Sicko

2007-06-25 17:28:23

#1

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6423|North Carolina

First and Foremost, I recently saw "Sicko", Michael Moore's latest film. Even though Moore obviously evokes a lot of hate from the Right (some of it justified), I can honestly say that this was his best movie. "Fahrenheit 9/11" focused a lot on politics, and in some areas, it ran short on facts. "Sicko" is basically the opposite.

Even though "Sicko" is still political at its core, it takes a more populist approach than Moore's previous movies. It asks the simple question: If most of the First World has a decent socialized healthcare system, why doesn't America? Why are we so focused on profit and not on community?

Support for a socialized healthcare system is primarily founded on the fact that, even aside from the millions of uninsured Americans, those of us that are insured pay premium prices for shitty coverage. Healthcare providers can get away with far more things in America than anywhere else in the First World.

So really... why should we have to pay so much for shitty service? It just doesn't make sense when you compare our system to that of places like Canada, the U.K., and France.

Now, admittedly, Moore takes things a bit far by trying to portray Cuba's system as better than ours. I don't buy that Cuba has a better system.

However, I will say that Moore, whether intentionally or unintentionally, proves that the prisoners at Gitmo are treated better than many free citizens when it comes to healthcare in America. He goes into great detail as to how the medical facilities and services are pretty advanced in Guantanamo Bay.

So, Moore does inadvertently manage to defuse the arguments that things are so harsh in Gitmo. That would typically be a conservative view, but I would guess that Moore still believes that Gitmo was being run improperly when it comes to how some people have been detained for years without any formal charges having been made against them.

Anyway, I just thought I'd share all of this stuff with you guys and leave you with the question: Why not socialize medicine here?

By the way, before anyone brings it up, Moore talks with a lot of Canadians about waiting periods for care, and the waits don't seem any worse than ours. In many cases, they get served faster than us....

2007-06-25 17:32:49

#2

Fear_ofthe_Dark: Member; +2|6407

Because we're greedy bastards in America.

wrong about the waiting, life saving surgery can take months in Canada, a couple a days here. (it is true my father is a doctor; he knows)

2007-06-25 17:34:34

#3

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6423|North Carolina

Fear_ofthe_Dark wrote:
Because we're greedy bastards in America.

wrong about the waiting, life saving surgery can take months in Canada, a couple a days here. (it is true my father is a doctor; he knows)

Does he live in Canada?

2007-06-25 17:35:54

#4

Marconius: One-eyed Wonder Mod; +368|6712|San Francisco

Moore's message is if people are too determined to not just copy someone else's system, why not just do what's truly American and borrow ideas from the Canadian, French, and British single-payer systems and come up with our own "melting-pot" version of it.

Moore recently invited 900 Medical/Pharmaceutical lobbyists to view SiCKO, and only 11 showed up. At the meeting prior to the movie, he mentions how Taiwan was able to pull something together. They used to have a privatized system, and now have a good socialized medicine structure while remaining one of the top Capitalist nations in the world.

_{Small plug for my thread about health systems in other countries here}

2007-06-25 17:51:45

#5

GunSlinger OIF II: Banned.; +1,860|6662

whats wrong with everyone being healthy?

2007-06-25 18:10:12

#6

DesertFox-: The very model of a modern major general; +794|6703|United States of America

I'm not really edumacated on much medical things but which do you desire since only one is necessary? We can either act to improve medical service while trying to also cut costs or socialize it all the way.

Interesting fact about government paying for things though: people didn't always so readily accept government handouts. I was talking to my father about all sorts of things when the topic came to illegal immigrants as leeches on the system. He told me of how his father, when he was kicked out of their apartment by his witch of a wife, slept in the park rather than accept government issued funds because that was one of the most embarassing things to do at the time. During the Great Depression, citizens needed to be prodded to accept the relief money because the people of this country wanted to work for it and do things on their own. When the Social Security Act was put into effect, far fewer than expected originally sought it. However, things have changed since then, in a direction some may call a worse way.

2007-06-25 18:10:54

#7

usmarine: Banned; +2,785|6780

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
whats wrong with everyone being healthy?

dolla bills

2007-06-25 18:15:55

#8

Liberal-Sl@yer: Certified BF2S Asshole; +131|6474|The edge of sanity

Because We are a highly capitalistic socitey bent on opressing the poor and world domination

2007-06-25 18:19:46

#9

usmarine: Banned; +2,785|6780

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:
Because We are a highly capitalistic socitey bent on opressing the poor and world domination

We also hate puppies.

2007-06-25 18:24:19

#10

Liberal-Sl@yer: Certified BF2S Asshole; +131|6474|The edge of sanity

usmarine2005 wrote:
Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:
Because We are a highly capitalistic socitey bent on opressing the poor and world domination
We also hate puppies.

We beat puppies with kittens

2007-06-25 18:39:31

#11

Captain_Iron_shooter: Member; +2|6707|Montreal, QC. Canada

Fear_ofthe_Dark wrote:
Because we're greedy bastards in America.

wrong about the waiting, life saving surgery can take months in Canada, a couple a days here. (it is true my father is a doctor; he knows)

usually not the surgery it's self that is long to get, but to detect the real problem. It can take months to see a specialist, and if you have a cancer..... months of waiting isn't a good thing .

As for complete, state (province) paid healthcare system, I don't think it's gonna last very long for us here. As baby-boomers grow old, more of them are going to need healthcare, and there will be less working people ( something like 2 worker for 1 boomers by 2030, instead of 5 or 7 right now) to pay taxes to finance all those expensive healthcare system. Not to mention all the other stuff Canadian get from there governement like old age security or Canadian pension plan.... etc.

Lots of people here start to pay to get faster service (i'm thinking about it myself). The best would be kinda of an hybrid system, but we don't want a system where someone with money get the better treatment then one with none. Lets just say Canada healtcare system isn't great, but i rather be sick here, than in the US. (i mean cost-wise, i'm sure your doctor are as good as ours:) )

2007-06-25 18:50:05

#12

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6423|North Carolina

Captain_Iron_shooter wrote:
Fear_ofthe_Dark wrote:
Because we're greedy bastards in America.

wrong about the waiting, life saving surgery can take months in Canada, a couple a days here. (it is true my father is a doctor; he knows)
usually not the surgery it's self that is long to get, but to detect the real problem. It can take months to see a specialist, and if you have a cancer..... months of waiting isn't a good thing .

As for complete, state (province) paid healthcare system, I don't think it's gonna last very long for us here. As baby-boomers grow old, more of them are going to need healthcare, and there will be less working people ( something like 2 worker for 1 boomers by 2030, instead of 5 or 7 right now) to pay taxes to finance all those expensive healthcare system. Not to mention all the other stuff Canadian get from there governement like old age security or Canadian pension plan.... etc.

Lots of people here start to pay to get faster service (i'm thinking about it myself). The best would be kinda of an hybrid system, but we don't want a system where someone with money get the better treatment then one with none. Lets just say Canada healtcare system isn't great, but i rather be sick here, than in the US. (i mean cost-wise, i'm sure your doctor are as good as ours:) )

Interesting... See, the problem here is that you still have to wait a while, and in the case of my brother, he's had to wait about a month for some robotic surgery on his kidney. It's not life-threatening, but considering how much it costs, you'd think that they'd serve you faster here.

Most of the input I've gotten from Canadians on this topic seems to suggest that the waiting here and over in your country isn't that different, whereas you guys pay far less than we do.

At this point, I just want more affordable healthcare.

2007-06-25 19:24:16

#13

iamangry: Member; +59|6664|The United States of America

Big corporations which are heard over the people due to the overwhelming amount of money it takes to run a political campaign in a two party system that is unofficially sanctioned and encouraged by a government run by that two party system is the root of all of our short comings as a nation today. I would prove this point in great detail, but I think we all know it's true, and I have work in the morning so the government can take more of my money to do the will of large corporate entities instead of my will despite the fact that we pay more money to them (926 bil i believe) than the corporations do (425bil i believe). I don't start making money until lunchtime on Tuesday in a regular workweek!!. That's just not right.

2007-06-25 19:30:51

#14

Captain_Iron_shooter: Member; +2|6707|Montreal, QC. Canada

Turquoise wrote:
Most of the input I've gotten from Canadians on this topic seems to suggest that the waiting here and over in your country isn't that different, whereas you guys pay far less than we do.

It probablly cost the same, it's just that we pool money (with our taxes and income taxes) to pay for this. So when i go to the hospital for a broken leg i get out of there with no bill. You on the other end have a bill of a few hundreds (if not thousand, educate me here).

You pay for your service by the piece when you need it, I'll pay all my life (and every canadian do) for services I may need or not.

Last year i paid 9800$ (Federal / provincial income taxes combine) plus all the taxes i paid when i bought something or paid for another service like cable tv or electricity. More then 1/4 of what I earned want to the government. And I'm pretty sure more then half of this goes to healthcare

As for the waiting time, it's a combination of bad move by many provincial government and trying to balance provincial budget (healthcare is run by provincial gov.) that makes for the long waiting time. They cut on healthcare budget few years back and now they're trying to fix it. And i heard it was not better in rich province like Alberta (oil money) But maybe someone from there can tell us???

Sorry for my English, it may not be perfect . Quebec is the french speaking province of Canada. I don't use what i've learned of english too often.

2007-06-25 21:06:48

#15

Ajax_the_Great1: Dropped on request; +206|6665

oooo.... going after the health care industry. That must be really hard to do... He's just trying to redeem his image by doing something easy.

2007-06-25 21:13:40

#16

Cheez: Herman is a warmaphrodite; +1,027|6457|King Of The Islands

Our hospitals > Your hospitals.

- I'll have that bottle of $70 pills, thanks.
- That'll be $4.95.

My state was founded by Batman. Your opinion is invalid.

2007-06-25 21:29:50

#17

usmarine: Banned; +2,785|6780

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:
oooo.... going after the health care industry. That must be really hard to do... He's just trying to redeem his image by doing something easy.

I agree. Iraq, Columbine, Health Care. Try something we do not know.

2007-06-25 21:35:53

#18

HURLEY: Ima Crunchatize you.; +170|6701|The Lou

Cheez wrote:
Our hospitals > Your hospitals.

- I'll have that bottle of $70 pills, thanks.
- That'll be $4.95.

G4U!!!!!1'

want a bj?

2007-06-25 21:51:07

#19

-=raska=-: Canada's French Frog; +123|6644|Quebec city, Canada

Im not aware of the waiting period in the USA, but I know that in Canada, especially here in province of Quebec, it may be very long. Lots of people die, waiting for their surgery. Some people wait several months to get what they need to survive. I'm pretty sure that on average, waiting lines are shorter in the US than they are here in Quebec. Btw, thats one of the biggest problem we have here, and political partys rely on this subject to build their programs. Here, people want change, and we are thinking to open our mind a bit more to the private sector.

Michael Moore stated that the health care system was one of the best here in Canada, but because of the election of the Conservative party (federal) a few years ago, it was going worse and worse.

Unfortunately for Mr Moore, the Conservative party was only elected at the end of 2005, and secondly, health care systems rely mostly on provincial governements, not on federal gov.

So this makes me thing that sometimes, Michael Moore has no idea of what he talks about... and its enough for me to question his credibility.

Last edited by -=raska=- (2007-06-25 21:52:36)

2007-06-26 05:02:21

#20

ghettoperson: Member; +1,943|6667

Turquoise wrote:
Now, admittedly, Moore takes things a bit far by trying to portray Cuba's system as better than ours. I don't buy that Cuba has a better system.

I thought Cuba actually had one of the best healthcare services in the world?

2007-06-26 05:15:11

#21

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6574

ghettoperson wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
Now, admittedly, Moore takes things a bit far by trying to portray Cuba's system as better than ours. I don't buy that Cuba has a better system.
I thought Cuba actually had one of the best healthcare services in the world?

Given that it has a comparable life expectancy with the west but none of the fancy drugs I'd say it is definitely a better healthcare system.

2007-06-26 05:15:26

#22

JahManRed: wank; +646|6646|IRELAND

ghettoperson wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
Now, admittedly, Moore takes things a bit far by trying to portray Cuba's system as better than ours. I don't buy that Cuba has a better system.
I thought Cuba actually had one of the best healthcare services in the world?

It does, something like 1 doctor to every 250 ppl. They advise you on everything from diet to an exercise regime. If you don't come and see them every 4months, they come round your house looking for you.

2007-06-26 05:41:52

#23

Mason4Assassin444: retired; +552|6680|USA

Wow. Alot of asshat responses from people who haven't seen it. Good game.

Cuba has better trained doctors also.

And just to be fair no socialists healthcare system is perfect, but you ask a canadian or a frenchman if they would like to switch systems with the US, see what response you get.

Last edited by Mason4Assassin444 (2007-06-26 05:47:00)

2007-06-26 14:57:12

#24

-=raska=-: Canada's French Frog; +123|6644|Quebec city, Canada

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:
Wow. Alot of asshat responses from people who haven't seen it. Good game.

Cuba has better trained doctors also.

And just to be fair no socialists healthcare system is perfect, but you ask a canadian or a frenchman if they would like to switch systems with the US, see what response you get.

Calm down I just wanted to give my opinion according to what I read in previous posts.

BF2S Forums Sicko

Fear_ofthe_Dark wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Fear_ofthe_Dark wrote:

Captain_Iron_shooter wrote:

Fear_ofthe_Dark wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Cheez wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

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