollars last year for a design on just one of our sites. For all that, the design company came back with about four sample screens (just tifs) and one page of HTML.

2007-07-16 21:16:24

Scorpion0x17: can detect anyone's visible post count...; +691|6981|Cambridge (UK)

Im_Dooomed wrote:
Man I need to study into all this some more. I got a website for our family business where I can be selling our $55 and up designs to our many clientel who ask us all the time if they can buy on our website

You'd probably be better off paying someone to do it for you.

2007-07-16 21:17:05

Cerpin_Taxt: Member; +155|6418

A scripting language is an interpreted programming language. You are essentially programming within in a program.

2007-07-16 21:18:39

chittydog: less busy; +586|7050|Kubra, Damn it!

Scorpion, don't bother with Fancy. He's obviously a PHP zealot and has made up his mind to stick with older technology. I've gone through the process of showing junior developers how little they know often enough to realize it'll take too much effort to open his eyes in this thread. That's why I stopped listening to him after the first page of responses.

2007-07-16 21:20:05

Cerpin_Taxt: Member; +155|6418

Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Correct-a-mundo. Plus server-side scripting requires a server - client-side scripting requires nothing more than a browser.
Well, if you want your website to be on the web, a server is kind of required.
Yes, but if you also want your resume to be readable offline and you write it all in PHP, you're fucked.

There isn't much point in developing a website for an offline resume/portfolio. There are much better alternatives out there. If this is for a web development position, then you better have that site live on the web.

2007-07-16 21:23:52

Vilham: Say wat!?; +580|6981|UK

lol k guys stop arguing.

I have a new question i cant find on these basic tutorials im reading. Ive got an image, its broken down into different parts. Its like a background which flows across all the parts with text for different sections. However when i put it together using XHTML, with no borders it leaves a gap between all the parts. The code i have is.

Code:

<?xml version = "1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//w3c//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">

<html xmlns = "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
    <head>
        <title> Vilham's webpage</title>
    </head>
    <body>
        <img style="border: none;" src = "webpage_logo_top.gif" alt = "Vilhams Home" /><br />
        <img style="border: none;" src = "webpage_logo_left.gif" alt = "" />
        <img style="border: none;" src = "home.gif" alt = "Home" />
        <img style="border: none;" src = "gallery.gif" alt = "Gallery" />
        <img style="border: none;" src = "qualifications.gif" alt = "Gallery" />
        <img style="border: none;" src = "projects.gif" alt = "Gallery" />

        <p> Hello, welcome to my webpage, I have literally just started to learn xhtml.<br />
         Hopefully within a few days I can make my own webpage, this should help<br /> me out in looking
         for a career in programming.</p><br />
        
    </body>
</html>

Last edited by Vilham (2007-07-16 21:26:57)

2007-07-16 21:26:01

Cerpin_Taxt: Member; +155|6418

chittydog wrote:
Scorpion, don't bother with Fancy. He's obviously a PHP zealot and has made up his mind to stick with older technology. I've gone through the process of showing junior developers how little they know often enough to realize it'll take too much effort to open his eyes in this thread. That's why I stopped listening to him after the first page of responses.

Chitty, earlier in the thread you said XHTML is a combination of HTML, CSS, and Javascript. Then you went on to say that PHP is dying, when in fact is the fastest growing server-side language in popularity aside from Ruby. You even claimed flash was more important to learn than a server-side language for web development. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

I must be on crazy pills.

Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt (2007-07-16 21:29:35)

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Vilham wrote:

jsnipy wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Code:

Code:

Code:

Code:

golgoj4 wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Code:

Code:

Vilham wrote:

chittydog wrote:

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:

Code:

d4rkst4r wrote:

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:

chittydog wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

chittydog wrote:

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Im_Dooomed wrote:

Im_Dooomed wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Code:

chittydog wrote:

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