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Topic closed

Poll

Illegal Immigration Issue is a hoax

True21%21% - 25
False78%78% - 90
Total: 115
2007-05-09 11:19:20
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6759|Texas - Bigger than France
Just the highlights.

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

1. VA has overstayed visas along with the other 49 states.

Pug wrote:

But my point is the % of overstayed visas vs non-visas is vastly different in border states.  Just an annoying pedantic thing, ignore now.
3. The amount an illegal worker is paid is equal to that of an employer of the illegal going out and shopping at target or wal-mart. They aren't making the money Americans are making. Even if they paid thier share (1/3rd income) the overall impact isn't as significant as what your taxes or my taxes impact. You and I still have rights they do not have.

Pug wrote:

They are in competition for minimum wage or jobs no one wants to do.  Components of wages = base + employee paid payroll tax + employer paid payroll tax.  So if you are legal at you make $10/hr (and for rounding) pay 8% payroll tax, your take home is $10.00 - $0.80 = $9.20/hr.  The total cost to the employer is $10.80.  So the company can pay $10.50/hr to an illegal, and their take home is $0.70 more per hour, and the company saves $0.30 per person hour.  Not much if its one dude.  But there are a few factory floors filled with them.  If the company can save $12 per worker per week.

In turn, you come home with $9.80 x 40 hours = $392/wk x 52 = $20,384 less 15% fed tax bracket = $17,326 take home per year.  The illegal gets $10.50 x 40 = $420/wk less no tax = $21,840.  There's a cap to it of course, but if they ever get that far, they become naturalized citizens.  Until then, low income folks get to compete for jobs, when companies can take the risk and save money.

As far as their rights go, there's the danger of being caught.  But they have equal rights in most of the infrastructure areas I've been discussing.  The neat thing is that there's immigrant rallies wanting rights.  So I think they actually want to pay as well...

So the problem is basically either: shut the immigrant pipeline down or have them support the society they have chosen to join.  It's a flawed system.
5. I agree. You can be pissed about that. If said illegals are using the systems you describe. At the same time, Illegals aren't taking advantage of the systems you are saying they are. Medicare Medicade is fucked due to political policies. THe emergency room law is the heart of illegals "taking advantage". If you want to go into the criminal sector, feel free to post how illegals are draining our judicial system and Ill gladly rebut.

Pug wrote:

By definition all illegals are breaking the law, but if you're talking about theft & violence - not my area of expertise - however there is a trial going on in town where a friend of mine was raped by an illegal when he broke into her house.  My thought on the criminal activity is more people = more crime.
6. There are a ton of uninsured drivers and the same effect you describe happens whether the person is legal or illegal.

Pug wrote:

True, but with illegals, one of the rights they lack is a driver's license and insurance.  Others may choose to break the law.  Illegals have no choice if they want to drive.
7. The dollar figure of whats its costing you, is that your chunk of taxes to the feds each pay check?

Pug wrote:

No, its limited to local, payroll, and state taxes (indirect in Texas - no state income tax).  The amount is a guess about how much more I pay.  The actual total (no income tax) I pay is about $33k per year.
Don't believe everything you here. And when you figure out how to identify an illegal alien, let me know.

Pug wrote:

It's actually easy.  Go to a factory or job site.  Follow the foreman around on Friday and see who's getting paid cash - cash = no payroll tax = no trail for the gov't to follow unless they show on payday.  I've had to fire clients when I've seen it happen.
2007-05-09 11:47:00
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6879|USA
Im not quoting the whole thing up there. Im no good at "pyramid" style quote rebuttals. So please bear with me on the response.

1. Your %  remark of overstayed visas per state, is admitting your big problem flat out is the guys crossing the border. So where some state may have a bigger issue with overstayed visas, Texas, Arizona etc big issues is Mexicans correct?

3. Im going to rebut this salary/tax point with this. If the illegal immigrants were subject to payroll taxes, what do you expect the difference to be in your daily life? Im willing to bet, I would actually place money in your hand, that you would see no significant difference in your daily life in texas. The FACT of this matter is, you have no clue what your taxes go to. Wether it be the Bush NEOCON kill poor and middle class people in a war agenda. Or the Find slick Willy a new intern agenda. Your led to believe the 6 million illegal workers here, are the source of all of your woes in America. The economy, unemployment (Which is one of the lowest in the world), etc. I support busting "whole factories" as you put it of illegal workers as that is the law.

5. So regardless of illegal immigration, the more people that come to America, the more crime we will have? So we should stop immigration to the states all together?

6. It pains me that it is actually easier for an illegal immigrant to get a state issued id and drivers liscense than it is for me to renew my liscence. But your argument just suggest that illegals don't have the right to drive. I agree. But your also implying, any illegal who drives, hits people, kills them, and maims them everytime thier behind the wheel. Which is just untrue. Sure it'll piss you off if it happens to you. But uninsured illegals driving, isn't on my priority list either. How many people with more than 1 DUI are citizens and drive daily taking the risk? There are many illegal American drivers. Lets place the blame of high incurance rates soley on illegal Mexicans. I don't buy it.

7. Your telling me you pay 33,000 dollars extra to the state a year because of illegal immigrants? Not counting income tax? Explain please. Is there a special "illegal immigrant support tax" just in the state of texas?

8. Extablished factories with illegal workers should be taken care of properly. Im willing to bet those factories have bigger concerns internally if thier whole workforce is illegals. I would go so far as to state those factories probably don't follow OSHA regulations or ISO standards or environmental standards. You know, the shit that American workers would call them on if they were n there. I agree the full factories of illegals is bad for the illegals as they are probably working in an unsafe unregulated environment. But they don't give a shit because they'll be able to buy food that night for dinner. As far as jobsites, been there done that. What I see is liscenced tradeskill americans inside hooking up AC units, pipefitting fire systems, intalling plumbing, hanging steel beems and welding them...

Outside I see illegals with wheelbarrows and shovels digging the 500ft long 4 ft deep trench with a pick and a shovel.

I'd also like your opinion on point #4 a few posts ago. Comparing illegal workers not paying income to drug dealers not paying income.

Last edited by Mason4Assassin444 (2007-05-09 11:50:25)

2007-05-09 11:57:06
weamo8
Member
+50|6659|USA

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

True or False

Illegal Immigration is a bullshit issue that has little effect on the country as a whole.
False

According to Gorge Borgas (a renowned economist from Harvard) illegal immigrants greatly exacerbate the widening divide between the rich and the poor, steal millions (perhaps billions) of dollars directly from our economy and send them out of the country, and tax our health and law enforcement in dollar amounts we cant quite comprehend.

Many economists consider the size and income of the middle class to be the most important metric of a health economy.  Illegal immigration is killing our middle class.

I would pay a few more bucks for strawberries to alleviate these other problems.
2007-05-09 12:00:44
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6849|949

weamo8 wrote:

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

True or False

Illegal Immigration is a bullshit issue that has little effect on the country as a whole.
False

According to Gorge Borgas (a renowned economist from Harvard) illegal immigrants greatly exacerbate the widening divide between the rich and the poor, steal millions (perhaps billions) of dollars directly from our economy and send them out of the country, and tax our health and law enforcement in dollar amounts we cant quite comprehend.

Many economists consider the size and income of the middle class to be the most important metric of a health economy.  Illegal immigration is killing our middle class.

I would pay a few more bucks for strawberries to alleviate these other problems.
Everything you just listed can be said about Multinational corporations except for taxing healthcare and law enforcement (they can't possibly tax law enforcement because they don't do anything about it).

But hey, keep on shouting about aliens running around in the desert.
2007-05-09 12:05:56
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6879|USA

weamo8 wrote:

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

True or False

Illegal Immigration is a bullshit issue that has little effect on the country as a whole.
False

According to Gorge Borgas (a renowned economist from Harvard) illegal immigrants greatly exacerbate the widening divide between the rich and the poor, steal millions (perhaps billions) of dollars directly from our economy and send them out of the country, and tax our health and law enforcement in dollar amounts we cant quite comprehend.

Many economists consider the size and income of the middle class to be the most important metric of a health economy.  Illegal immigration is killing our middle class.

I would pay a few more bucks for strawberries to alleviate these other problems.
So illegal mexicans are widening the gap between rich and poor. Thats horseshit. Government policies have widened that gap, most endorsed by ol GW himself. Please, post the Harvard guys report. Id love to pick it apart.

I really want someone to throw me bone with the "illegals tax the judicial system/law enforcement argument." Someone explain thier view. Because it ludicrous.

I addressed the healthcare fiasco a few posts ago.
2007-05-09 12:10:44
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6860
this thread is a breath of fresh air.
2007-05-09 12:18:04
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6759|Texas - Bigger than France
1. Hey, this was you posting a poll that it's BS, telling everyone that overstated visas are the only problems, that it's not a problem.  I explained to you that its a regional problem.  My issues are: stop them from coming or if you can't, then have them contribute to the social programs/infrastructure.

3. The difference in my life would mean that more money would be available locally to fix the streets, do better policing, pick up more trash, build a sports arena...whatever - you know, better fixtures around town = better standard of living.  And I do know where my taxes go - some of the city departments are my clients.

5. My comment was in response to your opinion that everyone who is against illegal immigration believes they are involved in criminal activity.  I believe that its got to do with something else.

6. When did I ever say they kill people daily?  And hey, you expanded the argument in your earlier post to include the erroneous fact that everyone conservative believes it's "Death Race 2000" every Cinco de Mayo.  I simply explained what happens IF you get hit.

7.  No refer to my earlier post.  $6-8k.  You're bitching about this not being a problem.  I'm telling you that in my town there is a large "off the books" population which is using the infrastructure.  If they were required to contribute to the kitty, perhaps our city would be better or perhaps I'd have more money in my pocket because I'd pay less.  For instance - maybe the city's 2% sales tax rate would be dropped.

8. OSHA standards don't apply to every factory.  ISO standards are optional.  And like I said before, the factory should be punished severely, not the worker.  But if the worker is reaping the rewards, why not have him help out with the other costs.
2007-05-09 12:20:49
Unique01
Member
+1|6422|Malta
Hi there. It is a very big problem to our country. Here in Malta, which is a very small island, the place is getting full of these illegal immigrants. I don't have anything against them, but after offering them a place to stay until their origin country is found, they decide to throw away all the fresh vegetables we give them, and break the beds to use the legs to hit the soldiers and police.

Conclusion: Illegal immigration is a problem if the immigrants are very egoist, stupid and violent people who come to the country to fuck our lyfstyle... Hope my point was made clear.
Peace to all
2007-05-09 12:25:31
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6759|Texas - Bigger than France

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

So illegal mexicans are widening the gap between rich and poor. Thats horseshit. Government policies have widened that gap, most endorsed by ol GW himself. Please, post the Harvard guys report. Id love to pick it apart.

I really want someone to throw me bone with the "illegals tax the judicial system/law enforcement argument." Someone explain thier view. Because it ludicrous.

I addressed the healthcare fiasco a few posts ago.
Illegals tax the judicial system/law enforcement by the fact that they are funded by public funds to which they do not contribute. 

So in a sense, as the population of illegals grows, the city's population grows, and so if the crime rate % remains constant, more crimes will be commited (not necessarily by illegals).  So then as the population grows the amount of police remains the same because the funding is relatively the same as before, which means the police patrols are less effective, which means the easier it is to commit a crime, which results in a higher crime rate.

And I do not see how you addressed the healthcare fiasco - unless you referring to the "grandma is fucked" comment.  If more people are going to get free care that shouldn't, doesn't that mean that healthcare cost will increase?  What funds that?
2007-05-09 12:26:51
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6860

Pug wrote:

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

So illegal mexicans are widening the gap between rich and poor. Thats horseshit. Government policies have widened that gap, most endorsed by ol GW himself. Please, post the Harvard guys report. Id love to pick it apart.

I really want someone to throw me bone with the "illegals tax the judicial system/law enforcement argument." Someone explain thier view. Because it ludicrous.

I addressed the healthcare fiasco a few posts ago.
Illegals tax the judicial system/law enforcement by the fact that they are funded by public funds to which they do not contribute. 

So in a sense, as the population of illegals grows, the city's population grows, and so if the crime rate % remains constant, more crimes will be commited (not necessarily by illegals).  So then as the population grows the amount of police remains the same because the funding is relatively the same as before, which means the police patrols are less effective, which means the easier it is to commit a crime, which results in a higher crime rate.

And I do not see how you addressed the healthcare fiasco - unless you referring to the "grandma is fucked" comment.  If more people are going to get free care that shouldn't, doesn't that mean that healthcare cost will increase?  What funds that?
but you say that as if the majority of crime is caused by illegals, which it isnt.  i would find that most criminals in general are tax our law enforcement and judicial systems
2007-05-09 12:35:46
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6759|Texas - Bigger than France

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

but you say that as if the majority of crime is caused by illegals, which it isnt.  i would find that most criminals in general are tax our law enforcement and judicial systems
Illustrated.

Try this way:
Current Pop:                             100,000
Current Police:                            15,000
Current Crime Rate:                         10%
Crimes (Pop x rate):                    10,000
Cops per capita (cops/pop):               15%   

Future Pop (100k + 10k illegals):  110,000
Future Police (unch):                      15,000
Future rate (unch):                              10%
Crimes:                                         11,000
Cops per capita:                                 13.6%

I'm assuming that the illegals have the same crime rate as the locals - 10%.  But increasing the illegal population does not increase the funding of the cops - so they are doing more work but have less coverage.

If cops per capita deter crime, then what do you think happens if the ratio is lowered?

Last edited by Pug (2007-05-09 12:37:48)

2007-05-09 12:47:41
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6879|USA

Pug wrote:

1. Hey, this was you posting a poll that it's BS, telling everyone that overstated visas are the only problems, that it's not a problem.  I explained to you that its a regional problem.  My issues are: stop them from coming or if you can't, then have them contribute to the social programs/infrastructure.

3. The difference in my life would mean that more money would be available locally to fix the streets, do better policing, pick up more trash, build a sports arena...whatever - you know, better fixtures around town = better standard of living.  And I do know where my taxes go - some of the city departments are my clients.

5. My comment was in response to your opinion that everyone who is against illegal immigration believes they are involved in criminal activity.  I believe that its got to do with something else.

6. When did I ever say they kill people daily?  And hey, you expanded the argument in your earlier post to include the erroneous fact that everyone conservative believes it's "Death Race 2000" every Cinco de Mayo.  I simply explained what happens IF you get hit.

7.  No refer to my earlier post.  $6-8k.  You're bitching about this not being a problem.  I'm telling you that in my town there is a large "off the books" population which is using the infrastructure.  If they were required to contribute to the kitty, perhaps our city would be better or perhaps I'd have more money in my pocket because I'd pay less.  For instance - maybe the city's 2% sales tax rate would be dropped.

8. OSHA standards don't apply to every factory.  ISO standards are optional.  And like I said before, the factory should be punished severely, not the worker.  But if the worker is reaping the rewards, why not have him help out with the other costs.
1. Its 50/50 illegal mexicans/expired visas. I agree this must be a regional issue, until that wall is built and my taxes as an American not a Texan will go to building that wall which has been proven to hold the illegals up from crossing for a whopping 2 minutes and 30 seconds.

3. So the impact of illegal immigranst is to the extent of your dept. of transportation can't continue roadwork, police apparently can't do thier job (???) and their freeloading has held up the quality of life in texas?

One of my points, you fuckers in Texas have plenty of sports teams/arenas/stadiums (Im jealous). VA has none and no illegal immigrant problem apparently because we don't live on the border. Your one of the biggest states in America. You want me to believe these illegals, working for pennies on the dollar, are dragging your quality of life down? They make it to where you run over an extra pothole each day? They make it so police officers are laid off? It makes no sense. This is Lou Dobbs retort. Now as far as you knowing what your taxes go to because your clients are the city departments, I still find it hard to believe you truly know where your taxes go.

5. Most illegal immigrants only crimes are crossing the border illegally and being picked up for marijuana. Sure you have an occasional DUI. Out of thousands across the states a year.

7. Im sure you have more mexicans in your town than me. Its geographic. Now, the illegals freeloading on your infastructure are a burden financially in your words. To the point where it costs you extra cash each year. Now lets say they were legal, and working. Paying taxes. They don't have degrees, some may have the required high school education for some jobs, but I'm willing to bet more than most of them will have minimum wage labor jobs. Guess what that means for you? That means they will still pay les sin taxes, they will probably live in low income housing, they won't own much so still won't pay property taxes. You'll be in the same boat as you are now. Legal immigrants from mexico are still poor and still under educated. So instead of "contributing thier share" they will just contribute to the already large pool of poor americans that some would say are freeloading. Just think, once thier legal, they can work for less, AND take advantage of welfare and social services. Nothing will change. If thier legal they may actually ADD to your burden.

8. I stick by my guns. If there is a factory full of illegals, we're talking hundreds of people to run a manufacturing floor, that factory/business has bigger internal issues. I agree though, with punishing employers. The only thing is thats subject to discrimination. Sur eyou can fine Joe Blow who runs his own gutter/siding business. What about the Senator with the illegal nanny?
2007-05-09 12:51:13
weamo8
Member
+50|6659|USA

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

weamo8 wrote:

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

True or False

Illegal Immigration is a bullshit issue that has little effect on the country as a whole.
False

According to Gorge Borgas (a renowned economist from Harvard) illegal immigrants greatly exacerbate the widening divide between the rich and the poor, steal millions (perhaps billions) of dollars directly from our economy and send them out of the country, and tax our health and law enforcement in dollar amounts we cant quite comprehend.

Many economists consider the size and income of the middle class to be the most important metric of a health economy.  Illegal immigration is killing our middle class.

I would pay a few more bucks for strawberries to alleviate these other problems.
So illegal mexicans are widening the gap between rich and poor. Thats horseshit. Government policies have widened that gap, most endorsed by ol GW himself. Please, post the Harvard guys report. Id love to pick it apart.

I really want someone to throw me bone with the "illegals tax the judicial system/law enforcement argument." Someone explain thier view. Because it ludicrous.

I addressed the healthcare fiasco a few posts ago.
Of course big business and thoughtless presidents cause the same problem.  Is that some kind of excuse?  You and Ken seem to be trying to justify it becuase they are not the only cause.  I dont think that is much of an argument.

His name is Jorge Luis Borges.  He is all over the web and has distributed several different reports.  Criticize him all you want, but, suprisingly, I find him more credible than you.  Are you an economist with a PHD mr "Id love to pick it apart."  Why does it seem like all liberals are insanely concieted?
2007-05-09 12:55:09
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6879|USA

Pug wrote:

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

So illegal mexicans are widening the gap between rich and poor. Thats horseshit. Government policies have widened that gap, most endorsed by ol GW himself. Please, post the Harvard guys report. Id love to pick it apart.

I really want someone to throw me bone with the "illegals tax the judicial system/law enforcement argument." Someone explain thier view. Because it ludicrous.

I addressed the healthcare fiasco a few posts ago.
Illegals tax the judicial system/law enforcement by the fact that they are funded by public funds to which they do not contribute. 

So in a sense, as the population of illegals grows, the city's population grows, and so if the crime rate % remains constant, more crimes will be commited (not necessarily by illegals).  So then as the population grows the amount of police remains the same because the funding is relatively the same as before, which means the police patrols are less effective, which means the easier it is to commit a crime, which results in a higher crime rate.

And I do not see how you addressed the healthcare fiasco - unless you referring to the "grandma is fucked" comment.  If more people are going to get free care that shouldn't, doesn't that mean that healthcare cost will increase?  What funds that?
They do not contribute to public funds for law enforcement, and thier contributions to being criminals is minimum. Also, when some rednecks want to go beat down the illegals door they can't call the police. They don't have that right.

As the population grows in your state, the budgets for the police must increase for patrols to be effective. Now out of all incarcerated people in the US, 17% are illegals; mostly drug possession. So if they aren't contributing to the problem of crime, then the "taxing" of the law enforcement is false.

I'll re-address the healthcare fiasco. Immigrants aren't driving up healthcare costs. Bush said himself malpractice suits are driving up healthcare costs. THen he mentioned illegals driving it up, but forgot to mention the cuts he made to medicare medicade continuously every year to add more funding to the defense budget. Illegals have NOTHING to do with your shit healthcare system.
2007-05-09 12:58:26
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6879|USA

weamo8 wrote:

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

weamo8 wrote:

False

According to Gorge Borgas (a renowned economist from Harvard) illegal immigrants greatly exacerbate the widening divide between the rich and the poor, steal millions (perhaps billions) of dollars directly from our economy and send them out of the country, and tax our health and law enforcement in dollar amounts we cant quite comprehend.

Many economists consider the size and income of the middle class to be the most important metric of a health economy.  Illegal immigration is killing our middle class.

I would pay a few more bucks for strawberries to alleviate these other problems.
So illegal mexicans are widening the gap between rich and poor. Thats horseshit. Government policies have widened that gap, most endorsed by ol GW himself. Please, post the Harvard guys report. Id love to pick it apart.

I really want someone to throw me bone with the "illegals tax the judicial system/law enforcement argument." Someone explain thier view. Because it ludicrous.

I addressed the healthcare fiasco a few posts ago.
Of course big business and thoughtless presidents cause the same problem.  Is that some kind of excuse?  You and Ken seem to be trying to justify it becuase they are not the only cause.  I dont think that is much of an argument.

His name is Jorge Luis Borges.  He is all over the web and has distributed several different reports.  Criticize him all you want, but, suprisingly, I find him more credible than you.  Are you an economist with a PHD mr "Id love to pick it apart."  Why does it seem like all liberals are insanely concieted?
Illegal Immigrants have been crossing that border for more years than you or I have been alive.

Just post the report your talking about, and we'll go from there. I think you got the name wrong. I googled it got some director from Argentina. Or is that the same guy? Hilarious his name is Jorge.

And for the record, 1 billion scientists could tell non-liberals global warming is real and you'd still dismiss it. A harvard guy and President Bush tells you illegals are the downfall of America and you believe it to the t. So concieted allegations can go both ways big man.

Last edited by Mason4Assassin444 (2007-05-09 13:00:00)

2007-05-09 12:58:52
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6759|Texas - Bigger than France
Well move along then.  We agree on the issues I wanted you to see.

Which goes back to my original post - where do you live?  The only reason I'm vocal about this is because it IS a problem.  Is it a National Problem?  Who knows, but it's politics - and last time I checked Texas & California have more electoral votes.

And one last thing "you said pennies on the dollar".  Not true if it's a "permanent" hire illegal.  If it's "come mow my lawn today Home Depot guy", then you get a little more credit.

The Home Depot guy isn't a threat - it's the permanent worker - which is more of the type we got around here.
2007-05-09 13:08:55
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6879|USA

Pug wrote:

Well move along then.  We agree on the issues I wanted you to see.

Which goes back to my original post - where do you live?  The only reason I'm vocal about this is because it IS a problem.  Is it a National Problem?  Who knows, but it's politics - and last time I checked Texas & California have more electoral votes.

And one last thing "you said pennies on the dollar".  Not true if it's a "permanent" hire illegal.  If it's "come mow my lawn today Home Depot guy", then you get a little more credit.

The Home Depot guy isn't a threat - it's the permanent worker - which is more of the type we got around here.
You get more electoral votes. True. Almost a guarantee that my fed taxes will help build a useless wall  Speaking of, anyone hear of the 80 million dollars privately donated to the "minutemen" to build thier own wall that has disappeared?

The 'permanent illegals" are the problem, not the guys hanging at the home depot. Hmmm...Im thinking those permanent workers aren't making much more than the home depot guy.




Flat out. These people have been crossing that border before you or I were ever born. Therer was mass hysteria when the Iriash migrated, there was mass hysteria when the Asians migrated, there was mass hysteria when the Jews migrated (especially with thier religous practices) and a mass hysteria when the Italians migrated. THis is history repeating itself and in the end Mexicans will be added to American culture just as each race before has.

I guarantee, all of them will get some form of amnesty. But not until after the presidential election. Got to work the issue to get the votes.
2007-05-09 13:11:56
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6879|USA
I understand if some of you guys want to change your vote to TRUE. Let me know, Ill make another poll.
2007-05-09 13:16:23
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6849|949

weamo8 wrote:

Of course big business and thoughtless presidents cause the same problem.  Is that some kind of excuse?  You and Ken seem to be trying to justify it becuase they are not the only cause.  I dont think that is much of an argument.

His name is Jorge Luis Borges.  He is all over the web and has distributed several different reports.  Criticize him all you want, but, suprisingly, I find him more credible than you.  Are you an economist with a PHD mr "Id love to pick it apart."  Why does it seem like all liberals are insanely concieted?
I am not making that argument (justification).

You simply cannot say that Illegal Immigration is having an enormous effect on the middle class without mentioning the fact that out of control corporate pandering/military-industrial complex are probably the biggest factors leading to "the widening divide between the rich and the poor." and they also  "steal millions (perhaps billions) of dollars directly from our economy".

There are so many reasons our government/system is fucked up, and towards the bottom of the list is illegal immigration.  In fact, we (the US) need immigrant workers.  Our economy depends on it.  That is not a justification for it, it is reality.

I have a few simple reasons I do not like illegal immigration -
It is a major fuck you in the face for all current and former legal immigrants paying thousands of dollars and waiting for the LEGAL right.
It helps hold down wages of low-skilled and manual labor.

I think that about covers it.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-05-09 13:27:08)

2007-05-09 13:18:16
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6759|Texas - Bigger than France
Man, you're tough.  Keep expanding the topic.

I don't support the wall.
I don't support the minutemen.

On the home depot thing - you can get one for $30/day (I don't, I like sunshine).  The "permanent hire" I'm talking about the whole minimum wage factory worker thing - that's where the problem is.  And the minimum wage illegal factory guy's take home is MORE that a normal joe who's got that job.

I'm in favor of focusing on corporate corruption - keeping them out is about impossible.  I think my statements have always been "If you can't keep them out then...".  The "then" is the more likely...I'm a realist.

Ok, moving along now.
2007-05-09 13:27:14
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6879|USA

Pug wrote:

Man, you're tough.  Keep expanding the topic.

I don't support the wall.
I don't support the minutemen.

On the home depot thing - you can get one for $30/day (I don't, I like sunshine).  The "permanent hire" I'm talking about the whole minimum wage factory worker thing - that's where the problem is.  And the minimum wage illegal factory guy's take home is MORE that a normal joe who's got that job.

I'm in favor of focusing on corporate corruption - keeping them out is about impossible.  I think my statements have always been "If you can't keep them out then...".  The "then" is the more likely...I'm a realist.

Ok, moving along now.
Alrighty. So you clean out the factory of illegal workers, which take home more than an average american. Im assuming yoursaying this in this context:

Illegal worker make sminimum wage.
American worker makes minimum wage.

But because American worker has to pay part of it to taxes, the illegal makes more. Is that correct?

Now, Im assuming a generic factory with no OSHA and no safety regulations. You tell me, what American is going to work in that factory for minimum wage? What your saying is close the factory due to illegal hiring practices, unfair wages, etc. SO now the factories gone. All those illegals in your community, who would have went and bought food at the grocery store or toys for thier kid at target, isn't spending any money. Sure they send some home. Thats happened for years across all countries immigrants. The truth is though more than half of that cash goes back into the economy in purchases mad eby the illegals.

SO shutting down that factory just put more of a burden on your tax payment. GG.
2007-05-09 13:32:05
weamo8
Member
+50|6659|USA

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

weamo8 wrote:

Of course big business and thoughtless presidents cause the same problem.  Is that some kind of excuse?  You and Ken seem to be trying to justify it becuase they are not the only cause.  I dont think that is much of an argument.

His name is Jorge Luis Borges.  He is all over the web and has distributed several different reports.  Criticize him all you want, but, suprisingly, I find him more credible than you.  Are you an economist with a PHD mr "Id love to pick it apart."  Why does it seem like all liberals are insanely concieted?
I am not making that argument (justification).

You simply cannot say that Illegal Immigration is having an enormous effect on the middle class without mentioning the fact that out of control corporate pandering/military-industrial complex are probably the biggest factors leading to "the widening divide between the rich and the poor." and also  "steal millions (perhaps billions) of dollars directly from our economy".

There are so many reasons our government/system is fucked up, and towards the bottom of the list is illegal immigration.  In fact, we (the US) need immigrant workers.  Our economy depends on it.  That is not a justification for it, it is reality.

I have a few simple reasons I do not like illegal immigration -
It is a major fuck you in the face for all current and former legal immigrants paying thousands of dollars and waiting for the LEGAL right.
It helps hold down wages of low-skilled and manual labor.

I think that about covers it.
I am not sure where you feel that illegal immigration has a small effect on the division between the rich and the poor.

Cheap exploitative labor kills the middle class (often known as the working class) because jobs that they were getting $15-$20 dollars an our for are now being done by illegal immigrants for $5 an hour.  Literally millions of "middle class" people have lost their jobs to immigrants.  What used to be valued as middle class labor (contruction, manufacturing) is now degrated.

This is an extreme example, but it might make the concept easier to grasp.  Can you see how slave labor widens the gap between the rich and the poor?

Illegal aliens do the same thing (to a lesser extent).

However, I completely agree with you that the worst part of illegal immigration is that it is a slap in the face to those who follow the laws.

I would also agree that big business, particularly those that seen work overseas contribute more to the divide than illegal aliens.  However, I would certainly argue that they contribute much more than you are willing to concede they do.

When I get time I will post some of the studies I have read.
2007-05-09 13:33:45
golgoj4
Member
+51|6991|North Hollywood

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Yeah, illegals are beneficial.  Riiiiiight. 

People can't get jobs in LA kitchens because they don't speak the "language of the kitchen".  People are losing construction jobs because 3 illegals will work for the price of one legal worker.  The schools in areas most heavily populated by illegals are forced to educate children whose parents aren't paying into the system.  The children of US citizens have to accept a sub-standard education because teachers must try to teach children who are either illiterate in English or illiterate in both English and their native tongue.   And I'm talking about the hard working illegals, I haven't even started on the criminal element.  But that benefits the US . . . let's start a thread that the existence of the sun is a hoax, too.
I dont think anyone ever said they were beneficial. Im just saying the shit is overblown hype. And it directly contradicts the big highway plan. which Bush's admin supports.

As for the rest of your quote. Yep. They have jobs and work for less. It is a problem. But its not the biggest problem by any means. Especially not in the big picture.

STOP THE INVASION is a big chunk of horsepoo. If it was a big enough problem it would be cut short fast.
Ok. seriously. SHUT THE FUCK UP already.

Its not horseshit for people like me that have watch how La has changed over the past 20 years.
Its not horseshit when I have to explain to a homeowner (cause im a contractor) that those 'cheap' guys wont do it right and they will be calling me back for repairs. Which is always funny.
Its not horseshit when other contractors cant be bothered with the law and hire the home depot crew. If I have to draw a line to a conclusion on that one, your on your own.

I could go on, but why bother? The point is something needs to be done, and sadly its politicized. 

My question is this, why isn't all this energy spent breaking our immigration laws and destroying sectors of our economy spent on spending YOUR own broken system? Just because they wanna play it safe in the US is horseshit (in keeping with the theme), other people in the world are being slaughtered @ the moment have more moral standing to flee to another country than our 'need for migrant workers'. The fucked up part of this whole situation is that on the one hand you have the working class getting shafted, then you have immigrants getting screwed in their country then ours, and corporate America just cashes the checks either way....

I demand bf2s come up with a solution.

Last edited by golgoj4 (2007-05-09 13:43:44)

2007-05-09 13:34:53
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6759|Texas - Bigger than France

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

Alrighty. So you clean out the factory of illegal workers, which take home more than an average american. Im assuming yoursaying this in this context:

Illegal worker make sminimum wage.
American worker makes minimum wage.

But because American worker has to pay part of it to taxes, the illegal makes more. Is that correct?

Now, Im assuming a generic factory with no OSHA and no safety regulations. You tell me, what American is going to work in that factory for minimum wage? What your saying is close the factory due to illegal hiring practices, unfair wages, etc. SO now the factories gone. All those illegals in your community, who would have went and bought food at the grocery store or toys for thier kid at target, isn't spending any money. Sure they send some home. Thats happened for years across all countries immigrants. The truth is though more than half of that cash goes back into the economy in purchases mad eby the illegals.

SO shutting down that factory just put more of a burden on your tax payment. GG.
No, OSHA is not a requirement for all factories, just most.  Those which work within OSHA also know that the INS will be called if the OSHA tips them, so the alien issue isn't which an OSHA factory.

I'm not going to get in the minimum wage thing again.  Do a search with me as author.  I can't expand on perfection.
2007-05-09 13:37:11
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6759|Texas - Bigger than France
We're at an impasse Mason.

I want to thank you for proving to everyone why it's important to vote.

Topic closed

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