BF2S Forums What if this was "America" instead of "Pakistan"

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

...now that i have your attention, will you address the concrete steps we should take to eliminate islamic fascism?

Keep them over there and keep us over here. Simple as that. Nuclear deterrency will do the rest, as successfully demonstrated during the Cold War.

the flaw in this argument is that for nuclear deterrence to work, you have to want to live.  seems like the people intending to use nukes on US/Israel are the ones looking for those 72 virgins in the land of milk and honey. 

I'd actually consider relocating the Israelis to the US.  It would be great to have more doctors, scientists, and educated people over here.

Im pretty certain there are more non-Israeli doctors and scientist in the middle east than there are Israeli.  Baghdad was the meeting point of the entire worlds enlightenment at one point in history.

CameronPoe wrote:

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Keep them over there and keep us over here. Simple as that. Nuclear deterrency will do the rest, as successfully demonstrated during the Cold War.

the flaw in this argument is that for nuclear deterrence to work, you have to want to live.  seems like the people intending to use nukes on US/Israel are the ones looking for those 72 virgins in the land of milk and honey. 

I'd actually consider relocating the Israelis to the US.  It would be great to have more doctors, scientists, and educated people over here.

Islamic terrorists nuking USA? Don't be preposterous. They'll be nuking each other before they get around to that. I don't think any Islamic nation will nuke Israel - they're not stupid - but a group of rogue bandits could attempt a dirty bomb at some point.

I'm not so sure....

Not about the Islamic states nuking anyone - that won't happen. But Iran do have a track record of arming terrorists. If they were to accidentally mislay some nuclear technology, that happened to end up being used by terrorists, that would be a big concern.

I'm begining to get slightly concerned over the nuclear Iran issue for precisely that reason. I think the US should try to convince Israel to scrap their nuclear weapons in exchange for Iran scrapping their enrichment programme - I reckon the Iranians might go for that. The Israelis wouldn't like it, but what do they possibly need nukes for? The US has their back and they have plenty of nukes for both of them.

CameronPoe wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Honestly...I could care less about the coverage at this point...when I made my post...the story was new and it has grown since then...of course it was our holiday yesterday,,,,up late and slept in today...so my bad.

But that is not the main point I was making. Wow...people get a hold of something and forget the rest of the post. My main point was that we will not see protests from the muslim world because of this. I'm not expecting people to rush out onto the streets all at once but we will not see protests from the mainstream muslim world against what these cowards are doing. It just wont happen....but if it was an American army operation....hell yes, we would see demonstrations in countries like Iran, Syria..etc., it has happened before and it is very hypocritical. That is all I am saying.

It's not hypocritical for the reason I mentioned: Domestic Issue v Foreign Intervention. People in the rest of the world couldn't give a fuck what goes on internally within the US. Likewise we don't give a fuck if Botswana has outlawed the use of marmalade on toast.

Im talking about the hypocrisy of the general muslim population to sit on their hands when something like this is happening. Even then, their logic will be to condemn the Pakistan military for attacking the mosque rather than the radicals holding women and children inside their mosques...including weapons. That is what I am speaking off. If it were American involvement then you know exactly what they would do.

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

will you address the concrete steps we should take to eliminate islamic fascism?

eliminate poverty.  eliminate corporate greed.  fair trade instead of free trade.  put more stock in the United Nations instead of complaining about how shitty the organization is.  Its on us as world citizens to fix that entity.  Its there for a reason.  Islamic Fascism (I would rather call it fundamental religious rule) rises from the uneducated and the poor.  Is it better to treat the symptons or get rid of the disease in the first place?  I know a lot of people will disagree with, especially with the UN.  But the problem as I see it, is that there is too much whining and not enough action.  People get too stuck on what its not doing when they should talking about how to fix that problem in the first place.  The UN is great idea.  and its young.  Its got room for error right now.  My opinion, im stupid.

i like where you are going with this (eg:  we need more action).  indeed this is the case.  however, when one starts actually going about taking action, this is where you become unpopular and get attacked left and right.  The UN is so corrupt it's not funny.  This needs to get fixed and soon and whomever does it can tell the critics to suck it.  get 'er done.

i also agree about the poverty thing.  where there's poverty is also where there is lack of education.  Having said that you still will get nut-jobs like these guys in Scotland with the jeep-bomb at the airport who were supposedly doctors (educated people).  but, i think the chances are much less.  i guess the run-of-the-mill terrorist sees his life as shitty and there's no chance of it improving so why not do something terrible.  So how can we make his life better to the point of him not losing hope?  opportunities/jobs/security

that said, i think the time of arbitrarily doling out money to corrupt and disingenuous entities like the Palestinian authority and the UN should be rethought.  The 60s seem to me to have taught us that just giving out money leads to the 'entitlement' mentality and lack of 'gumption' to go out and do something great with your life.  if i were unemployed in iraq, i bet you within a year i could make a comfortable living hauling trash.  doesn't sound glamorous but everyone sees what a shithole it is.  i'd try to improve the situation by keeping iraq beautiful and at the same time, i'd be making a buck or two.  i'm sure there are some good entrepreneurs on this board that can think of better ways.  BUT the idea here is to have it in your head to actually go out and 'do' these things instead of just bitching and crying all day 'woe is me'.  work hard and success follows.

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Keep them over there and keep us over here. Simple as that. Nuclear deterrency will do the rest, as successfully demonstrated during the Cold War.

the flaw in this argument is that for nuclear deterrence to work, you have to want to live.  seems like the people intending to use nukes on US/Israel are the ones looking for those 72 virgins in the land of milk and honey. 

I'd actually consider relocating the Israelis to the US.  It would be great to have more doctors, scientists, and educated people over here.

Im pretty certain there are more non-Israeli doctors and scientist in the middle east than there are Israeli.  Baghdad was the meeting point of the entire worlds enlightenment at one point in history.

...at one point in history.  this is true.  however in the 30 or so years that Saddam has been in power...?  Also has there been any groundbreaking research in medicine from Egypt, Jordan, Iran, etc?  i'm just asking here - i really don't know.

also true that there are more non-israeli doctors in ME but that's simply a matter of numbers. 

My main point is that if we have immigration, i'd rather get a doctor or scientist than a non-skilled worker.

Last edited by CaptainSpaulding71 (2007-07-05 12:40:44)

Bertster7 wrote:

That's a big problem with immigration. The people who are desireable and have much needed skills can all leave these countries quite easily to persue careers somewhere nicer. But that leaves the worse off countries in an even worse state than they were. They're not going to improve that way.

i don't see these countries (even the US for that matter) really pushing their people to further their education, fund job programs that teach real usable skills, etc.  The dictatorships and islamo-craptic govts seem to enjoy keeping the 'masses' in the dark so that they can control them better.  It's much easier for these governments to keep the masses' anger (due to their crappy living conditions) focused on the great satan instead of simply fixing the real problem.  As a matter of fact, i would expect that this actually encourages the educated people to find a way out because they truly see what stupidity it really is and have a means to escape.

how much pressure can the UN (for example) put on these countries to actually address their rampant unemployment and other social problems? 

on a lighter note, i think some of this has to do with having 3947839047830498 kids.  quick fucking fucking!  pull out when it tickles.  damn.

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Honestly...I could care less about the coverage at this point...when I made my post...the story was new and it has grown since then...of course it was our holiday yesterday,,,,up late and slept in today...so my bad.

But that is not the main point I was making. Wow...people get a hold of something and forget the rest of the post. My main point was that we will not see protests from the muslim world because of this. I'm not expecting people to rush out onto the streets all at once but we will not see protests from the mainstream muslim world against what these cowards are doing. It just wont happen....but if it was an American army operation....hell yes, we would see demonstrations in countries like Iran, Syria..etc., it has happened before and it is very hypocritical. That is all I am saying.

It's not hypocritical for the reason I mentioned: Domestic Issue v Foreign Intervention. People in the rest of the world couldn't give a fuck what goes on internally within the US. Likewise we don't give a fuck if Botswana has outlawed the use of marmalade on toast.

Im talking about the hypocrisy of the general muslim population to sit on their hands when something like this is happening. Even then, their logic will be to condemn the Pakistan military for attacking the mosque rather than the radicals holding women and children inside their mosques...including weapons. That is what I am speaking off. If it were American involvement then you know exactly what they would do.

i think you mentioned this in another post that people tend not to say things because they are 'scared' to say it living in a muslim country.  Those that live in the US, etc have the freedom to say whatever and people don't firebomb their house.  not so perhaps in Indonesia or other places.

i'd like to give muslims the benefit of the doubt here that they may 'think' these types of actions as abhorrent.  However, the other half of me is trying to understand that if they are the larger majority (saying that violence is not ok), then why not DO things to prevent it.  Some people view this as complicity or apathy.  i hope this is not the case.

think of it this way, if i'm on a plane with 200 passengers and there's a guy with a gun hijacking it, then I'd be first in line trying to rush the guy.  There's only what like 10 or so bullets in a clip?  That's alot less than 200.  Plus, he may not even kill me because of the commotion.  However, the passengers would definitely subdue the guy (and probably kill him).  is it a risk worth taking?  to save 200 people?  i say yes.  but that's just me.

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

That's a big problem with immigration. The people who are desireable and have much needed skills can all leave these countries quite easily to persue careers somewhere nicer. But that leaves the worse off countries in an even worse state than they were. They're not going to improve that way.

i don't see these countries (even the US for that matter) really pushing their people to further their education, fund job programs that teach real usable skills, etc.  The dictatorships and islamo-craptic govts seem to enjoy keeping the 'masses' in the dark so that they can control them better.  It's much easier for these governments to keep the masses' anger (due to their crappy living conditions) focused on the great satan instead of simply fixing the real problem.  As a matter of fact, i would expect that this actually encourages the educated people to find a way out because they truly see what stupidity it really is and have a means to escape.

how much pressure can the UN (for example) put on these countries to actually address their rampant unemployment and other social problems? 

on a lighter note, i think some of this has to do with having 3947839047830498 kids.  quick fucking fucking!  pull out when it tickles.  damn.

great post

Shame it's mostly nonsense (*edit*actually only really the "dictatorships and islamo-craptic govts seem to enjoy keeping the 'masses' in the dark so that they can control them better"). Except for the having too many kids part - which is the real problem.

The unemployment issues stem from a ever increasing workforce that is unmatched by economic growth (although in Pakistan they're doing a damn good job of keeping economic growth in line with the increasing labour force). There are lots of highly skilled workers in most of these countries and they are trained to a high standard - for example, my cousin is married to an Iranian (who's a really, really nice guy), he grew up in Iran and moved to the UK to work for Ericsson doing mobile phone OS design. Another example, a girl I was shagging for a while got her boob job done by an Iraqi doctor on Harley Street, he was trained in Iraq.

That is a big part of the problem, the people who could bring real improvement to these countries from the skills they have learned there, emmigrate somewhere nicer, where they'll make more money and have a higher quality of life - and who can blame them, it's what I'd do.


They do train people. But then they all fuck off somewhere else where they can live better lives.


The only way to solve these problems is to:
A) Stop anyone educated leaving the country - which won't work.
B) Control the population through birth control, financial incentives for only having one child etc. - which won't work, because the majority are strict muslims.
C)Have a massive low skilled production industry churning out super cheap products, hard to do well.

All in all, looks like their fucked.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2007-07-05 14:15:20)

Spark wrote:

C)Have a massive low skilled production industry churning out super cheap products, hard to do well.

But when it does work... damn, does it work.[/b]

eg:  china?

Bertster7 wrote:

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

Spark wrote:

But when it does work... damn, does it work.[/b]

eg:  china?

Damn straight!

I dunno what the Indians and Pakistanis do to make all their money, but their economies are growing really fast too.

(I think the Indians all work in telephone call centres or something, 'cos most of them speak English and they seem to phone me up about 10 times a day trying to sell me stuff)

here's what they do:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/509277/ou … too_funny/

lol.  enjoy.