Well thats how Johnny and the Liberals think. They think that if you remove it they won't be able to get it, but they are all east coasters with suits and good salaries who have no idea what it's like to live in Northern and Central Australia.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Not only that, but if they want the booze, they will find it. Same with the pornography. I honestly can't understand how people can rationalize that taking away alcohol and pornography will magically make the problems in Aboriginal society disappear. Address the poverty and lack of education, lack of jobs, etc.usmarine2005 wrote:
I see your point. But that is just like putting a band-aid on an amputation. If you take away the booze, then crime will increase so they can get the booze.Ssandstorm wrote:
Do you understand that over the last few years remote outback communities have gone completely out of control, with child molestation and drug/alcohol abuse now considered the norm, rather than an anomaly? I can't criticise a move that aims to protect children from abuse. Are adults rights to drink alcohol and have access to a freeloader welfare system more important than a child's rights to live without violence and degradation?
As a public servant distributing welfare, let me just say that apart from special projects etc, indigenous Australians get no more welfare than ANY OTHER member of Australian society, its about time that furphy was put to rest.weasel_thingo wrote:
aborigine's get extra money they use this money on beer and then get drunk and complain about having the right to drink beer and demand more money and on goes the cycle. this isnt all of them but lots of them do this and similar things to do with them getting drunk
Its one thing to "volunteer" to live on $200 a week as a city "dole bludger", its another thing to try to live on that money when fresh food costs 3 times as much in outback areas as it does in the city, with no job prospects and discrimination getting in the way of any improvement.
Look up the OPAL Fuel program and the Volatile Substance Abuse Prevention Act...TeamZephyr wrote:
Well thats how Johnny and the Liberals think. They think that if you remove it they won't be able to get it, but they are all east coasters with suits and good salaries who have no idea what it's like to live in Northern and Central Australia.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Not only that, but if they want the booze, they will find it. Same with the pornography. I honestly can't understand how people can rationalize that taking away alcohol and pornography will magically make the problems in Aboriginal society disappear. Address the poverty and lack of education, lack of jobs, etc.usmarine2005 wrote:
I see your point. But that is just like putting a band-aid on an amputation. If you take away the booze, then crime will increase so they can get the booze.
You have very little idea of what you are talking about too it seems. OPAL Fuel program is WORKING. I've been following the VSAP Act since the idea was proposed in the Legislative Assembly and the Chief Justice of the NT, with whom I talked last month, said both had been very effective in wiping out the problem of petrol sniffing so far. Paint sniffing is on the rise though, but a far lesser problem.
For the rest of you, you're all ignoring the fact that their welfare payments will now be linked to school attendence. If their children aren't attending school their payments are cut in half and apparently some sort of government program will be instituted to ensure they are fed properly.
Can't provide source as it was on local radio this morning while I was on my way to work. 106.9 Gove FM, apparently a similar story with the same info ran on Australian National ABC radio though.
On the subject of employment... How do you employ somebody who will spend 3 hours every morning for 3 months in mourning for somebody in the community who died, who is not necessarily a family member or close friend and will not show up for work at all during this time... but will ask for paid leave instead... Because that's what some of the family and clan communities around Alice Springs do.
For the record, I grew up near 3 of these communities, and am currently sitting within 100km of around 20 or so similar communities. The thing is, the problems are limited to central Australian aboriginal communities, the ones I'm near right now will be largely unaffected as they are mostly costal communities with an entirely different culture. Far less violent and conflicting.
Sadly, Ski Beach, which I live 20km from and quite like... Beautiful scenery and very friendly people when they aren't intoxicated.
Also has the highest suicide rates per everything (capita, monthly, annum... you name it...) IN THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE. Also rather well buried info.
Ratzinger is right on the welfare subject, they don't get any more money than other Australians. Just get special consideration for housing commission housing (in the NT anyway) and have the CDEP as well. CDEP does NOT work in the remote communities.
This action might seem a little extreme or desperate. Extreme and desperate measures are needed though. Things have to change, and now. Roots of the problems can be looked at in a few months. It's tradgic to see what's happened to two of my childhood friends. Personally, harsh measures like this are needed but I'd rather see more involvement from people such as Noel Pearson.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
The wiki article on where I live, for anybody who is interested. Completing high school here, half of my subjects by corrospondence.
Edit.
Bahaha, just noticed, the airport terminal pic is out of date by about 2 years. Had a new terminal built that is far more secure.
The region is definitely worth a visit... Stunning land and coastline. Yirrikala rocks too, great local AFL comp and awesome beaches, though the Arts Centre charges a LOT. Yirrikala is also one of the aforementioned dry towns, though Kava is legal.
Why the fuck would you ban alcohol then allow kava?
Good fishing and diving in the region too. Especially the local crayfish.
Edit.
Bahaha, just noticed, the airport terminal pic is out of date by about 2 years. Had a new terminal built that is far more secure.
The region is definitely worth a visit... Stunning land and coastline. Yirrikala rocks too, great local AFL comp and awesome beaches, though the Arts Centre charges a LOT. Yirrikala is also one of the aforementioned dry towns, though Kava is legal.
Why the fuck would you ban alcohol then allow kava?
Good fishing and diving in the region too. Especially the local crayfish.
Last edited by Flecco (2007-06-21 19:29:45)
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
There are already areas in Australia where alcohol is banned and also areas where petrol is banned.
Not banned...cospengle wrote:
There are already areas in Australia where alcohol is banned and also areas where petrol is banned.
Again, look up the OPAL fuel program. It's petrol, just a different blend of petroleum.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Sorry Flecco, your post wasn't there when I started mine.
Thanks for your input. I'm sure this thread will benfit from having input from someone who actually knows the situation.
I don't know why the OP wanted to make this into a civil rights issue. Surely the welfare of children should be the primary concern. If it was your 6 month old baby being raped I'm sure you would have a different view. BTW This is not a racial issue (although most Americans seem to think racal and social issues are inextricably liked somehow - probably due to the stiuation over there, I don't know). This is about stopping some of the most horrific injustices imaginable. If that means impinging on some people's civil liberties then so be it. To take no action would be criminal.
Edit: spelling
Thanks for your input. I'm sure this thread will benfit from having input from someone who actually knows the situation.
I don't know why the OP wanted to make this into a civil rights issue. Surely the welfare of children should be the primary concern. If it was your 6 month old baby being raped I'm sure you would have a different view. BTW This is not a racial issue (although most Americans seem to think racal and social issues are inextricably liked somehow - probably due to the stiuation over there, I don't know). This is about stopping some of the most horrific injustices imaginable. If that means impinging on some people's civil liberties then so be it. To take no action would be criminal.
Edit: spelling
Last edited by cospengle (2007-06-21 19:53:34)
cospengle is right. It's not racial, Yirrikala doesn't need extra policing. Night patrol do a great job.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
They aren't banning Aboriginals for having alcohol and porn, they're banning people (white or black) in Aboriginal communities from having porn. The amount of parental abuse in those communities is far worse than in urbanised areas. The argument isn't that other people don't abuse children, but that other communities aren't being utterly destroyed by problems related to alcohol.
Further, it isn't a bill of rights issue: consider that certain drugs (and I believe certain alcoholic beverages, like absynthe?) are illegal in the US (and just about everywhere), because of the effect they have on the community. This is just the same.
As to banning porn.........well, that's debatable. Having said that, the suggestions are coming from community leaders. The issue I have is that they're happy to ban things, but won't shell out the money and manpower for the rest of what's being suggested, and is needed. Restrictions alone will never fix anything.
Further, it isn't a bill of rights issue: consider that certain drugs (and I believe certain alcoholic beverages, like absynthe?) are illegal in the US (and just about everywhere), because of the effect they have on the community. This is just the same.
As to banning porn.........well, that's debatable. Having said that, the suggestions are coming from community leaders. The issue I have is that they're happy to ban things, but won't shell out the money and manpower for the rest of what's being suggested, and is needed. Restrictions alone will never fix anything.
OMG my porn will soon be even more illegal for me to look at...coz im underage
Yeah, I don't think it's technically illegal for you to look at porn, as Australian movies only have advisory ratings. Having said that, you do need guardian approval.
Bubs, this is the Liberal Party in government....Bubbalo wrote:
They aren't banning Aboriginals for having alcohol and porn, they're banning people (white or black) in Aboriginal communities from having porn. The amount of parental abuse in those communities is far worse than in urbanised areas. The argument isn't that other people don't abuse children, but that other communities aren't being utterly destroyed by problems related to alcohol.
Further, it isn't a bill of rights issue: consider that certain drugs (and I believe certain alcoholic beverages, like absynthe?) are illegal in the US (and just about everywhere), because of the effect they have on the community. This is just the same.
As to banning porn.........well, that's debatable. Having said that, the suggestions are coming from community leaders. The issue I have is that they're happy to ban things, but won't shell out the money and manpower for the rest of what's being suggested, and is needed. Restrictions alone will never fix anything.
Do you really expect them to pay for anything? Bahahaha...
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Sure, I expect them to pay for wine and guns, which brings as back to alcoholism and violence...................
Bob Hawke also said 'no child in Australia would be living in poverty' & that went nowhere.
Dont pay to much attention to politicians..
Dont pay to much attention to politicians..
I saw a TV interview where the PM said it would apply to all welfare payments (in the affected areas). He wouldn't discriminate between aboriginal and non-aboriginal people.usmarine2005 wrote:
"If they're going to do that, they're going to have to do that with every single person in Australia, not just black people," she said."
Not sure how this is legal.
It is legal because the 'Northern Territory' is a federal territory. This means that the Commonwealth Govt. can make laws regarding stuff that goes on there. The problem occurs when the Commonwealth govt tries to legislate on this sort of stuff if the constitution gives the states authority.
That's what I remember from the law part of 'commerce' in school. If I'm wrong, correct me...
You honestly have no fucking idea. I'll set up my context before I go on. My dad works for the NSW department of housing - he's one of the top 3 guys there - one of the things he does is social policy. He's often talked with me about his job, and the social problem that is affecting many aboriginal people. Alcohol is a major cause of many of their problems. The way Aboriginal physiology deals with alcohol is different to our bodies. They are more intolerant to it. Also, there are many many times more aboriginals out of work, out of housing, with family troubles, without proper education than compared to the rest of Australia. Simply, there is more chance for alcohol abuse.Sleepy8686 wrote:
IMO alchohol and porn dont make pedophiles you either are or you arent and really how much porn do you think these people really have access to??????????? Hell if those two attributed to being a pedophile imagine how much worse it would be in the US and worldwide =P
but seriously thats all bs
By removing the alcohol, the PM will be able to cut out one of the major catalysts of abuse.
So NO, this ain't 'all BS'.
I have to disagree. Banning booze will just cause different crime. People will do whatever it takes to get the alcohol.mcminty wrote:
By removing the alcohol, the PM will be able to cut out one of the major catalysts of abuse.
And in the end you will still have abuse and crime to get booze.
Last edited by usmarine2005 (2007-06-22 20:53:41)
I don't think you understand the situation, usmarine. These are isolated communities, it's not like they can just break a shop window to get to alcohol.
I understand that. Do you really think they would not get their hands on the sauce?Bubbalo wrote:
I don't think you understand the situation, usmarine. These are isolated communities, it's not like they can just break a shop window to get to alcohol.
It is all BS, ever hear of BOOTLEGGERS? PROHIBITION? AL CAPONE? That shit will all happen in Aussiland if they ban alchohol. I'd bet money.
What, try to ferment gum leaves?usmarine2005 wrote:
I understand that. Do you really think they would not get their hands on the sauce?Bubbalo wrote:
I don't think you understand the situation, usmarine. These are isolated communities, it's not like they can just break a shop window to get to alcohol.
Just kidding, although they could make rice wine.
Al Capone? Speaking of which, a lawyer got shot in the CBD a few days ago...(I don't think he'll last too long in jail before getting stabbed)
Last edited by some_random_panda (2007-06-22 21:19:36)
yeah, Capone was a liquor gangster.
You dont seem to see the point here, these communities are a long way away from other cities/towns so its pretty easy to control what comes in and goes out. So Bone saw I will bet you alot of money that none of the things you stated will happen.
If you ban something, if people want it bad enough, a law isn't gonna stop anything. Where do you think bootleggers and the like make their moonshine? in a back alley of NYC? No, its out in the backwoods of some backwater Alabama hicktown with a population of 20. Isolated communities are a perfect spot for bootleggers to create their wares.
I convinced a Domino's pizza guy to deliver a shit load of pizzas to us and it was a 26 mile drive for him. He made a lot of money off that.Invaderzim wrote:
You dont seem to see the point here, these communities are a long way away from other cities/towns
Last edited by usmarine2005 (2007-06-22 21:23:05)
Its needed in the N.T, Without alchohol and sick pornos the Aborigines will have nothing to spend their free money on except food for their kids. Its about time the government made sure that the welfare money goes towards what its meant to.