=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6752|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

SharkyMcshark wrote:

This is how it is. Gun control wont work in the USA imo. This is because the ownership of firearms is so deeply rooted in their culture that there would be a revolution pretty much if people tried to restrict things enough to lower the levels of guns violence. This means the only way to makes things safer is to go in the opposite direction.

Sure, hell, give everyone the right to be packing in public. Welcome to the old days of the wild west boys and girls, where everyones a cowboy!

Only problem is this. Some sick bastard walks into a public place and starts shooting people. You know odds are he's not going to stop shooting until someone shoots him or he shoots himself. So Citizen Joe doesn't stop to yell "freeze, put the gun down", he just unholsters and lets fly. Citizen Jim arrives on the scene after hearing gunshots. He sees Joe gun the sick bastard down and thinks "Oh shit, someone on a rampage" and the same thoughts run through Jim's mind, about how psychopaths generally dont like to stop shooting people, and seeing as hes now mistake Joe for the psychopath Jim unholsters and starts shooting at Joe.

Voila. There we go. The ORIGINAL gunman is down, but down your public place/mall/school/college has turned into a wild west shootout.

Now, I've fired a Glock 19*, one of the guns used by the VT shooter. I can't tell you how amazingly scary it would be living in a society where I know that everyone I see walking down the street is packing a gun. While its none of my business, it is sad that American culture is so insane and obsessed over firearms that the only way they can feel safe is if they have MORE firearms

*Who'da thought the one of two models of gun I've ever fired would be used by that guy....
+1, my sentiment exactly.  Sadly I stupidly assumed that most of the US public would prefer a gun-free society but now I seriously believe that even if they were offered a complete gun free environment (including the Criminals, hypothetically) they wouldn't take it.

You see, from a lot of the pro gun comments it seems to me that the "self defence" argument is nothing more than a smoke screen for the real reason they don't want a ban/harsh restrictions.  The real reason is because they love them, it is ingrained in their culture and perpetuated by their Hollywood counterparts.  It is eveidence by the some of the photos here (from an earlier page) and on the internet.  "Look at me with my big gun", it's obvious how attached they are to them emotionally.

It's nothing to do with defending one's self against a mugger/burglar/rapist because as many people here have pointed out, the chances are the criminal wins and someone dies in most cases.  No, it's defence of an American Tradition that has got people fired up here and there is nothing wrong with that in principle,  I would be mad if someone said we Brits couldn't eat fish-n-chips.

However at some point you have to look at your traditions and ask if they need re-evaluating. 

Recently we banned fox hunting in the UK, a tradition spanning hundreds of years and we had the same kind of arguing technique used by the pro-hunting brigade that the pro-gunners are using here.  Avoid the cruelty aspect and concentrate of how we need to control Foxes blah blah blah.

I understand it's your tradition, I understand it is very hard to change culture overnight but surely you would support at least discussion on the matter and more restrictions that weed out potential psychos.  Doing a mental health check would be a start....
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6783|the dank(super) side of Oregon

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

Cho could have said exactly the same thing up until he did what he did.  It's all very well you saying how responsible you are but that's your word.  Again, I come back to Iran, they say that they would be responsible with nuclear technology but do you trust them even though you actually don't know the regime?
I am by no means suggesting that anyone should be allowed to purchase a firearm.  If anything, there should be tighter restrictions and requirements.  It is definitely a problem that someone like Cho was able to buy a gun, especially considering his documented past.  There a cracks that can hopefully be filled.  99% of legal gun owners in America are just like me.  We are very serious about the responsibility of firearm ownership and we are very concerned about the wrong people having access to firearms.  Criminals and the rotten 1% put everyone else in a very bad position.  Nothing would make us happier than to never hear about guns in the media, as gun violence would be a non-issue.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6834|949

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

Firearms are complex pieces of machinery, and just getting the parts would be difficult.  Much less someone smart enough to build one.


So tough to build even a Pakistani in a cave with no industrial machinery can make them.

next argument?

Bubbalo wrote:

Industrialisation is about mass production, not about complexity.  They were able to build them thanks to tools and training from the Russians.  So, unless you think the KGB is actively assisted organised crime in the US, it's a moot point.
You argue that it takes an inordinate amount of skill to make guns.  I show it doesn't. 

You change the argument to some rant about the capabilities of 'them' in relation to the perception that you have about the amount of military aid 'Russians' (USSR) gave to 'them' (Pakistanis by the way, not Afghanis).

Bubbalo wrote:

So, unless you think the KGB is actively assisted organised crime in the US, it's a moot point.
Seriously dude, WTF?

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-04-19 03:40:58)

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6763

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

You argue that it takes an inordinate amount of skill to make guns.  I show it doesn't. 

You change the argument to some rant about the capabilities of 'them' in relation to the perception that you have about the amount of military aid 'Russians' (USSR) gave to 'them' (Pakistanis by the way, not Afghanis).
No, I argued that random people can't do it in their backyard.  It wasn't a rant.  And if I were talking about Afghanis I would have said America had taught them because the USSR was the invader there, genius.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

So, unless you think the KGB is actively assisted organised crime in the US, it's a moot point.
Seriously dude, WTF?
Exactly.
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|6968|UK
KEN you have shown Bubbalo right. Those guys in the video have been making guns for 30 years, ofc they know how to do it by now. And bullshit no machines, are you blind? They quite clearly had machines for making the barrels and other metal components, that dude that "made it with his own bare hands" was simply putting together the components.
markkos
Kokko, kokoo koko kokko kokoon!
+9|6877|Zurich, Switzerland
Could someone clarify it to me: What happens during the 7-day-period when you have to wait?
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6752|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

markkos wrote:

Could someone clarify it to me: What happens during the 7-day-period when you have to wait?
From what people have said, at least two checks are carried out. One at state level and one at national level (FBI) although these checks can also be done in minutes so maybe it is a "license processing" delay or something, like when you apply for a passport or driving license.
HeimdalX
Member
+37|6853

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

markkos wrote:

Could someone clarify it to me: What happens during the 7-day-period when you have to wait?
From what people have said, at least two checks are carried out. One at state level and one at national level (FBI) although these checks can also be done in minutes so maybe it is a "license processing" delay or something, like when you apply for a passport or driving license.
Oh look, google

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issu … waitxstate
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6744|Texas - Bigger than France
****Sigh****

There's other problems that make gun control look insignificant.  Try focusing on those.
SteikeTa
Member
+153|6950|Norway/Norwegen/ Norge/Noruega

Parker wrote:

SteikeTa wrote:

Parker wrote:


lol, these kids just have no idea..........
NO ONE WHO HAS A CCW LICENSE WALKS DOWN THE STREET "SHOWING PEOPLE THEIR GUN"!!!!!!!


just another example of if you dont know what you are talking about you make yourself look like an ass.
Yeah, I look like an ass... that's what I wrote, standing on the streets and showing off their gun. Yeah, I wrote that, now let me see if I can find that sentence.......... oh, I can't. Ow yeah, like people would rob you in the middle of a crowded area. And cut the "these kids" crap. Think you are talking to a kid?
"Going out and seeing someone showing it to their friends and woops... it went off(just an example)."



GG kid
........
One thing you are good at, is making me laugh. Yepp, accidents like that has NEVER happened.
Would be great to walk around knowing that everyone were carrying a concealed weapon. Would feel really safe..... Well well, I posted my opinions.
markkos
Kokko, kokoo koko kokko kokoon!
+9|6877|Zurich, Switzerland
In Switzerland they do a similar check but it is initiated when you go to the police to get the license, it takes very long, and they check if you were hospitalized, are under control of another person (i don't know the word for it). In Finland, after the new law of 1998 you have to provide an excuse why you need the firearm, as hunting and sporting that are maybe the most popular classes, then there are work, signalling (for flare guns), show, work, collection and memorabilia. You have to prove your sporting with a valid membership license of a club and other prove of sportings, for hunting at least a valid hunting license, if possible a valid membership license of a hunting club, for collection a collecting permit, work if you are an armed guard or a police officer, signalling only for flare guns, memorabilia is pretty difficult to get and show is only for gas guns (guns with an open barrel that do not shoot ammunition but produce loud sound, if the barrel has a plug and there doesn't come anything but gas it doesn't need a permit). There are measures that qualify specific firearms to specific classes. There are the following classes: Shotgun, rifle, small calibre rifle, pistol, small calibre pistol, revolver, small calibre revolver, combinated firearm (one shotgun one rifle barrel), black powder gun, gas gun, flare gun, pocket gun and other gun. The class of a firearm is determined by it's size. It is nearly impossible to get a pocket gun (GLOCK 19) or other gun (too small to be a rifle, too big to be a pistol). Then you have to determine the action of the weapon, as single shot, single shot with mag (repeating system), self-loading single shot and full auto. You can only get a full auto if you are a long-time collector with a big collection. There are only specified classes available for specified uses. You can't get revolvers or pistols for hunting as example.
But yet, you can already purchase a firearm with 15 years with consent of your parents. Though the applying process is pretty difficult, you can get a firearm very fast if you have a correct purpose for it.
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6596|The Gem Saloon

SteikeTa wrote:

Parker wrote:

SteikeTa wrote:


Yeah, I look like an ass... that's what I wrote, standing on the streets and showing off their gun. Yeah, I wrote that, now let me see if I can find that sentence.......... oh, I can't. Ow yeah, like people would rob you in the middle of a crowded area. And cut the "these kids" crap. Think you are talking to a kid?
"Going out and seeing someone showing it to their friends and woops... it went off(just an example)."



GG kid
........
One thing you are good at, is making me laugh. Yepp, accidents like that has NEVER happened.
Would be great to walk around knowing that everyone were carrying a concealed weapon. Would feel really safe..... Well well, I posted my opinions.
i feel safe knowing that people carry a concealed weapon. you just dont want to admit that there are responsible gun owners that dont-"Going out and seeing someone showing it to their friends and woops... it went off(just an example)."......im sorry you dont have the knowledge to seriously address the firearm issue in this country.....heres an idea....maybe you just dont know.......



oh and thanks for the shit talking karma.
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6752|CH/BR - in UK

Parker. What the hell? You are starting to sound childish - the kind of person who goes "I'm rubber your glue...." or something. Just because his opinion differs from yours does not give you a right to insult him (goes both ways btw). Your problem, apparently, is finding the difference between co-relation and causation. You think there are responsible gun owners, and therefore feel safe. He might not think there are responsible gun owners (although he never stated anything of the sort), but we definitely do know that he doesn't feel safe.
Reading between the lines is never good, because often you find that you see what you want to see, and not what the person is trying to say.

-konfusion
SteikeTa
Member
+153|6950|Norway/Norwegen/ Norge/Noruega

Parker wrote:

SteikeTa wrote:

Parker wrote:


"Going out and seeing someone showing it to their friends and woops... it went off(just an example)."



GG kid
........
One thing you are good at, is making me laugh. Yepp, accidents like that has NEVER happened.
Would be great to walk around knowing that everyone were carrying a concealed weapon. Would feel really safe..... Well well, I posted my opinions.
i feel safe knowing that people carry a concealed weapon. you just dont want to admit that there are responsible gun owners that dont-"Going out and seeing someone showing it to their friends and woops... it went off(just an example)."......im sorry you dont have the knowledge to seriously address the firearm issue in this country.....heres an idea....maybe you just dont know.......



oh and thanks for the shit talking karma.
Ntaaa... did I hurt your feelings saying that you make me laugh? Yeah, that was one example that will happen, and has happend. Do not think that every person who owns a gun is as responsible as you say. Talk about having strickt rules? That will prevent irresponsible people from having one? No it will not. Hope it never happen in my country, that everyone could carry a concealed weapon. I feel safe as it is now. Saying that it will be ok just as long as they do a background check is not good enough. Everyone has a clean background to begin with. Right? Yes, so potential idiots/maniacs can also buy a gun and walk around with it concealed. I would not want that. But you do? Hmm, alright. I wont try to dictate what your country should or should not do, but here, I would not want that to happen. Sorry if I don't make my self very clear, English is not my first language. All in all, it is your country, so you will do what you want. My opinion is that it would not be a good idea. You have your opinion, I have mine. Oh, you forgot to call me a kid by the way.

Next karma will be a more positive one
SteikeTa
Member
+153|6950|Norway/Norwegen/ Norge/Noruega

konfusion wrote:

Parker. What the hell? You are starting to sound childish - the kind of person who goes "I'm rubber your glue...." or something. Just because his opinion differs from yours does not give you a right to insult him (goes both ways btw). Your problem, apparently, is finding the difference between co-relation and causation. You think there are responsible gun owners, and therefore feel safe. He might not think there are responsible gun owners (although he never stated anything of the sort), but we definitely do know that he doesn't feel safe.
Reading between the lines is never good, because often you find that you see what you want to see, and not what the person is trying to say.

-konfusion
Ah, good posting right there. +1
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6596|The Gem Saloon
konfusion, you might have a point. however i have stated i dont know how many times in this thread what the issue is and some people still dont get it. i dont claim that every gun owner is responsible....but what this guy, and so many other in this thread are trying to say WONT WORK. i have stated in this thread that i am for FURTHER REGULATION of firearms in this country....NOT the european version of firearm BANS....that wont happen here.....in order to ban firearms, first we would need to disarm EVERY criminal. that wont happen......then you need to try and get every single firearm from citizens....that sure as hell wont happen.

since people dont understand i will repost what i believe the main issues are with the european style of firearms bans.

konfusion, thanks for the heads up.
steiketa this isnt the first time ive bumped heads with someone across the pond, and it sure as hell wont be the last. if i have offended you then i apologize, please read below from a different post to understand more about the issue with firearms in this country.




you seem to understand the issue that wouldnt allow a european type of gun control policy. i have a few things though...
you talk about the chance that the person who legally carries the gun getting shot because they are mistaken for the perpetrator. while that scenario could very well happen the chances are very remote....i know the chances of a guy walking into a school and doing that is also remote, but my point is that at least where i was trained (i dont know about anyone else) i was taught that if you need to use your firearm that you make it very clear that you are not the bad guy....whatever you need to do, most of the instructions included putting the gun away and making sure that people can see your hands. once the police arrive it is your responsibility as a gun owner that has a concealed carry license to make sure they know what has transpired.

the other topic i wanted to address was the wild west term.........
i live in st louis, missouri. the number one most dangerous city in the USA. i carry a handgun almost everywhere i go, and i believe that is something that i have earned by proving myself responsible enough to do so. not only have i taken the required classes and paid for the licenses, but i practice a MINIMUM of once a week. i have never even had to put my hand on my gun out of fear or discomfort. i carry it to protect my family and myself. when i come home the handgun goes into a wall safe along with my wifes .38 that she carries. if i need to defend my house i have a 20 ga shotgun that will do the job fine. the reason i have a shotgun at my house is that i am a responsible gun owner that has done my research and learned that if i loaded that 20 ga shotgun with #4 birdshot, it wont penetrate walls......it will only do damage to what is in the room with me.
that doesnt sound like the wild west does it? and st louis is about as close as you can get regarding shootings.



you do understand our obsession though, and that is something i need to commend you on.
since i was a little kid i heard stories about men like-daniel boone, jesse james, wild bill hickock, wyatt earp, buffalo bill cody, doc holiday and many others.....glorifying killing with thier guns. i dont know why jesse james who so clearly was a terrorist against the union in the civil war is made out to be a glorified bank robber......its just part of us. our country was started with the ability to defend ourselves with firearms. in this day and age it is highly unlikely that a country would invade this country but it has grown far beyond that.
when i was 12 my single mother bought me a .22 long rifle and took me to the shooting range to shoot. why?
because its almost a tradition in some parts of this country.

like i said, great post. i just hope you dont think the us is like the wild west.....thats only some places...like "The Hill". smile

---------------
since people cant seem to get it, just read....you will understand that this is an american issue that is literally ingrained in our society.
hate&discontent
USMC 0311 SEMPER FI
+69|6590|USA, MICHIGAN
still at it i see
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6596|The Gem Saloon
no one listens.....
they just spout what they think is going to work.
SteikeTa
Member
+153|6950|Norway/Norwegen/ Norge/Noruega

Parker wrote:

konfusion, you might have a point. however i have stated i dont know how many times in this thread what the issue is and some people still dont get it. i dont claim that every gun owner is responsible....but what this guy, and so many other in this thread are trying to say WONT WORK. i have stated in this thread that i am for FURTHER REGULATION of firearms in this country....NOT the european version of firearm BANS....that wont happen here.....in order to ban firearms, first we would need to disarm EVERY criminal. that wont happen......then you need to try and get every single firearm from citizens....that sure as hell wont happen.

since people dont understand i will repost what i believe the main issues are with the european style of firearms bans.

konfusion, thanks for the heads up.
steiketa this isnt the first time ive bumped heads with someone across the pond, and it sure as hell wont be the last. if i have offended you then i apologize, please read below from a different post to understand more about the issue with firearms in this country.




you seem to understand the issue that wouldnt allow a european type of gun control policy. i have a few things though...
you talk about the chance that the person who legally carries the gun getting shot because they are mistaken for the perpetrator. while that scenario could very well happen the chances are very remote....i know the chances of a guy walking into a school and doing that is also remote, but my point is that at least where i was trained (i dont know about anyone else) i was taught that if you need to use your firearm that you make it very clear that you are not the bad guy....whatever you need to do, most of the instructions included putting the gun away and making sure that people can see your hands. once the police arrive it is your responsibility as a gun owner that has a concealed carry license to make sure they know what has transpired.

the other topic i wanted to address was the wild west term.........
i live in st louis, missouri. the number one most dangerous city in the USA. i carry a handgun almost everywhere i go, and i believe that is something that i have earned by proving myself responsible enough to do so. not only have i taken the required classes and paid for the licenses, but i practice a MINIMUM of once a week. i have never even had to put my hand on my gun out of fear or discomfort. i carry it to protect my family and myself. when i come home the handgun goes into a wall safe along with my wifes .38 that she carries. if i need to defend my house i have a 20 ga shotgun that will do the job fine. the reason i have a shotgun at my house is that i am a responsible gun owner that has done my research and learned that if i loaded that 20 ga shotgun with #4 birdshot, it wont penetrate walls......it will only do damage to what is in the room with me.
that doesnt sound like the wild west does it? and st louis is about as close as you can get regarding shootings.



you do understand our obsession though, and that is something i need to commend you on.
since i was a little kid i heard stories about men like-daniel boone, jesse james, wild bill hickock, wyatt earp, buffalo bill cody, doc holiday and many others.....glorifying killing with thier guns. i dont know why jesse james who so clearly was a terrorist against the union in the civil war is made out to be a glorified bank robber......its just part of us. our country was started with the ability to defend ourselves with firearms. in this day and age it is highly unlikely that a country would invade this country but it has grown far beyond that.
when i was 12 my single mother bought me a .22 long rifle and took me to the shooting range to shoot. why?
because its almost a tradition in some parts of this country.

like i said, great post. i just hope you dont think the us is like the wild west.....thats only some places...like "The Hill". smile

---------------
since people cant seem to get it, just read....you will understand that this is an american issue that is literally ingrained in our society.
Damn it is amazing how different countries can be. Here not even the police carry guns. Just in what we would call extreme situations. I know police do so in most countries, even security guards. I remember one of the times I was traveling to Brazil. Saw a security guard at a mall carrying a gun. Got surprised. Did not expect that. Normal security guards. Here in Norway, they can't even carry pepper spray and/or tazer gun(not sure about that word)! There are huge differences. After reading a lot of the posts here, I understand your views and opinions and where you are coming from when saying it. I just do not agree. Have to admit, I did not know that you already could carry a concealed gun in USA. Is that just some states or did I misunderstand?

Anyway, debating with people from other nations is a learning experience. Bumping heads as you say hehe
I don't think of the USA as wild west, but I know and see that many do. So.... "The Hill"?? *Squinting" at the screen*
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6556
more gun restrictions = more crime. Just look and see.
bubbass
humble
+61|6771

SteikeTa wrote:

Damn it is amazing how different countries can be. Here not even the police carry guns. Just in what we would call extreme situations. I know police do so in most countries, even security guards. I remember one of the times I was traveling to Brazil. Saw a security guard at a mall carrying a gun. Got surprised. Did not expect that. Normal security guards. Here in Norway, they can't even carry pepper spray and/or tazer gun(not sure about that word)! There are huge differences. After reading a lot of the posts here, I understand your views and opinions and where you are coming from when saying it. I just do not agree. Have to admit, I did not know that you already could carry a concealed gun in USA. Is that just some states or did I misunderstand?

Anyway, debating with people from other nations is a learning experience. Bumping heads as you say hehe
I don't think of the USA as wild west, but I know and see that many do. So.... "The Hill"?? *Squinting" at the screen*
Yes, most states can carry a concealed weapon in the States. It takes a thorough background check and classes to be qualified. But, having your CCW just gives your more laws and guidelines to follow. I have mine and carry everywhere it's allowed.

Having your CCW doesn't give you the rights to walk around showing it off to people either. That's called brandishing and it's against the law. All the people that I know that CCW are responsible gun owners (I know, there are people out there that aren't) but if someone wants to be armed and dangerous, they're going to do it no matter what. With the flood of guns in America, it would be hard to stop all the gun related crime. But I feel more comfortable being able to have my guns to protect my family and myself. That's not the sole reason I have guns though. It's a great hobby and a nice way to spend the day outside. You'd be surprised at the events that go on regarding shooting and marksmanship.
hate&discontent
USMC 0311 SEMPER FI
+69|6590|USA, MICHIGAN
i'm tired of debating with people who think they know everything about America's problems and how to fix them, and they are not even American.  if you are not from the U.S. keep your nose out of our business, plain and simple.  i agree to disagree on the gun regulation topics.  i think i'm pretty much done posting on this thread, unless something really peaks my interest.  now if you want to talk guns, what is good, not so good, popular makes, models and calibers, i'm all ears.

Last edited by hate&discontent (2007-04-19 14:14:51)

bubbass
humble
+61|6771

hate&discontent wrote:

now if you want to talk guns, what is good, not so good, popular makes, models and calibers, i'm all ears.
I think we'd need a new thread for that.
hate&discontent
USMC 0311 SEMPER FI
+69|6590|USA, MICHIGAN
if someone starts one, pm me and let me know.  i love WEAPONS!!!
SteikeTa
Member
+153|6950|Norway/Norwegen/ Norge/Noruega

bubbass wrote:

hate&discontent wrote:

now if you want to talk guns, what is good, not so good, popular makes, models and calibers, i'm all ears.
I think we'd need a new thread for that.
Actually, I think there already exists a thread about that.

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