BF2S Forums Turkey Massing 140,000 Troops on Iraq border

Braddock wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Quote from Second in Command of Al Qaida from his most recent tape.

In a new audiotape Tuesday, al-Qaida second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahri threatened Britain with more attacks, accusing London of defying the Islamic world by honoring novelist Salman Rushdie.

Hmmmm...sorry but I don't see anything about attacking Britain because it is in Iraq.

Basically, and excuse to attack another country..it doesn't matter at this point what is going on in Iraq. Read my post a few posts above. Its much bigger and it will not stop anytime soon.

The Iraq invasion has however provided AQ with a new base of operations to plan and direct attacks... on this level alone the Iraq invasion has been detrimental to the battle against terrorism. AQ did not have a foothold in Iraq during Saddam's reign. It has also added fuel to the 'us against them' fire and provided easily-led young Muslims with yet another validation (in their perception, not mine) for their extremism.

I notice that since Spain withdrew troops there has been no more attacks, also why have they not attacked us infidels here in Ireland? We're right beside Britain, have a growing Muslim population and would be a soft target.

Explain Dar-fur, Indonesia or Chechnya.....the attacks there have nothing to do with America being in Iraq. Its about a war of Ideology and if you think just because this or that country is not in Iraq, then they will be safe....well, then that is very naive thinking. All you have to do is look at the world and see that it is much bigger than that....MUCH BIGGER.

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Braddock wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Quote from Second in Command of Al Qaida from his most recent tape.

In a new audiotape Tuesday, al-Qaida second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahri threatened Britain with more attacks, accusing London of defying the Islamic world by honoring novelist Salman Rushdie.

Hmmmm...sorry but I don't see anything about attacking Britain because it is in Iraq.

Basically, and excuse to attack another country..it doesn't matter at this point what is going on in Iraq. Read my post a few posts above. Its much bigger and it will not stop anytime soon.

The Iraq invasion has however provided AQ with a new base of operations to plan and direct attacks... on this level alone the Iraq invasion has been detrimental to the battle against terrorism. AQ did not have a foothold in Iraq during Saddam's reign. It has also added fuel to the 'us against them' fire and provided easily-led young Muslims with yet another validation (in their perception, not mine) for their extremism.

I notice that since Spain withdrew troops there has been no more attacks, also why have they not attacked us infidels here in Ireland? We're right beside Britain, have a growing Muslim population and would be a soft target.

Explain Dar-fur, Indonesia or Chechnya.....the attacks there have nothing to do with America being in Iraq. Its about a war of Ideology and if you think just because this or that country is not in Iraq, then they will be safe....well, then that is very naive thinking. All you have to do is look at the world and see that it is much bigger than that....MUCH BIGGER.

Chechnya: not islamic extremism - legitimate struggle for statehood tarnished by terrorist activity.

Darfur: territorial battle - not islamic extremism - Arabs seeking to extend their hegemony over all of the land of Sudan.

Indonesia: genuine islamic extremism. How far away is Indonesia? How likely is their government to topple in the face of this minority movement?

Irrespective of all of this - we're fucking miles away from any of it!!!!!! War doesn't help or hinder it! Policing and intelligence does.

oug wrote:

agwood wrote:

If in fact the 140,000+ troops that may be massed on the Northern Iraqi border ONLY go after the rebel factions of Pkk and KDP and other Kurdish Terrorist groups...

So... you consider the PKK to be a terrorist organization? In what sense?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKK
It is an ethnic secessionist organization that uses force and the threat of force against both civilian[4] and military targets for the purpose of achieving its political goal.

The PKK is listed as a terrorist organization internationally by a number of states and organizations, including the USA, NATO and the EU.[5] More than 37,000 people have been killed in the Turkish-PKK conflict since 1984[6], 4,568 being military personnel.[

_1_MAN-ARMY.17 wrote:

Turkeys goal is to end the terrorism(Pkk) on east of Turkey and on northern Iraq. I think Turkey will not take any oil from there...

You could end the terrorism really quickly if you let the Kurds have their own country (and if your country didn't treat them like shit).

Turquoise wrote:

_1_MAN-ARMY.17 wrote:

Turkeys goal is to end the terrorism(Pkk) on east of Turkey and on northern Iraq. I think Turkey will not take any oil from there...

You could end the terrorism really quickly if you let the Kurds have their own country (and if your country didn't treat them like shit).

we will never let them seperate our country!

Braddock wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Braddock wrote:

The Iraq invasion has however provided AQ with a new base of operations to plan and direct attacks... on this level alone the Iraq invasion has been detrimental to the battle against terrorism. AQ did not have a foothold in Iraq during Saddam's reign. It has also added fuel to the 'us against them' fire and provided easily-led young Muslims with yet another validation (in their perception, not mine) for their extremism.

I notice that since Spain withdrew troops there has been no more attacks, also why have they not attacked us infidels here in Ireland? We're right beside Britain, have a growing Muslim population and would be a soft target.

Cause Irelands got the IRA.

That is actually regarded as a serious theory here, they reckon the IRA are the reason the mafia never penetrated Irish society. But they are inactive now and have relinquished their arsenal, plus using that logic Spain have ETA.

And the rest of the world has PETA an Al Qaeda. There's nothing to say Al Qaeda wouldn't attack either Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland mind.

M.O.A.B wrote:

Braddock wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Cause Irelands got the IRA.

That is actually regarded as a serious theory here, they reckon the IRA are the reason the mafia never penetrated Irish society. But they are inactive now and have relinquished their arsenal, plus using that logic Spain have ETA.

And the rest of the world has PETA an Al Qaeda. There's nothing to say Al Qaeda wouldn't attack either Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland mind.

That was my point originally, plus we're a soft target ...why aren't we being attacked? We're Western infidels who are refusing to implement Sharia law, why not attack us? Is it because we don't stick our nose in other countries affairs, I wonder?

CameronPoe wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Braddock wrote:

The Iraq invasion has however provided AQ with a new base of operations to plan and direct attacks... on this level alone the Iraq invasion has been detrimental to the battle against terrorism. AQ did not have a foothold in Iraq during Saddam's reign. It has also added fuel to the 'us against them' fire and provided easily-led young Muslims with yet another validation (in their perception, not mine) for their extremism.

I notice that since Spain withdrew troops there has been no more attacks, also why have they not attacked us infidels here in Ireland? We're right beside Britain, have a growing Muslim population and would be a soft target.

Explain Dar-fur, Indonesia or Chechnya.....the attacks there have nothing to do with America being in Iraq. Its about a war of Ideology and if you think just because this or that country is not in Iraq, then they will be safe....well, then that is very naive thinking. All you have to do is look at the world and see that it is much bigger than that....MUCH BIGGER.

Chechnya: not islamic extremism - legitimate struggle for statehood tarnished by terrorist activity.

Darfur: territorial battle - not islamic extremism - Arabs seeking to extend their hegemony over all of the land of Sudan.

Indonesia: genuine islamic extremism. How far away is Indonesia? How likely is their government to topple in the face of this minority movement?

Irrespective of all of this - we're fucking miles away from any of it!!!!!! War doesn't help or hinder it! Policing and intelligence does.

That is just not right. There are extremism in every example I put out there. My point is that the extremists use EVERY excuse possible to get involved all over the world just like they are doing in Dar-fur, in Chechnya and Indonesia and if you think that Indonesia has a minority movement then you have no idea what you are talking about. As I have said before, I was married for a long time to a muslim woman from Indonesia, I have family there to this day and there is NOT a minority movement, it is a major movement. When a muslim woman and her family are handed pamphlets threatening their lives if they step foot into anything western like a mall, a theater or Mcdonalds...that is not a minority movement. When theaters are destroyed and you walk around in fear of extremism in your own back yard....that is not minor. Indonesia has a serious problem ....just nobody hears about it.

I don't want to hear "I have a buddy who has a buddy who has a buddy who knows this guy in Indonesia and he says...." That is BS. I have first hand knowledge of this and I have my wife's experience as well as my family's experience there. That's what you don't understand. You keep saying its MILES away.....who cares...... Well, in this day and age, it touches more people than you think and it hits close to home even though I live 10,000 miles away. It pretty much sounds like you would rather have people sit on their hands while the masses die as you say "work it out themselves". Well, I would like to hear you say that  if your family was in the middle of it like mine has been and is. Then I don't think you would be so quick to just sit on your hands. But I guess that is you....it is definitely not me.

Last edited by DeathBecomesYu (2007-07-11 16:14:56)

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Braddock wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Quote from Second in Command of Al Qaida from his most recent tape.

In a new audiotape Tuesday, al-Qaida second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahri threatened Britain with more attacks, accusing London of defying the Islamic world by honoring novelist Salman Rushdie.

Hmmmm...sorry but I don't see anything about attacking Britain because it is in Iraq.

Basically, and excuse to attack another country..it doesn't matter at this point what is going on in Iraq. Read my post a few posts above. Its much bigger and it will not stop anytime soon.

The Iraq invasion has however provided AQ with a new base of operations to plan and direct attacks... on this level alone the Iraq invasion has been detrimental to the battle against terrorism. AQ did not have a foothold in Iraq during Saddam's reign. It has also added fuel to the 'us against them' fire and provided easily-led young Muslims with yet another validation (in their perception, not mine) for their extremism.

I notice that since Spain withdrew troops there has been no more attacks, also why have they not attacked us infidels here in Ireland? We're right beside Britain, have a growing Muslim population and would be a soft target.

Explain Dar-fur, Indonesia or Chechnya.....the attacks there have nothing to do with America being in Iraq. Its about a war of Ideology and if you think just because this or that country is not in Iraq, then they will be safe....well, then that is very naive thinking. All you have to do is look at the world and see that it is much bigger than that....MUCH BIGGER.

You missed a couple obvious ones.
[list]
[*]Algeria http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L01684897.htm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070711/ap_ … _bombing_7
[*]Philippines  http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070708/wl … 0708073152
http://www.calcuttanews.net/story/263788
http://in.news.yahoo.com/070616/137/6h2b4.html (Yes the Acronym is MILF)
[*]Thailand http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070710/3/34k2e.html
[*]Somolia http://www.sabcnews.com/africa/east_afr … 08,00.html

ATG wrote:

_1_MAN-ARMY.17 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

You could end the terrorism really quickly if you let the Kurds have their own country (and if your country didn't treat them like shit).

we will never let them seperate our country!

It will be interesting to see Turkeys standing army go up against the standing army in Iraq of America.

It will not be IED's and occupation but a conventional war and the Turks will be butchered.

Please remind your war mongering brethren of our capabilities in conventional war.

lol.. this reminds me of what Jon Stewart once said: "I know we've proven maybe were not so good at nation building, but I gotta tell ya we are still top notch nation un-builders."
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/504612/a_ … aily_show/

Ottomania wrote:

oug wrote:

agwood wrote:

If in fact the 140,000+ troops that may be massed on the Northern Iraqi border ONLY go after the rebel factions of Pkk and KDP and other Kurdish Terrorist groups...

So... you consider the PKK to be a terrorist organization? In what sense?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKK
It is an ethnic secessionist organization that uses force and the threat of force against both civilian[4] and military targets for the purpose of achieving its political goal.

The PKK is listed as a terrorist organization internationally by a number of states and organizations, including the USA, NATO and the EU.[5] More than 37,000 people have been killed in the Turkish-PKK conflict since 1984[6], 4,568 being military personnel.[

Sorry, I have been away from my computer for a few days. Exactly what Ottomania stated above, the PKK are pretty bad dudes, however they have historically not attacked Americans just mostly Turks. There are other Kurdish "independence" groups such as the KDP and PUK (they have historically not been on good terms with one another) that seem to be working more toward a peacefully establishment of a free Kurdistan, although I feel that all bets may be off depending on what the TGS deems strategically important to guarantee that the is no Kurdish State established in Northern Iraq or Eastern Turkey.

I by no means think that Turkey is wrong in doing what they are probably going to do. I have spent a great deal of time in places like Diyarbakir, Sirnak, Silopi and I understand that the Turks have been "at war" with Kurd separatist groups in the east since the 70's. I just have enough experience with the Turkish Government and Turkish General Staff to know that they might have more ambitious goals than just eliminating the PKK. The KDP and PUK are probably on thae same hit list as the PKK (KADEK) and I have concerns about how wrapped into the new Iraqi government those other groups are these days.

It will probably get a lot worse before it gets better though.

Last edited by agwood (2007-07-11 20:11:03)

I wonder if anyone believes if we did the following that the terrorists would NOT follow us home:

1.  Close all foreign military bases.
2.  Bring all military personnel back home.
3.  Close all Embassies.

I agree that if we went into isolation that domestically we could focus on our security and spend alot less on our military that we could spend domestic programs.  Also our soldiers would not be dying.

Would the terrorists not follow us home?  Will they focus on other countries?
Will the merchant ships that our military ships used to protect now be attacked?  How will this influence trade?  The price of oil?  What will happen to the world's economy?  Would this just be an incentive to get off oil and use alternative fuels?
Is the goal of the terrorists to convert everyone to Wahhabist version of Islam?  If you don't convert will terrorists kill you?  What will terrorists do if they are unabated?  If they have access to oil revenues?


Basically the chance that terrorists will NOT follow us home is probably the same chance that George W. Bush is accepted to Mensa.

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

That is just not right. There are extremism in every example I put out there. My point is that the extremists use EVERY excuse possible to get involved all over the world just like they are doing in Dar-fur, in Chechnya and Indonesia and if you think that Indonesia has a minority movement then you have no idea what you are talking about. As I have said before, I was married for a long time to a muslim woman from Indonesia, I have family there to this day and there is NOT a minority movement, it is a major movement. When a muslim woman and her family are handed pamphlets threatening their lives if they step foot into anything western like a mall, a theater or Mcdonalds...that is not a minority movement. When theaters are destroyed and you walk around in fear of extremism in your own back yard....that is not minor. Indonesia has a serious problem ....just nobody hears about it.

I don't want to hear "I have a buddy who has a buddy who has a buddy who knows this guy in Indonesia and he says...." That is BS. I have first hand knowledge of this and I have my wife's experience as well as my family's experience there. That's what you don't understand. You keep saying its MILES away.....who cares...... Well, in this day and age, it touches more people than you think and it hits close to home even though I live 10,000 miles away. It pretty much sounds like you would rather have people sit on their hands while the masses die as you say "work it out themselves". Well, I would like to hear you say that  if your family was in the middle of it like mine has been and is. Then I don't think you would be so quick to just sit on your hands. But I guess that is you....it is definitely not me.

Chechnya: Extremism yes. Islamic extremism no. It's the same type of extremism you got/get in Ireland over the occupied six counties.

Darfur: Extremism yes but not islam-based. It's just a bunch of arabs trying to nick all of the fertile land and dump the black inhabitants out into the wilderness. No 'higher calling' from Allah there.

I'm going to make some points with regards to your Indonesia example:

a)

You have a personal sob story about some third world country that had been ruled by the US/Western-backed dictator General Suharto for 30 years. Try taking your case to the Congress - see what reaction you'll get. How many Zimbabweans live in America wondering why the 'great benevolent' superpower doesn't do something about their starving oppressed relatives back home? How many Palestinians live in America wondering why the 'great benevolent' superpower doesn't stop unconditionally supporting Israel decimate their land and try to drive them off it? How many Chechnyans live in America wondering why the 'great benevolent' superpower doesn't do something about how Russia is razing Chechnya to the ground to keep its oil wealth and deny Chechnyans their legitimate claim to a democratically supported independent state of their own?

America and every western nation is at its core selfish: they intervene internationally for personal/strategic gain. You won't see any western nation touch Indonesia with a barge pole, irrespective of what happens there, because there's nothing really in it for them and the task is too great.

A lot of people seem to be labouring under the delusion that America is some kind of superman that must travel the world solving problems. Don't buy into the bullshit. It will do things that appear benevolent generally purely by coincidence.


b)

Indonesia is not and will not be a threat to the west. If Indonesians want an Islamic state then that's their prerogative. If they don't then they should get up and fight the bastards. It's nobody's responsibility but THEIR OWN.

c)

The reason the west is a target and Islamic extremism has been allowed to flourish is because for far too long - centuries - the west has interfered and exploited the rest of the world. That has to end now to remove any excuses. If they continue to attack us then we can respond in kind, morally clear of conscience.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-07-12 02:28:09)

ATG wrote:

_1_MAN-ARMY.17 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

You could end the terrorism really quickly if you let the Kurds have their own country (and if your country didn't treat them like shit).

we will never let them seperate our country!

It will be interesting to see Turkeys standing army go up against the standing army in Iraq of America.

It will not be IED's and occupation but a conventional war and the Turks will be butchered.

Please remind your war mongering brethren of our capabilities in conventional war.

What the hell is wrong with you? They want to get rid of the TERRORISTS in Kurdistan. In what way is that war against America? In what way is that NOT helping you guys out (helping out the Coalition) by getting rid of extremists in that area? This is the war on terrorism buddy, don't cry when someone else wants to kill terrorists.

Besides they're both part of NATO. I doubt they'd fight each other.