QFE!Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Ty wrote:
People held at Gitmo are rarely convicted. That fifteen year old was never poven to have killed anyone.
I would just like to register my disgust for the argument, "Well Al Quaeda tortures and kills captives worse than us."
So? For someone to be able to judge someone else one must do so with clean hands. The US government accusing Al Quaeda of torture would be more powerful if the US government didn't condone torture anyway. So what if Al Quaeda chop off heads? God knows what happens at Gitmo, whatever it is it seems harsh enough to get people to commit suicide. It may not be the primitive physical torture that the terrorists so excell in, but to get someone to kill themselves? It has to be a bit heavier than tickling them with feathers I'm sure.
Read Kmarion's posts in this thread:
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=75449&p=1
Kmarion has been ignored since day one, and it still amazes me. Whenever he shuts down a ludicrous argument, you guys just drop it completely and start a whole new thread on it like his points were never acknowledged.
The selective criticism is also mind-boggling. You guys conveniently ignore the atrocities of Al Qaeda so you can make a stretch to criticize the US. Don't deny it, many your "posting careers" are exclusively posts criticizing US policy...all day, every day.
Mod: inappropriate comment removedCerpin_Taxt wrote:
Now we've got someone saying that a user posting on a forum makes him want to move to Australia? Are you guys for real?
While you did report this post C_Taxt, I do sort of agree with Cougar. What's so wrong about a post that makes him want to move to Australia?Cougar wrote:
Mod: inappropriate comment removed.Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Now we've got someone saying that a user posting on a forum makes him want to move to Australia? Are you guys for real?
Cougar, I suggest you remove the second last word...
Mcminty.
mcminty wrote:
While you did report this post C_Taxt, I do sort of agree with Cougar. What's so wrong about a post that makes him want to move to Australia?Cougar wrote:
Mod: inappropriate comment removed.Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Now we've got someone saying that a user posting on a forum makes him want to move to Australia? Are you guys for real?
Cougar, I suggest you remove the second last word...
Mcminty.
I am not trying to bad-mouth Australia. I am pointing out the ridiculousness of making major life decisions in anger based on what some kid on a forum says.
Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt (2007-06-05 04:35:24)
The problem is that he has good reason to believe fadedsteve's views ARE representive of the wider community and he may no longer want to live in a country so steeped in ignorance.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Yes, but Cougar was using that hyperbole to emphasise what is ridiculously 'wrong with this country".
EDIT: And what Spark said.
... back to the topic at hand.
Mcminty.
EDIT: And what Spark said.
... back to the topic at hand.
Mcminty.
No it's is inability to read a sentence that pisses me off.mcminty wrote:
While you did report this post C_Taxt, I do sort of agree with Cougar. What's so wrong about a post that makes him want to move to Australia?Cougar wrote:
Mod: inappropriate comment removed.Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Now we've got someone saying that a user posting on a forum makes him want to move to Australia? Are you guys for real?
Cougar, I suggest you remove the second last word...
Mcminty.
I said that fadedsteve sums up all of the things that are wrong with America, why the world hates us and why I want to move to Australia, every time he speaks, meaning that it's morons like him that run the country, run the media, and make me want to run out before the consequences of their stupidity affect me and my family directly. Not to mention the place is starting to turn into a cess pool of crime, inflation, corruption and overall lack of intelligence as so gracefully displayed by Fancy's......I'm sorry Cerpin Taxts inability to read and comprehend the meaning of a single sentence.
Kmarion's description sounds like 'the official line', which is economical with the truth taking reports given by those incarcerated there into account.Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Read Kmarion's posts in this thread:
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=75449&p=1
Kmarion has been ignored since day one, and it still amazes me. Whenever he shuts down a ludicrous argument, you guys just drop it completely and start a whole new thread on it like his points were never acknowledged.
The selective criticism is also mind-boggling. You guys conveniently ignore the atrocities of Al Qaeda so you can make a stretch to criticize the US (read Kmarion's posts so you can understand this). Don't deny it, many of your "posting careers" are exclusively posts criticizing US policy...all day, every day.
Now we've got someone saying that a user posting on a forum makes him want to move to Australia? Are you guys for real?
Let me elaborate:
FBI agents and Red Cross inspectors, numerous released detainees (including those with no known connection to terrorism), among others have alleged acts of torture, including sleep deprivation, the use of so-called truth drugs, beatings, locking in confined and cold cellsand being forced to maintain uncomfortable postures (stress positions). Prisoners are held in small mesh-sided cells, and lights are kept on day and night.
Proud of yourself, being compared to Stalin's USSR? If I was in there I wouldn't give a fuck if you gave me an exercise bike, a Q'uran and a fucking square meal. I'd want justice - charge me or fucking release me! INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.Amnesty International wrote:
Guantánamo has become the gulag of our times, entrenching the notion that people can be detained without any recourse to the law. If Guantánamo evokes images of Soviet repression, "ghost detainees" – or the incommunicado detention of unregistered detainees - bring back the practice of "disappearances" so popular with Latin American dictators in the past. According to U.S. official sources there could be over 100 ghost detainees held by the U.S.
I don't know how you do things in the States but over here we don't throw juveniles in the prison willy-nilly. We hold them in juvenile detention centres to try and rehabilitate them. Tell me right now that you endorse the imprisonment without charge or trial of minors - go on, state it right here for all to see.
It's always the same tired irrelevant lines:
"But they chop our heads off..."
"But Gitmo is great, they get exercise time, yadda, yadda, yadda..."
We expect more from America than we do of those Al Qaeda animals. If you're content becoming the bad guys too then see ya later.
Wake the fuck up!!!!!! You are making yourselves look like shit because you ARE ACTING IMMORALLY here. What you are doing is WRONG, plain and simple. Is it that fucking hard to understand????? What on earth happened to the America of Washington and Lincoln. Jeesssusss christ.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-06-05 04:39:48)
How come the burden of proof always falls on the ones speaking out against Guantanamo? Oh that's right, 'cause we're all just America-bashing. Can we not disagree with state-sponsored torture without getting labeled America-bashers or being disregarded because we disagree with the US?Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Read Kmarion's posts in this thread:
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=75449&p=1
Kmarion has been ignored since day one, and it still amazes me. Whenever he shuts down a ludicrous argument, you guys just drop it completely and start a whole new thread on it like his points were never acknowledged.
The selective criticism is also mind-boggling. You guys conveniently ignore the atrocities of Al Qaeda so you can make a stretch to criticize the US. Don't deny it, many your "posting careers" are exclusively posts criticizing US policy...all day, every day.
I have read nothing to dispute what Kmarion wrote in his first post so in won't go bout trying to dispute them myself. I will say though that Kmarion's first post seems incredibly one-sided. Episodes of torture and lack of human rights have been made public, the few detainees who have been released have spoken out against it.
They are given basic human necessities, that would be self evident. I'm not saying Guantanamo is a Holocause-era concentration camp, as far as Hellholes go it's not that bad. The are given food, freedom of religion even a chance to communicate with their lawyer - if they have one as one is not supplied to them.
They are treated as prisoners which is all one should expect at a prison camp.
However, there have been episodes of torture, there have been blatant disregard for law regarding right to a fair trial, - detainees if they are lucky enough to have an attourney are even luckier if they get a trial anyway. Until then they are held indefinatly without charge through a series of loopholes. Hell that alone can be enough to get someone to commit suicide. Sure Guantanamo is run like a prison, but most of the detainees are not convicted criminals.
I am trying not to bash America, it's just that it's the only first world western country right now who condones state-sponsored torture and holding people without conviction. If it wasn't America doing it believe me I would still speak out against it.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
NOT committed deplorable acts that defy not only the country's own moral standards, but any respect for human life?fadedsteve wrote:
We ARE the good guys, and we act like it everyday! What has Ireland done for the world recently?? Hmm??
Winner!RedTwizzler wrote:
NOT committed deplorable acts that defy not only the country's own moral standards, but any respect for human life?fadedsteve wrote:
We ARE the good guys, and we act like it everyday! What has Ireland done for the world recently?? Hmm??
OK.
So... back to my original question.
Now that the whole central premise of Gitmo is in tatters, what's the plan from those who support Gitmo?
So... back to my original question.
Now that the whole central premise of Gitmo is in tatters, what's the plan from those who support Gitmo?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
You will have to wait until fadedsteve wakes up for that answer.Spark wrote:
OK.
So... back to my original question.
Now that the whole central premise of Gitmo is in tatters, what's the plan from those who support Gitmo?
So what about all the other conservatives here? ATG? lowing, usmarine?
Last edited by Spark (2007-06-05 04:53:17)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
I love you, Cougar.Cougar wrote:
You pretty much sum up everything that is wrong with this country, why the world hates us and why I want to move to Australia, every time you speak.fadedsteve wrote:
That 15 year old killed a US soldier. . . .
He should get whatever is coming to him. . . .
oh no, the prisoners have to listen to Red Hot Chilli Peppers, get sleep deprived, long hours of interrogation. . . . fuckin' breaks my heart *sarcasm*
I trust you have seen the al-Qaeda booklet on the treatment of prisoners. . . . You fuckin' liberals just dont see the big picture. . . . Just flat out dont get it!!
We ARE the good guys, and we act like it everyday! What has Ireland done for the world recently?? Hmm??
I aim to please.
You're welcome to move to Australia by the way...Cougar wrote:
I aim to please.
Opinionated... Check!
Abrasive... Check!
An all around asshole.... Check!
All you have to do is prove you can drink a shitload of alcohol and shout about sport and you're in!
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
well, isn't that great ? So the same people who decided to put you in chains and fly you half around the world are going to decide what your status is, without you having access to a lawyer or even being allowed to see all evidence against you ?International Herald Tribune wrote:
...The combatant status panels have been among the most criticized features of the Pentagon's legal system here, in part because detainees are not permitted lawyers and are not allowed to see much of the evidence against them...
And you want to file war crime charges against these people ? War Crimes ? Like the ones committed on the balcans or in africa ? OBL's driver and a firfteen-year-old ? War criminals ? I am sorry, but that is absurd.
The US wasn't even willing to put their own soldiers under the jurisdiction of the international war crimes tribunal in The Hague, and now you want to try truck drivers as war criminals ?
I have always believed that only those in the military should be tried before a military court. Civilians should be tried before a cilvilian criminal court, in the nation where the crimes supposedly happened.
Civilians before a military court, I thought was a thing of the past, in darker, more fascist times.
habeas corpus ? forget it....
innocent until proven guilty ? who needs that ?
I fear America will sacrifice its principles in the War on Terror and for what ?
Schuss, your use of the word facist in your last post is incorrect, as have my uses of the word in the past. Just being a picky sod but yeah.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Plan?Spark wrote:
OK.
So... back to my original question.
Now that the whole central premise of Gitmo is in tatters, what's the plan from those who support Gitmo?
It's a bit like the Iraq plan. Non-existent.
Gitmo can never and will never be justifiable, it represents the most pitiful aspects of the Neo-Con movement in the US. The paranoia, the arrogance and the lack of respect for human rights. It is a disgrace that it even exists and it is right that the US be held up as a pariah for commiting officially state sanctioned acts like those widely reported to occur at Gitmo.
it is ? How so ? I was under the impression that civilians tried before military courts under dubious legal circumstances was a classic feature of fascist regimes ?Flecco wrote:
Schuss, your use of the word facist in your last post is incorrect, as have my uses of the word in the past. Just being a picky sod but yeah.
Then again, as the definition of fascism is a matter of great debate even among well-established historians,
I'll not insist. Feel free to suggest a term that fits better, and I'll gladly put it in.
Thats the thing, the U.S. has gotten to the point where it doesn't need justification, for anything. When your the big bad wolf of the forest, suddenly the rules no longer apply to you. That is until all the smaller animals pack up against you.Bertster7 wrote:
Plan?Spark wrote:
OK.
So... back to my original question.
Now that the whole central premise of Gitmo is in tatters, what's the plan from those who support Gitmo?
It's a bit like the Iraq plan. Non-existent.
Gitmo can never and will never be justifiable, it represents the most pitiful aspects of the Neo-Con movement in the US. The paranoia, the arrogance and the lack of respect for human rights. It is a disgrace that it even exists and it is right that the US be held up as a pariah for commiting officially state sanctioned acts like those widely reported to occur at Gitmo.
I can't drink alot of alcohol, but I drink alot of Mountain Dew and scream at my monitor alot, which if I drink enough I could technically get a headache, which is the same as being drunk as far as I'm concerned and then scream at a CAL match (cyber athletes) which is good enough.Flecco wrote:
You're welcome to move to Australia by the way...Cougar wrote:
I aim to please.
Opinionated... Check!
Abrasive... Check!
An all around asshole.... Check!
All you have to do is prove you can drink a shitload of alcohol and shout about sport and you're in!
The plan however, is once my fiancee has her degrees she wants to teach at some college (forget the name) in Australia. Plus, both of us are ready to get out of this shithole.
Well umm they allow Guinness to be exportedfadedsteve wrote:
That 15 year old killed a US soldier. . . .
He should get whatever is coming to him. . . .
oh no, the prisoners have to listen to Red Hot Chilli Peppers, get sleep deprived, long hours of interrogation. . . . fuckin' breaks my heart *sarcasm*
I trust you have seen the al-Qaeda booklet on the treatment of prisoners. . . . You fuckin' liberals just dont see the big picture. . . . Just flat out dont get it!!
We ARE the good guys, and we act like it everyday! What has Ireland done for the world recently?? Hmm??
I love me some Guinness
Yes, i agree let me call the President and tell him he needs to shut GITMO down.CameronPoe wrote:
Kmarion's description sounds like 'the official line', which is economical with the truth taking reports given by those incarcerated there into account.Cerpin_Taxt wrote:
Read Kmarion's posts in this thread:
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=75449&p=1
Kmarion has been ignored since day one, and it still amazes me. Whenever he shuts down a ludicrous argument, you guys just drop it completely and start a whole new thread on it like his points were never acknowledged.
The selective criticism is also mind-boggling. You guys conveniently ignore the atrocities of Al Qaeda so you can make a stretch to criticize the US (read Kmarion's posts so you can understand this). Don't deny it, many of your "posting careers" are exclusively posts criticizing US policy...all day, every day.
Now we've got someone saying that a user posting on a forum makes him want to move to Australia? Are you guys for real?
Let me elaborate:
FBI agents and Red Cross inspectors, numerous released detainees (including those with no known connection to terrorism), among others have alleged acts of torture, including sleep deprivation, the use of so-called truth drugs, beatings, locking in confined and cold cellsand being forced to maintain uncomfortable postures (stress positions). Prisoners are held in small mesh-sided cells, and lights are kept on day and night.Proud of yourself, being compared to Stalin's USSR? If I was in there I wouldn't give a fuck if you gave me an exercise bike, a Q'uran and a fucking square meal. I'd want justice - charge me or fucking release me! INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.Amnesty International wrote:
Guantánamo has become the gulag of our times, entrenching the notion that people can be detained without any recourse to the law. If Guantánamo evokes images of Soviet repression, "ghost detainees" – or the incommunicado detention of unregistered detainees - bring back the practice of "disappearances" so popular with Latin American dictators in the past. According to U.S. official sources there could be over 100 ghost detainees held by the U.S.
I don't know how you do things in the States but over here we don't throw juveniles in the prison willy-nilly. We hold them in juvenile detention centres to try and rehabilitate them. Tell me right now that you endorse the imprisonment without charge or trial of minors - go on, state it right here for all to see.
It's always the same tired irrelevant lines:
"But they chop our heads off..."
"But Gitmo is great, they get exercise time, yadda, yadda, yadda..."
We expect more from America than we do of those Al Qaeda animals. If you're content becoming the bad guys too then see ya later.
Wake the fuck up!!!!!! You are making yourselves look like shit because you ARE ACTING IMMORALLY here. What you are doing is WRONG, plain and simple. Is it that fucking hard to understand????? What on earth happened to the America of Washington and Lincoln. Jeesssusss christ.
Sure buddy, I'm not the policy maker and you are not either, we can cry about it online but in the end who is the president going to listen too? Appearently the angel on his shoulder was sucker punched and is in GITMO as well, cause he sure as hell aint listening to congress or anyone else.....
Where does shit like this come from? Who said that? Our President said we will hunt them down and kill or capture terrorists. Who the fuck said anything about being the good guys?CameronPoe wrote:
"If you want to be the good guys, you gotta start acting like the good guys."