No Cam not avoiding the issue, the thing is you and I will never agree on this. I believe Israel has a right to exist where it is historically, you do not. What more can be said about it?CameronPoe wrote:
Nice avoidance of the issue. Nice. Where is their parliament pray tell?lowing wrote:
Pick a US paper, they already OWN California and ArizonaCameronPoe wrote:
Yes I think the creation of the state of Israel is provokation enough...
It would be funny to listen to lowing squirm the issue of a nation of 'Nuevo Mexico' being created through force in Arizona or California using his tired reasoning.
You're trying to tell us that Palestinians aren't tired, weak, persecuted underdogs. What a joke.lowing wrote:
NO serge I am not biased, I don't give 2 shits about Israel or anyone else over there, I simply call them like I see them, and I see the Jews, are the ones getting their asses kicked throughout history. Add to it, the current behavior of the ME countries, and I form my opinion. Believe me if I saw the Muslims as the tired weak, persecuted, underdogs, here I would defend them, as it is, they are the instigators in this whole mess IMO. I say this since they have been killing Jews long before their was even an excuse to do so called Israel.
Instigation: creation of the state of Israel.
In the interests of empathising with my position please consider the 'Nuevo Mexico' analogy. They did own California, Texas, etc., at one point too - perhaps that it's their 'historical right' to be there.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-23 07:06:58)
Care to add any other groups other than the Palestinians into your response to my post??CameronPoe wrote:
You're trying to tell us that Palestinians aren't tired, weak, persecuted underdogs. What a joke.lowing wrote:
NO serge I am not biased, I don't give 2 shits about Israel or anyone else over there, I simply call them like I see them, and I see the Jews, are the ones getting their asses kicked throughout history. Add to it, the current behavior of the ME countries, and I form my opinion. Believe me if I saw the Muslims as the tired weak, persecuted, underdogs, here I would defend them, as it is, they are the instigators in this whole mess IMO. I say this since they have been killing Jews long before their was even an excuse to do so called Israel.
Instigation: creation of the state of Israel.
The Palestinians seem to have enough energy and strength to vote in a terror cell as a govt. as well as launch rocket attacks into Israel,not at a military target mind you, but into the civilian populations
Last edited by lowing (2007-04-23 05:51:26)
I am not going to get into the history of the world wide land grab with you. The world borders are what they are, if you want to reset everyone back 5000 years and put everyone back where they belong give it a shot. I for one live within the realms of current events, and will form my posts as such with regard to this issue. Destroying Israel is not realistic and not an option. If the Mexicans want to start a war for possession of American South West than so be it, I guess we will fight a war here.CameronPoe wrote:
You're trying to tell us that Palestinians aren't tired, weak, persecuted underdogs. What a joke.lowing wrote:
NO serge I am not biased, I don't give 2 shits about Israel or anyone else over there, I simply call them like I see them, and I see the Jews, are the ones getting their asses kicked throughout history. Add to it, the current behavior of the ME countries, and I form my opinion. Believe me if I saw the Muslims as the tired weak, persecuted, underdogs, here I would defend them, as it is, they are the instigators in this whole mess IMO. I say this since they have been killing Jews long before their was even an excuse to do so called Israel.
Instigation: creation of the state of Israel.
In the interests of empthasing with my position please consider the 'Nuevo Mexico' analogy. They did own California, Texas, etc., at one point too - perhaps that it's their 'historical right' to be there.
The fact of the matter is that you can't seem to understand that the world borders in Palestine are not 'what they are' or 'cast in stone'. It's a live situation. I am simply criticising your 'Israel deserve to be there' rationale. Thank you for conceding that, like many Palestinians, you would resist Mexican attempts to create a nation in the USA with the use of force.lowing wrote:
I am not going to get into the history of the world wide land grab with you. The world borders are what they are, if you want to reset everyone back 5000 years and put everyone back where they belong give it a shot. I for one live within the realms of current events, and will form my posts as such with regard to this issue. Destroying Israel is not realistic and not an option. If the Mexicans want to start a war for possession of American South West than so be it, I guess we will fight a war here.
BTW, I don't believe in the destruction of the state of Israel. I believe in the two-state solution.
My use of force does NOT include or CONDONE going to Mexico and blowing up children or women. How about your beloved Palestine??CameronPoe wrote:
The fact of the matter is that you can't seem to understand that the world borders in Palestine are not 'what they are' or 'cast in stone'. It's a live situation. I am simply criticising your 'Israel deserve to be there' rationale. Thank you for conceding that, like many Palestinians, you would resist Mexican attempts to create a nation in the USA with the use of force.lowing wrote:
I am not going to get into the history of the world wide land grab with you. The world borders are what they are, if you want to reset everyone back 5000 years and put everyone back where they belong give it a shot. I for one live within the realms of current events, and will form my posts as such with regard to this issue. Destroying Israel is not realistic and not an option. If the Mexicans want to start a war for possession of American South West than so be it, I guess we will fight a war here.
BTW, I don't believe in the destruction of the state of Israel. I believe in the two-state solution.
I thought you were OK with collateral damage? Didn't you regard it as fine for the Israelis to bombard Lebanese civilian areas (where women and children live) with airstrikes, artillery and mortar rounds? Or have you changed your mind in the last five minutes. Personally I find that kind of 'collateral' damage abhorrent. Don't you see it as legitimate in the Iraqi context with US airstrikes?lowing wrote:
My use of force does NOT include or CONDONE going to Mexico and blowing up children or women. How about your beloved Palestine??CameronPoe wrote:
The fact of the matter is that you can't seem to understand that the world borders in Palestine are not 'what they are' or 'cast in stone'. It's a live situation. I am simply criticising your 'Israel deserve to be there' rationale. Thank you for conceding that, like many Palestinians, you would resist Mexican attempts to create a nation in the USA with the use of force.lowing wrote:
I am not going to get into the history of the world wide land grab with you. The world borders are what they are, if you want to reset everyone back 5000 years and put everyone back where they belong give it a shot. I for one live within the realms of current events, and will form my posts as such with regard to this issue. Destroying Israel is not realistic and not an option. If the Mexicans want to start a war for possession of American South West than so be it, I guess we will fight a war here.
BTW, I don't believe in the destruction of the state of Israel. I believe in the two-state solution.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-23 06:06:59)
Technically they got California back.lowing wrote:
Pick a US paper, they already OWN California and ArizonaCameronPoe wrote:
Yes I think the creation of the state of Israel is provokation enough...Bubbalo wrote:
An unprovoked rocket attack? It's part of a war that's been going on for decades, you twit.
It would be funny to listen to lowing squirm the issue of a nation of 'Nuevo Mexico' being created through force in Arizona or California using his tired reasoning.
No Cam, what I said was, you can not blame Israel for launching strikes into an area where attacks have been coming from. Hamas uses women and children as shields, they make no attempt to protect them. They count on their deaths to be used as propaganda against Israel. I know you know what I said, you are just trying to be difficult.CameronPoe wrote:
I thought you were OK with collateral damage? Didn't you regard it as fine for the Israelis to bombard Lebanese civilian areas (where women and children live) with airstrikes, artillery and mortar rounds? Or have you changed your mind in the last five minutes. Personally I find that kind of 'collateral' damage abhorrent. Don't you see it as legitimate in the Iraqi context with US airstrikes?lowing wrote:
My use of force does NOT include or CONDONE going to Mexico and blowing up children or women. How about your beloved Palestine??CameronPoe wrote:
The fact of the matter is that you can't seem to understand that the world borders in Palestine are not 'what they are' or 'cast in stone'. It's a live situation. I am simply criticising your 'Israel deserve to be there' rationale. Thank you for conceding that, like many Palestinians, you would resist Mexican attempts to create a nation in the USA with the use of force.
BTW, I don't believe in the destruction of the state of Israel. I believe in the two-state solution.
Excuse me lowing - since when were attacks coming from Beirut international airport? Where western tourists flock in their droves to visit Lebanon? You seem to have a 'holier-than-thou' view of Israel when the reality is far far from angelic.lowing wrote:
No Cam, what I said was, you can not blame Israel for launching strikes into an area where attacks have been coming from. Hamas uses women and children as shields, they make no attempt to protect them. They count on their deaths to be used as propaganda against Israel. I know you know what I said, you are just trying to be difficult.
Sorry Cam, not trying to be difficult here, but ya lost me.CameronPoe wrote:
Excuse me lowing - since when were attacks coming from Beirut international airport? Where western tourists flock in their droves to visit Lebanon? You seem to have a 'holier-than-thou' view of Israel when the reality is far far from angelic.lowing wrote:
No Cam, what I said was, you can not blame Israel for launching strikes into an area where attacks have been coming from. Hamas uses women and children as shields, they make no attempt to protect them. They count on their deaths to be used as propaganda against Israel. I know you know what I said, you are just trying to be difficult.
Nobody is saying Israel has no right to exist. But Palestine has also a right to exist. As I see it, Israel is making an ethnic cleansing in Palestine.lowing wrote:
No Cam not avoiding the issue, the thing is you and I will never agree on this. I believe Israel has a right to exist where it is historically, you do not. What more can be said about it?CameronPoe wrote:
Nice avoidance of the issue. Nice. Where is their parliament pray tell?lowing wrote:
Pick a US paper, they already OWN California and Arizona
The sad thing is they are teaching their children hate. Cam your position on having 2 separate states is a great idea, but it will never happen. As long as both parties teach hate, nothing will come but more rocket attacks, more suicide bombs, more air strikes and more invasions. Until they learn to live together we will continue to have these arguments on Internet forums.
Sorry if I ramble, I was at work 12hrs and got home and couldn't sleep
Sorry if I ramble, I was at work 12hrs and got home and couldn't sleep
Didn`t we have this debate allready ? .... i thought this was about the education of the young ones and maybe how we teach them tolerance ?
We teach our toddlers that in Norwegian school that we are all created equal and that we all have the same rights, is that such a horrible thought ?
We teach our toddlers that in Norwegian school that we are all created equal and that we all have the same rights, is that such a horrible thought ?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Sadly true, as long as their kids are taught to hate, the conflict will continue.SgtHeihn wrote:
The sad thing is they are teaching their children hate. Cam your position on having 2 separate states is a great idea, but it will never happen. As long as both parties teach hate, nothing will come but more rocket attacks, more suicide bombs, more air strikes and more invasions. Until they learn to live together we will continue to have these arguments on Internet forums.
Sorry if I ramble, I was at work 12hrs and got home and couldn't sleep
Last edited by sergeriver (2007-04-23 06:35:31)
wrong, actually. Arabic numerals were stolen from the Indians way back when the Arabic empire was at its greatest.Invaderzim wrote:
They gave you numbers and maths, and just because of small number of extremists you seem to dislike Muslims.lowing wrote:
Invaderzim wrote:
For all the hate you dish out at muslims thay have given you alot.
Yes I am sooo full of hate, I need to be understanding of terrorism, suicide vests, mass murdering of women and children..... GOD, I am so close minded.
as for the issue at hand, I'm so divided it makes my head spin.
on the one hand, Serge is right. the textbooks should not be teaching this hate. however, one of my friends recently immigrated from Israel, and his absolute best friend is Muslim, so I can't help but think its falling on deaf ears or being ousted by good parenting.
on the other, lowing is right. Israel was attacked without provocation and as such should have retaliated. was six guys a bit much? yeah, I'll give you that one, but one the situation be any different were it happening elsewhere? look at the Irish movement, and I think you'll see it won't be. people have a tendency to fight to the extreme when they truly believe its right.
just like you want these two peoples to be, be tolerant and forgiving. maybe they'll learn from their mistakes and become one great country in 20 years.
I wish someone would "educate" Americans about this and consider why we have given 91 billion+ to a people who teach intolerance.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
American taxpayers have been throwing good money into the trashcan on programs that end up biting them in the ass for a long time. I've come to the conclusion that most Americans, starting around the 1950's, simply don't like their money or don't care about it.Kmarion wrote:
I wish someone would "educate" Americans about this and consider why we have given 91 billion+ to a people who teach intolerance.
More specifically though, two groups have a special place in their hearts for handing cash to the Israelis, the Jewish-Zionist lobby (not "the Jews"), and the evangelical Christian lobby (Pat Robertson worshippers, et al). Don't fuck with Bush's rabid frothing "Lets bring on the Apocolypse" Christian soldier base or Bill "my other favorite country is Israel" Clinton.
Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2007-04-23 07:35:54)
You know whats really disturbing... Consider the cuts we did during the late 80's through the 90's to our intelligence agencies. I have to think if we were not giving billions to the Israeli's those cuts would not have been so severe and our intelligence agencies would have had a better chance to identify threats to our security (Prior to the Attacks). The thought that Israel would cease to exist unless we fund them militarily is simply not true.GorillaTicTacs wrote:
American taxpayers have been throwing good money into the trashcan on programs that end up biting them in the ass for a long time. I've come to the conclusion that most Americans, starting around the 1950's, simply don't like their money or don't care about it.Kmarion wrote:
I wish someone would "educate" Americans about this and consider why we have given 91 billion+ to a people who teach intolerance.
More specifically though, two groups have a special place in their hearts for handing cash to the Israelis, the Jewish-Zionist lobby (not "the Jews"), and the evangelical Christian lobby (Pat Robertson worshippers, et al). Don't fuck with Bush's rabid frothing base or Clinton's "people he admires".
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I don't see how 90% of the population being forced out of their homes, having to leave their cities for the land and not being able to tend to their crops because of a wall is not provocation for attacking Israel.
Oh, and btw, lowing: It says "Jews" in the text books because most of them don't see any other Jews besides those in Israel. A friend of my dad's is Palestinian - guess what? He can't get a job anywhere in the world even though he got a scholarship at MIT because he doesn't have a passport that he can show - because Palestine isn't recognized as a country in many places. Now ask yourself - which one is it that should not be recognized as a country?
I think it's Israel...
-konfusion
Oh, and btw, lowing: It says "Jews" in the text books because most of them don't see any other Jews besides those in Israel. A friend of my dad's is Palestinian - guess what? He can't get a job anywhere in the world even though he got a scholarship at MIT because he doesn't have a passport that he can show - because Palestine isn't recognized as a country in many places. Now ask yourself - which one is it that should not be recognized as a country?
I think it's Israel...
-konfusion
Go hang out in Palestine for a while and come back and tell me the Israelis are the downtrodden people!lowing wrote:
NO serge I am not biased, I don't give 2 shits about Israel or anyone else over there, I simply call them like I see them, and I see the Jews, are the ones getting their asses kicked throughout history. Add to it, the current behavior of the ME countries, and I form my opinion. Believe me if I saw the Muslims as the tired weak, persecuted, underdogs, here I would defend them, as it is, they are the instigators in this whole mess IMO. I say this since they have been killing Jews long before their was even an excuse to do so called Israel.sergeriver wrote:
I prefer to use the term Israel because being half Jew myself I felt insulted when you use the word Jews related to what Israel is doing.lowing wrote:
I will use Israel instead of Jews, when the text book you cite uses Israel instead of Jews.
Israel has a right to defend itself, I nailed you yesterday on your bias toward this issue. You posted that Israel killed 6 Palestinians in response to an unprovoked rocket attack into Israel where only 2 people got hurt. You condemned Israel for retaliating. You said nothing of the Palestinians rocket attack that drew this reaction by Israel.This attitude does not make sense to me, and your bias toward it is obvious. When you FUCK with someone, EXPECT to get FUCKED back. Leave Israel alone, stop attacking them, they have a right to exist, serge. Are you really so pissed off that Israel is a better shot than Palestine??
I never said it's OK for the Palestinians to throw rockets into Israel. I just said that retaliation is not good. If nobody got killed, despite the fact it's wrong to throw rockets into another country, why should they kill 6 people? That will bring more hatred. That's what I meant whith that post. And thanks for derailing this one, where I recognize that both countries are wrong by teaching this BS to kids.
You are too biased too see that.
You certainly seem to hate Muslims/Arabs in general.lowing wrote:
Yes I am sooo full of hate, I need to be understanding of terrorism, suicide vests, mass murdering of women and children..... GOD, I am so close minded.Invaderzim wrote:
For all the hat you dish out at muslims thay have given you alot.
lowing, Israel destroyed Lebanon's airport during the conflict. That's what a lot of people keep trying to articulate in these debates, Israel is heavy handed in it's responses to attacks. There were never rocket attacks coming from the airport so one must ask how they determined it a legitimate target.lowing wrote:
Sorry Cam, not trying to be difficult here, but ya lost me.CameronPoe wrote:
Excuse me lowing - since when were attacks coming from Beirut international airport? Where western tourists flock in their droves to visit Lebanon? You seem to have a 'holier-than-thou' view of Israel when the reality is far far from angelic.lowing wrote:
No Cam, what I said was, you can not blame Israel for launching strikes into an area where attacks have been coming from. Hamas uses women and children as shields, they make no attempt to protect them. They count on their deaths to be used as propaganda against Israel. I know you know what I said, you are just trying to be difficult.
The way I see it, do not blame Israel for taking the offensive in a war that was started by Muslims thousands of yearsa ago.Braddock wrote:
Go hang out in Palestine for a while and come back and tell me the Israelis are the downtrodden people!lowing wrote:
NO serge I am not biased, I don't give 2 shits about Israel or anyone else over there, I simply call them like I see them, and I see the Jews, are the ones getting their asses kicked throughout history. Add to it, the current behavior of the ME countries, and I form my opinion. Believe me if I saw the Muslims as the tired weak, persecuted, underdogs, here I would defend them, as it is, they are the instigators in this whole mess IMO. I say this since they have been killing Jews long before their was even an excuse to do so called Israel.sergeriver wrote:
I prefer to use the term Israel because being half Jew myself I felt insulted when you use the word Jews related to what Israel is doing.
I never said it's OK for the Palestinians to throw rockets into Israel. I just said that retaliation is not good. If nobody got killed, despite the fact it's wrong to throw rockets into another country, why should they kill 6 people? That will bring more hatred. That's what I meant whith that post. And thanks for derailing this one, where I recognize that both countries are wrong by teaching this BS to kids.
You are too biased too see that.
Nope, I hate specific behavior in general, and I apply that hatred to evereyone regardless of race or religion. I see the Jews as victims in history, and I see you all getting pissed off that they actually will now fight back and defend themselvesMasques wrote:
You certainly seem to hate Muslims/Arabs in general.lowing wrote:
Yes I am sooo full of hate, I need to be understanding of terrorism, suicide vests, mass murdering of women and children..... GOD, I am so close minded.Invaderzim wrote:
For all the hat you dish out at muslims thay have given you alot.