Cameron you should know better than to say blind things like that. We all usually disagree with you, but normally you argue well. The above statement is simply unfounded.CameronPoe wrote:
Man created terrorism lowing. You're just giving them a helping hand. Don't flatter yourself. I hardly think the climax was 9/11 given that countless numbers of deaths have occurred since, more than had previously occurred over the past few decades combined in the middle east.lowing wrote:
I get it, we created terrorism by, fighting terrorism. Not that it had already existed before and climaxed on 911, mind you.
Are there not usually about 50 to 100 people a day dying of terrorism in Iraq where previously there had been far far fewer?G3|Genius wrote:
Cameron you should know better than to say blind things like that. We all usually disagree with you, but normally you argue well. The above statement is simply unfounded.CameronPoe wrote:
Man created terrorism lowing. You're just giving them a helping hand. Don't flatter yourself. I hardly think the climax was 9/11 given that countless numbers of deaths have occurred since, more than had previously occurred over the past few decades combined in the middle east.lowing wrote:
I get it, we created terrorism by, fighting terrorism. Not that it had already existed before and climaxed on 911, mind you.
PS I'd imagine most Republican Americans agree with you whereas most Europeans and liberal Americans agree with me.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-24 09:28:06)
ahh, but you said the entire middle east.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone actually knows how many people Saddam had made an "unperson"
You only know what you know because the media wants you to know it.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone actually knows how many people Saddam had made an "unperson"
You only know what you know because the media wants you to know it.
Unlike you? lolG3|Genius wrote:
ahh, but you said the entire middle east.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone actually knows how many people Saddam had made an "unperson"
You only know what you know because the media wants you to know it.
Just because its a good,warm fuzzy story does not mean it ISN'T propaganda. I like the story but i expect the individual soldiers to be trying to do the right thing. Its the guys that are pro-war but not fighting that i think are f*cked in the head. "Sure i support Bush's war. I dont have to fight in it"devildogfo wrote:
Reading this story reminded me of countless similar experiences and gave me a fuzzy feeling. But your responses sicken me. Propaganda? Are you f'in serious? Just because its not pro-insurgency does not mean it is propaganda.
(no disrespect to servicemen, they are hero's to me. Just the politicians that send them dont deserve my respect)
HEAD IN SAND ALERT: You are just choosing to believe what you want to believe ...exactly what you're trying to accuse Cam of. I'd be very surprised if Saddam was getting rid of the same number of people being blown to bits on a daily basis. It would have been very hard to hide that level of covert killing.G3|Genius wrote:
ahh, but you said the entire middle east.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone actually knows how many people Saddam had made an "unperson"
You only know what you know because the media wants you to know it.
By propaganda I think most people here mean a potentially true story taken from a sea of varying individual first hand experiences that is being exploited because it promotes the continuation of the war.PluggedValve wrote:
Just because its a good,warm fuzzy story does not mean it ISN'T propaganda. I like the story but i expect the individual soldiers to be trying to do the right thing. Its the guys that are pro-war but not fighting that i think are f*cked in the head. "Sure i support Bush's war. I dont have to fight in it"devildogfo wrote:
Reading this story reminded me of countless similar experiences and gave me a fuzzy feeling. But your responses sicken me. Propaganda? Are you f'in serious? Just because its not pro-insurgency does not mean it is propaganda.
(no disrespect to servicemen, they are hero's to me. Just the politicians that send them dont deserve my respect)
Propaganda isn't always a matter of true or false it is often a matter of how much one opinion is emphasised over another (like Sky News when they read out emails or FOX News when they have a 'debate' ...3 good speakers on side and 1 crap speaker on the other side for example).
The KKK has declined not because they were defeated but because they are being supplanted by younger and more violent groups like the Hammerskins and because like the vast majority of supremacist groups, their members are a bunch of Napoleon Complex idiots and thus given to infighting and backstabbing. Other supremacist groups like Volksfront have become more media-savvy and better at toning down or concealing the rhetoric while recruiting new members from labor unions to environmentalist groups to pro-Palestinian organizations, fooling people they don't give a damn for into thinking they belong. The KKK's day is over, much like the old-school Mafia is in its twilight. Saying anybody actually defeated the KKK though is like claiming you beat someone in a fight because they died of old age. Yes, some of it was public opinion, but just because one organization has one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel doesn't negate all of the other similarly-minded groups out there.
You don't fight ideas with bullets, you fight them with better ideas. Defend when you're attacked, yes. Remain vigilant. But if you have to fight, fight smart. If you're worried about termites, you don't burn down every house around yours in a five-block radius on the chance they might be harboring termites and then act all wounded when your neighbors get pissed about it. If you're worried about roaches, you don't blow up your kitchen and then complain bitterly that you can't make a sandwich because of what the roaches made you do. You only beat those pests by denying them what they need. You watch your foundation for where termites are trying to get at the wood. You clean up the dirty dishes and food in the kitchen so the roaches have nothing to eat. Brute force ain't gonna cut it with them, and it won't cut it with terrorism. Crush one, crush a dozen, there's a hundred more lined up behind them as long as there's something they can feed on.
We know people don't wake up one morning and decide today would be a good day to strap on a bomb belt. Well-adjusted, happy, comfortable people do not want to blow themselves up. People with grudges do. People with nothing to live for do. People looking for revenge do. The people who recruit and inspire terrorists whether they're neo-Nazi boneheads or fundamentalist mullahs feed on the misery of others. They use scared, angry, vengeful and miserable people as tools but without those people they are nothing; without that pool of broken humanity to draw from they might as well be standing on a streetcorner spewing raving nonsense and waving a sign proclaiming that the end of the world is nigh. They need to be cut off from what they live on; bombings and ground campaigns that spread further misery among the civilian populations they infest aren't going to do that.
You don't fight ideas with bullets, you fight them with better ideas. Defend when you're attacked, yes. Remain vigilant. But if you have to fight, fight smart. If you're worried about termites, you don't burn down every house around yours in a five-block radius on the chance they might be harboring termites and then act all wounded when your neighbors get pissed about it. If you're worried about roaches, you don't blow up your kitchen and then complain bitterly that you can't make a sandwich because of what the roaches made you do. You only beat those pests by denying them what they need. You watch your foundation for where termites are trying to get at the wood. You clean up the dirty dishes and food in the kitchen so the roaches have nothing to eat. Brute force ain't gonna cut it with them, and it won't cut it with terrorism. Crush one, crush a dozen, there's a hundred more lined up behind them as long as there's something they can feed on.
We know people don't wake up one morning and decide today would be a good day to strap on a bomb belt. Well-adjusted, happy, comfortable people do not want to blow themselves up. People with grudges do. People with nothing to live for do. People looking for revenge do. The people who recruit and inspire terrorists whether they're neo-Nazi boneheads or fundamentalist mullahs feed on the misery of others. They use scared, angry, vengeful and miserable people as tools but without those people they are nothing; without that pool of broken humanity to draw from they might as well be standing on a streetcorner spewing raving nonsense and waving a sign proclaiming that the end of the world is nigh. They need to be cut off from what they live on; bombings and ground campaigns that spread further misery among the civilian populations they infest aren't going to do that.
Last edited by HunterOfSkulls (2007-04-24 09:40:53)
I love how these serious topics always turn into cock fights about which forum member can thrust their own beliefs down the throats of those who disagree the hardest. Bottom line: Anyone who listens, trusts, or builds their own opinions about the war in Iraq from any media source is a complete idiot. The media cares about ratings and money, period. You get a news story every few days about this or that many people killed in the "worst" attack yet bullshit, and you get people reading. You report about the hundreds and thousands of lives saved on a weekly basis and sadly, nobody really cares.
word
You've thought about that one a little too much and gone off the trail. In simple terms, your saying: -lowing wrote:
The shooter at VT is DEAD, be it by his own hand, but he surly would have been by someone elses as well. The country, the police, the govt. all came out against these killings. The police were mobilized. In short, something was done to stop it. Your analogy is moot.=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:
To Lowing.
Based on your comments, do you think that all gun owners in the US share the responsibility for what happened at VT? Because your logic suggest exactly that.
You moan when someone critisises the US gun laws on the grounds that the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens and yet you do not apply that same thinking to an entire religion when it comes to Islam, c'mon dude are you being serious here?
You can judge the entire Muslim population including the ones that are law abiding citizens in the West for the killings from some of their mad men.
but,
You can NOT judge all fire arm owners for the killing from one it's mad men.
Do you see the contradiction there? Unless you're suggesting ALL muslims support and celebrate terrorism (Surely you're not that naive?) I don't understand what you're saying.
Last edited by =OBS= EstebanRey (2007-04-24 10:40:05)
There is no contradiction.=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:
You've thought about that one a little too much and gone off the trail. In simple terms, your saying: -lowing wrote:
The shooter at VT is DEAD, be it by his own hand, but he surly would have been by someone elses as well. The country, the police, the govt. all came out against these killings. The police were mobilized. In short, something was done to stop it. Your analogy is moot.=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:
To Lowing.
Based on your comments, do you think that all gun owners in the US share the responsibility for what happened at VT? Because your logic suggest exactly that.
You moan when someone critisises the US gun laws on the grounds that the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens and yet you do not apply that same thinking to an entire religion when it comes to Islam, c'mon dude are you being serious here?
You can judge the entire Muslim population including the ones that are law abiding citizens in the West for the killings from some of their mad men.
but,
You can NOT judge all fire arm owners for the killing from one it's mad men.
Do you see the contradiction there? Unless you're suggesting ALL muslims support and celebrate terrorism (Surely you're not that naive?) I don't understand what you're saying.
I have not "JUDGED" anyone. I want to know why the US population was able to shut down a terrorist group like the KKK and the ME population did not do the same with their extremists? After all I am constantly reminded that the terrorists are such a small group of people. Fine, Shut them down.
Instead of rehashing this entire thread, why don't we start fresh and you just ask me a point blank question. We can start from there.
Last edited by lowing (2007-04-24 11:01:57)
I think retired United States Army Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters said it well...
We've been here before.
The United States can no longer afford to stand on the wrong side of history. Borders will change. Yesteryear's brittle stability cannot be recaptured. We will have to live with years of painful instability until this tormented region finds its way to a new "organic" political balance and the appeal of terrorism declines. Young democracies will make choices we deplore but must learn from their own mistakes. As difficult as it is for the American mentality, we must take a long view of the situation: We've failed as a geopolitical architect, but there's still hope for us as a strategic midwife.
Even the report's insistence on the centrality of diplomatic negotiations betrays an obsolete understanding of the world. Diplomacy is uncritically accepted as the answer to all of the Middle East's problems, yet we've been trying it for six decades and the region is arguably worse off today than ever in our lifetimes. You cannot negotiate effectively with interlocutors who either have no interest in talking to you — because they're convinced they're winning — or who view the world as a zero-sum game. Our style of diplomacy presupposes a commonality of interests that simply does not exist in the Middle East.
The traditional wisdom failed us. We need new, innovative ideas, not strategies resurrected from the political crypt.
(Excuse my Copy/Paste, I must now go chug some cough syrup.)
We've been here before.
The United States can no longer afford to stand on the wrong side of history. Borders will change. Yesteryear's brittle stability cannot be recaptured. We will have to live with years of painful instability until this tormented region finds its way to a new "organic" political balance and the appeal of terrorism declines. Young democracies will make choices we deplore but must learn from their own mistakes. As difficult as it is for the American mentality, we must take a long view of the situation: We've failed as a geopolitical architect, but there's still hope for us as a strategic midwife.
Even the report's insistence on the centrality of diplomatic negotiations betrays an obsolete understanding of the world. Diplomacy is uncritically accepted as the answer to all of the Middle East's problems, yet we've been trying it for six decades and the region is arguably worse off today than ever in our lifetimes. You cannot negotiate effectively with interlocutors who either have no interest in talking to you — because they're convinced they're winning — or who view the world as a zero-sum game. Our style of diplomacy presupposes a commonality of interests that simply does not exist in the Middle East.
The traditional wisdom failed us. We need new, innovative ideas, not strategies resurrected from the political crypt.
(Excuse my Copy/Paste, I must now go chug some cough syrup.)
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Lets say that FOX News and the whitehouse and the illuminati and everyone else together in conspiracy invented this story as propoganda. So lets say this story is about as true as the story about the three little pigs. I dont care, Ive seen and experienced these moments many times over. Not only that but this is one where they were compensating for their use of the iraqi family's personal property. thats SOP. but wonderful things LIKE THIS, done out of sheer humanity is done everyday in iraq by both US servicemen and iraqi patriots alike. im not going to cheapen my valued experiences by listing them as proof for you. Whether this is propoganda or not, whether you believe it or not, in its essence it is true.
Cameron. The countries you listed are all friendly countries to the west. And you visited them. And palestine is not a country. And the US is not located in the middle east. My question remains the same: Why do you think YOUR knowledge of the Iraq situation is more accurate than someone who is living there and actively involved? Do you have some advanced politcal background that we dont know about that gives you an edge in analyzing this complex situation? Cause i just dont see it. I see parroting of the same "propoganda" over and over.
Cameron. The countries you listed are all friendly countries to the west. And you visited them. And palestine is not a country. And the US is not located in the middle east. My question remains the same: Why do you think YOUR knowledge of the Iraq situation is more accurate than someone who is living there and actively involved? Do you have some advanced politcal background that we dont know about that gives you an edge in analyzing this complex situation? Cause i just dont see it. I see parroting of the same "propoganda" over and over.
So you admit you know what you know because of your media. Not because of being immersed in the situation and meeting these people face to face.CameronPoe wrote:
Unlike you? lolG3|Genius wrote:
ahh, but you said the entire middle east.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone actually knows how many people Saddam had made an "unperson"
You only know what you know because the media wants you to know it.
I'll tell you how I gather information/come to decisions:devildogfo wrote:
So you admit you know what you know because of your media. Not because of being immersed in the situation and meeting these people face to face.CameronPoe wrote:
Unlike you? lolG3|Genius wrote:
ahh, but you said the entire middle east.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone actually knows how many people Saddam had made an "unperson"
You only know what you know because the media wants you to know it.
a) Common sense, logic, analysis, reasoning.
b) Extensive reading of literature on various aspects of the middle east and elsewhere.
c) My travels throughout the middle east, in particular my trip to Israel/Palestine.
d) Reading a selection of both left wing and right wing media, casting a discerning eye over it and coming to a reasonable conclusion on what the facts might be (exercising a healthy dose of cynicism).
e) My own personal experience having been brought up on the border of the war/terrorism zone that was Northern Ireland.
f) Almost forgot: my friend Nezzar at work who has family in Iraq.
g) Gunslinger OIF II.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-26 00:11:33)
I never said the story was invented. I'm quite certain it's fact. The fact of the matter is that it is being used as propaganda by a right wing website - that's all I said. I know from Gunslinger OIF that these things happen in Iraq and I would assume they do anyway. US soldiers are generally good well-meaning people. Its their leaders who have failed them. You have shown poor reading of my posts by trying to insinuate that I didn't think the story was true - try re-reading them.devildogfo wrote:
Lets say that FOX News and the whitehouse and the illuminati and everyone else together in conspiracy invented this story as propoganda. So lets say this story is about as true as the story about the three little pigs. I dont care, Ive seen and experienced these moments many times over. Not only that but this is one where they were compensating for their use of the iraqi family's personal property. thats SOP. but wonderful things LIKE THIS, done out of sheer humanity is done everyday in iraq by both US servicemen and iraqi patriots alike. im not going to cheapen my valued experiences by listing them as proof for you. Whether this is propoganda or not, whether you believe it or not, in its essence it is true.
Cameron. The countries you listed are all friendly countries to the west. And you visited them. And palestine is not a country. And the US is not located in the middle east. My question remains the same: Why do you think YOUR knowledge of the Iraq situation is more accurate than someone who is living there and actively involved? Do you have some advanced politcal background that we dont know about that gives you an edge in analyzing this complex situation? Cause i just dont see it. I see parroting of the same "propoganda" over and over.
As for the countries I've been to: the goverments may be pro-US but the people most certainly aren't (except for Israel). I'm not generally in the habit of bumping into government ministers on my travels - it's generally the ordinary citizens I end up chatting with. Your comment about Palestine is retarded. It isn't a country so what.... it doesn't exist? Please.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-26 00:33:59)
As I have already said above in this thread propaganda is not just the invention of stories to champion one side of an issue over another, it can be the selection by the media of certain stories (e.g. happy, positive stories) over others (e.g. negative stories about fatalities and destruction) to convey an unbalanced picture of what's actually happening.CameronPoe wrote:
I never said the story was invented. I'm quite certain it's fact. The fact of the matter is that it is being used as propaganda by a right wing website - that's all I said. I know from Gunslinger OIF that these things happen in Iraq. US soldiers are generally good well-meaning people. Its their leaders who have failed them. You have shown poor reading of my posts by trying to insinuate that I didn't think the story was true - try re-reading them.devildogfo wrote:
Lets say that FOX News and the whitehouse and the illuminati and everyone else together in conspiracy invented this story as propoganda. So lets say this story is about as true as the story about the three little pigs. I dont care, Ive seen and experienced these moments many times over. Not only that but this is one where they were compensating for their use of the iraqi family's personal property. thats SOP. but wonderful things LIKE THIS, done out of sheer humanity is done everyday in iraq by both US servicemen and iraqi patriots alike. im not going to cheapen my valued experiences by listing them as proof for you. Whether this is propoganda or not, whether you believe it or not, in its essence it is true.
Cameron. The countries you listed are all friendly countries to the west. And you visited them. And palestine is not a country. And the US is not located in the middle east. My question remains the same: Why do you think YOUR knowledge of the Iraq situation is more accurate than someone who is living there and actively involved? Do you have some advanced politcal background that we dont know about that gives you an edge in analyzing this complex situation? Cause i just dont see it. I see parroting of the same "propoganda" over and over.
As for the countries I've been to: the goverments may be pro-US but the people most certainly aren't (except for Israel). I'm not generally in the habit of bumping into government ministers on my travels - it's generally the ordinary citizens I end up chatting with. Your comment about Palestine is retarded. It isn't a country so what.... it doesn't exist? Please.
I don't think many people here really believe US troops go around slaughtering Iraqis door to door, I am sure there are plenty of stories like the one discussed here that are all true but anyone who is anti-war would argue that if the war had not taken place the people being helped by the US troops would not have needed their help in the first place.
No, you haven't. You've been funding wars and terrorists for 6 decades. Now you're cutting out the middle man.Kmarion wrote:
Diplomacy is uncritically accepted as the answer to all of the Middle East's problems, yet we've been trying it for six decades and the region is arguably worse off today than ever in our lifetimes.
Quite true. Diplomacy is never going to work while your pumping billions of dollars into one sides pockets while turning a blind eye to anything they do to anyone else in the region.Bubbalo wrote:
No, you haven't. You've been funding wars and terrorists for 6 decades. Now you're cutting out the middle man.Kmarion wrote:
Diplomacy is uncritically accepted as the answer to all of the Middle East's problems, yet we've been trying it for six decades and the region is arguably worse off today than ever in our lifetimes.
1. No-one questions the loyalty these men have to their country, misplaced as it may be.G3|Genius wrote:
I found this on Drudge and I love to read it things like this.
I want everyone in america to read this email. I want the whole world to read this email, especially those of you that hate our nation and hate the war because you have no clue what's going on there and just go by what the drive-by media tells you.
You who disregard the undeniable fact that the media is out to make money and not out to give you the truth:
Here is a copy of an email from a US marine in Iraq, responding to Harry Reid (a deadbeat liberal senator).
http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/dat … flash1.htm
Read this, and LEARN something.
PS, [b]AMERICA KICKS ASS
link updated
2. No-one will deny that what these guys are doing in Iraq is a very heavy burdon.
I think it's YOU that needs to learn something. We (the world) don't have a problem with the military itself. We have a problem with the reason they are there. And there is no war to win. Never was. There's oil to secure and politics to win, not any war, not anything that has to do with your freedom. Cuz if you still think Iraq somehow posed a threat to your freedom then you are an idiot.
Tiger