pj666
Member
+16|6390|Sydney, Australia
As someone said, private military companies will never say they won't employ gays because they will get sued for discrimination. However, these companies only tend to employ ex-military anyway, so someone's comment early on about "choosing" between the government and private sector is a fiction.  You go to the military, get trained, then go into private sector. How many merc companies would employ you if you just turned up out of school and said "I wanna be a security contractor"? They'd say, go enlist and see you in 5 years when you have some experience.

Plus the contractors only tend to take ex special forces or specialist troops, or pretty experienced NCOs from regular military. They don't want the dumb grunts or maniacs. They want the hard core professionals with the right attitude. Generally, without engaging in generalisations, those people aren't going to tend to be gay (or open about it).

Having said that, the issue of banning gays from the military tends to be tied to several issues, some of which are now redundant:

1. Gays previously were at times illegal, so it was an explicit policy.
2. There was a fear that male gays in a all male environment would go gah gah like a kid in a candy store.  This indulges in the gay stereotyping. Not all gays find all men attractive. Just like not all men find all women attractive and vice versa. This assumes that gays have no self control, which also touches on the old chestnut of fearing all gay men are p@edophiles in waiting, which is also silly.
3. The disruption fear, that straight soldiers would be disturbed at having gays in the showers, dorms, etc with them. See 2 above, although I can understand this. But at the end of the day that is reinforcing bias. Do you take blacks or Jews out of a unit because one or some of the soldiers are racist ...?
4. Fears that a soldier being gay would be used against them via blackmail, including by foreign powers. This ignored the fact that if it was OK,then the blackmail risk would disappear. This problem still arises because of the current US policy.

Overall, the disruption fear is probably the most valid, but is a bit of a damning indictment on the rest of the society/army. I note some comments above that some haven't had problems. I'm sure there are also some that have.

Keep in mind the UK and Netherlands are a lot more liberal on some of these issues than the US. However, I wouldn't be so sure the UK hasn't had some problems.

Put it this way, if the soldier is gay and as good and professional as the next straight person, what's the problem? If they are a raging queer Priscilla Queen of the Desert type who is cracking on to every male CO and being disruptive to discipline, then you have a problem.  But the same as any gigolo who sleeps with the CO's wife, or disruptive type generally ("Private Joker!!! You wash up!!!! ...."). You punt them all for the same reason, not one because one's gay and the others for some other reasons.

Personally I am slightly uncomfortable about gays some times, but at the end of the day they have the right to live their lives as they choose (or were born to do). Do unto others, etc etc.

Personally I have more problem with females in front line military units. This PC insistence on women being equal and therefore entitled to fight on the front line is insane, and ignores the realities of war. Most women are physically weaker as a male of the same build, in a job where it is necessary to be strong. I wonder how many female SAW gunners there are ...? Plus there is always the threat of r@pe. Definitely when you are fighting wars against countries or forces that are less "liberal" than Western countries with women in their forces, you have the risk they won't be fighting according the gentleman's rules.

But that's probably a topic for another thread.
millhous
Member
+39|6661|OREEGONE, USA
Its the stereotypical flamboyant homosexual male that I think the military feels uncomfortable with.  While i'm sure that gays wouldn't act like that in an organization that requires strict discipline, its still an issue that the military won't tackle.  You can still be gay in the military, just don't tell anyone.  Thats as accepting the military is going to get for a LONG time.
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6671
It's too distracting knowing the guy next to you might try to jump your butthole at any moment.
LtMarcus
Member
+10|6611|Meise, Belgium

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

It's too distracting knowing the guy next to you might try to jump your butthole at any moment.
sure...just like every female you see tries to get you laid..
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6671

LtMarcus wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

It's too distracting knowing the guy next to you might try to jump your butthole at any moment.
sure...just like every female you see tries to get you laid..
speak for yourself
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6586
If you have to drug them, they aren't trying.
Gillenator
Evils Bammed Sex Machine
+129|6419|Evilsville

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

It's too distracting knowing the guy next to you might try to jump your butthole at any moment.
Yeah right, as if a gay soldier in a war is going to be more interested in 'shooting' you in your asshole instead of shooting at the enemy.
I don't see the problem at all with gay people in the army.

That being said, then almost every woman in the military must be thinking the same thing as you, regarding all those men around her.
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6511|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)
If you would have asked me if it was ok to have gays in the Military back in 1998 when I first joined, I would have said HELL NO. Now, who cares. If you watch an infantry platoon for any amount of time you would swear they are all gay, racist and/or totally crazy.

To Ajax, that is one of the idiotic post ever made, I want my 2 seconds of life back

Edit: A gay will stop a bullet just as well as a straight, and will be just as dead

Last edited by SgtHeihn (2007-06-05 02:45:32)

B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6865|Cologne, Germany

SgtHeihn wrote:

A gay will stop a bullet just as well as a straight, and will be just as dead
best quote so far today.

I think since gay soldiers are already serving in the US armed forces, even if they don't serve openly, it wouldn't be a problem to "officially" allow gays to serve. Wouldn't make a difference, would it ?

If you are so unsecure in your sexuality that you cannot stand the thought of a gay soldier having your back
in a foxhole, then you shouldn't be allowed access to weapons of war anyway.
CannonFodder11b
Purple Heart Recipient
+73|6714|Fort Lewis WA
Bubbalo
answer 1) No, and yes
answer 2) ? i dunno dude, i know of a few blackwater cats but I have yet to meet a woman working for BW.
CannonFodder11b
Purple Heart Recipient
+73|6714|Fort Lewis WA

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

LtMarcus wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

It's too distracting knowing the guy next to you might try to jump your butthole at any moment.
sure...just like every female you see tries to get you laid..
speak for yourself
Appearently LT Marcus has never been to Korea
And yes in Eatawon every female is trying to get you laid. In TDC you cannot even step into the Stars club before you're package is out of your pants getting a little tug job.

Edit: Man I miss Korea

Last edited by CannonFodder11b (2007-06-05 04:28:01)

Schwarzelungen
drunklenglungen
+133|6320|Bloomington Indiana

Jibbles wrote:

I am totally against homosexuality, purely because it is just not natural or right. I am joining the military next year, and personally, I don't want gays anywhere near me. I think it would have a negative effect on morale, and just end up not being for the better
as someone else here already said "you watch an infantry platoon long enough youre bound to think they are all gay, racist, or completely crazy"

sorry if i didnt cite you....2 pots of coffee and law papers do that.

jibbles...if youre that against homosexuals...have fun in the military *not saying they are gay, just saying that having seen my friends who come back from iraq/afghanistan with their service buddies have a greater and closer *open?* bond than anyone ive ever seen before*
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6469|The Land of Scott Walker
Here's my question: Why tell the military you're gay?  What's the point?  I wouldn't feel the need to proclaim my sexual preference to the men serving alongside me.  I've never understood the need to broadcast it, in the military or otherwise.
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6760|Salt Lake City

As long as their have been militaries there have been gays serving in them.  To those of you that have served, chances are that during your time you served with one or more gay servicemen.
CoronadoSEAL
pics or it didn't happen
+207|6542|USA
first of all, there have been some very good points so far!

Stingray24 wrote:

Here's my question: Why tell the military you're gay?  What's the point?  I wouldn't feel the need to proclaim my sexual preference to the men serving alongside me.  I've never understood the need to broadcast it, in the military or otherwise.
why tell the military? i don't know. 
why tell your unit? to promote unit integrity. 

golgoj4 wrote:

CoronadoSEAL wrote:

it isn't just the gay person.  the attitudes of people working with the gay person might be compromised due to their decreased comfort levels in such a unit.  the gay person might be doing his job well, but he might have compromised the integrity of the group. 

one step forward; two steps backward.
so, what happened to the discipline? I didn't realize you got to blame your (and I don't mean u personally  coronado) lack of military bearing on the next guy. I suppose you could say there is an element of unit cohesion that is required, but I remember people putting their differences aside to get the job done from my time in. Just seem a little primadonna-ish.
you make a good point here, and i made my first statement rather general because, tbh, i didn't know where exactly i stood/stand.

i guess i would be okay with it because i would like to think i would put all aside to accomplish a mission, as you said.  it won't help (1) the integrity/cohesion of the unit or (2) the possibility of a successful mission to have and hard feelings toward another comrade. 
i would rather not deal with it, but who am i to tell some seasoned vet that has reached a summit that makes me queasy that i don't approve of his lifestyle?  i adjust/adapt.

Last edited by CoronadoSEAL (2007-06-05 08:57:33)

dc_involved
Member
+13|6555
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np6_b-72H3E

Last edited by dc_involved (2007-06-05 10:09:15)

SFCCDailey
Banned
+106|6740|USA
Hey didn't that guy from "Right Said Fred" join the British  Army?
HunterOfSkulls
Rated EC-10
+246|6304

Stingray24 wrote:

Here's my question: Why tell the military you're gay?  What's the point?  I wouldn't feel the need to proclaim my sexual preference to the men serving alongside me.  I've never understood the need to broadcast it, in the military or otherwise.
They don't "broadcast" in the military. They can't. Remember DADT? If they're open, they get discharged from service, period, end of statement. That's the "Don't tell" part. Unfortunately the "Don't ask" part is a complete failure because it hasn't stopped the brass from digging into the personal lives of anyone they even suspect to be homosexual. One more of Clinton's failed phony progressive acts.

I realize it's probably a bit of assumption here. Lemme see if I can break this down for y'all. Not every gay guy is Jack from Will and Grace or frickin Liberace. Not every lesbian wears flannel and has a mullet. Not every gay man looks at every single guy around them and thinks "Mmmm, I'd like to break off a piece o' that!". Not every lesbian hates men. Sure, there are some that conform to the stereotypes but I honestly have to wonder if the majority of the ones that do just act like that because that's what society tells them they're supposed to act like.

I'm also fairly certain that this is what our society wants. That being, encouraging homosexuals towards behavior modes that make them obvious and visible, likely part of our society's fixation on judging people based on appearance or other externally obvious characteristics. We're only a few decades out from the days when homosexuals were considered to be mentally disordered; no doubt some people still consider them so even if mental health professionals say otherwise. Doubtless those people find the archetype of the mincing queer or the butch dyke comforting because it makes them visible. Anyone not conforming to those behaviors, well shit they could be anyone. They could be doctors, teachers, any person in authority or professional capacity and that idea scares the absolute purple shit out of some people. And it pisses them off too; how are you gonna keep those underclasses in their place if you can't tell who they are just by looking at them?

Personally, I don't think homosexuals should serve in the US military. Why? Simple. Any country that refuses to acknowledge them as anything but second-class citizens and allows religious and social conservatives with axes to grind to make law and policy that infringe upon their liberty and happiness does not deserve their service or their sacrifice.
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6725
It never was an issue to begin with. Statistically, 1 in about 20-30 (depending on which study you believe) people in the military are already gay, and I have never heard of it being an issue. It boggles my mind that with so many problems on this planet people choose to be upset about gay people.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6580
Are you guys seriously telling me that one of the most advanced nations in the entire world still practice discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in a civil institution like the army? What about the western principle of non-discrimination on the basis of colour, creed, sexuality or gender?

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-06-05 13:23:41)

usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6786

CameronPoe wrote:

What about the western principle of non-discrimination on the basis of colour, creed, sexuality or gender?
In the Marines, no women are allowed in the grunts.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6247|Escea

Turquoise wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Will gay guys get their own showers?
*shrugs*  I have no idea...  Maybe we should see how other countries like the Netherlands, Canada, and the U.K. handle this.  They've allowed gays for quite some time.
I'm pretty sure they get beaten up by fellow soldiers in the British army, bullying was a problem not that long ago, don't know if it still is.
CruZ4dR
Cereal Killer
+145|6680|The View From The Afternoon
Gays tend to be whimps. And whimps can't fire guns.
dc_involved
Member
+13|6555

CruZ4dR wrote:

Gays tend to be whimps. And whimps can't fire guns.
Surely this is not a serious remark.
jord
Member
+2,382|6702|The North, beyond the wall.

M.O.A.B wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Will gay guys get their own showers?
*shrugs*  I have no idea...  Maybe we should see how other countries like the Netherlands, Canada, and the U.K. handle this.  They've allowed gays for quite some time.
I'm pretty sure they get beaten up by fellow soldiers in the British army, bullying was a problem not that long ago, don't know if it still is.
Actually it's the other way round as well. There's a serious problem at several British army training camps were higher ranking homosexuals have made new recruits strip, and then in some cases, raped them.

It was on the news that they're improving though.

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