BF2S Forums Iraq is not Ready for Democracy: Time to Pull Out

I agree with you Serge, isolationism does not always seem palatable to many people but it's often the best thing in the long run. The middle East is a totally different world to ours and the US was foolish to think it could simply impose the American way of life on the Iraqi people. There isn't always an American struggling to get out of someone! I think many people in America and even the West in general find it impossible to believe that someone could actually not want or care for democracy.

Without foreign interference a genuine form of equilibrium and not an artificial one can be attained (eventually) but there will be bloodshed to achieve it unfortunately.

US leaves: People die.
US stays: People die.

So...yeah, why are we there?

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Sanjaya wrote:

US leaves: People die.
US stays: People die.

So...yeah, why are we there?

Because otherwise it would look like we didn't get anything for our $500 billion and lives of 3000 soldiers and limbs of 30,000 soldiers.  If we leave now, people might start to ask questions about why we lost so much for so little, but if we stay Bush and company have a 0.00001% chance to look like heroes instead.  It's Cheney's "1% Doctrine" in action.

Its wierd that we're being run by businessmen and get into this situation.  In a corporation, if you start a project and find out its losing money constantly and occaisionally kills your employees, you STOP THE PROGRAM.  You don't whine about all the money you wasted on it already, you stop throwing "good money after bad" and you eat your loss.  If the CEO of a company kept a project like that going, enriching the contractors the corporation paid to run the project, that CEO would be fired by the shareholders in a heartbeat.  That CEO obviously forgot who signs his paychecks.

Better leave now and cut your losses I think. Instead of staying another 5 years, with by that time a $1000+ billion bill, 6000 dead soldiers and 100.000+ wounded soldiers.
The situation will never improve there. That is one thing that is certain.

Step 1: Ask the leaders of our military in Iraq if they think they can win.  I don't know the answer to that because all I hear is the negativity from the media.  No reports of what's working or success in any form besides the discussions and emails that I have from guys who are or were over there. 

If the military leaders say yes,
Step 2: Give them anything and everything they need to lay waste to the enemy and let them do their job.  Take off the gloves and make war.   

If no,
Step 3: Let the Iraqis can spill their own blood while they figure this mess out.  I fully support our military, but if they don’t think they can win, let’s bring our sons/daughters and fathers/mothers home.  I don’t want to leave and give the insurgents what they want.  But in the end I guess I do have less stomach for the situation than the insurgents.  The region will likely descend further into chaos when we leave and Iran will no doubt expand its influence in the region. 

Step 4: Build a proper wall (reinforced concrete, electrified razor wire) all along our southern border, equip it with state of the art electronic surveillance, and expand the border patrol in manpower and firepower.  Cross our border illegally and we deport you in a body bag.  Period.  If you’re already here illegally just because you want a job, we’ll do a background check and if you have no criminal record in your home country or the US, you get to stay.  But you’re not a citizen until you go through the process like everyone else.  If you broke a law, sorry, bye bye. 

Step 5:  Drill in Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico and give the finger to OPEC.  Let them drown in their oil that we won’t buy anymore.

Step 6:  Expand nuclear power

Step 7:  When the world hollers they need help.  We stay home.  No more foreign aid that rarely ends up helping the people that need it.  No more US armed forces coming to the rescue.  Whenever we helped you before you pissed and moaned . . . now you’re SOL. 

That's my platform.  Stingray for President.

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Its wierd that we're being run by businessmen and get into this situation.  In a corporation, if you start a project and find out its losing money constantly and occaisionally kills your employees, you STOP THE PROGRAM.  You don't whine about all the money you wasted on it already, you stop throwing "good money after bad" and you eat your loss.  If the CEO of a company kept a project like that going, enriching the contractors the corporation paid to run the project, that CEO would be fired by the shareholders in a heartbeat.  That CEO obviously forgot who signs his paychecks.

Not that weird. Bush was mostly a failure as a businessman, supported only by investments from his father's friends.

Wikipedia wrote:

Bush returned to the oil industry, becoming a senior partner or chief executive officer of several ventures, such as Arbusto Energy,[20] Spectrum 7, and, later, Harken Energy.[21] These ventures suffered from the general decline of oil prices in the 1980s that had affected the industry and the regional economy. Additionally, questions of possible insider trading involving Harken have arisen, though the SEC's investigation of Bush concluded that he did not have enough insider information before his stock sale to warrant a case.

I got off that boat when it became evident that the government of Iraq was siding with the likes of Al Sadr.

Stingray24 wrote:

That's my platform.  Stingray for President.

You got my vote.
Back on topic, i think that we should continue to try and improve the situation, these things take time. But if the Iraqis can't appreciate what we're trying to do for them at all, then i say we leave, then they can sort their own problems. This would likely end up with one Iraqi left though.

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm sure lowing will be along with a solution any minute now Serge.

Nope Cam, I don't. I just feel whatever the solution is, it should not reflex weakness, appeasement, collaboration, negotiation, and submissivness toward such an enemy. Anything like this will be exploited to a damaging level by the terrorists. It is bad enough that the terrorists see us fighting each other over THEM more than we are actually fighting them. This is my problem. Unification by all countries against this bullshit is the way to defeat terrorism. No safe harbor for terrorists, no safe harbor for terrorists money.

Feel free to respond to this...................................................or not.

Pipe dream: "Unification by all countries against this bullshit is the way to defeat terrorism."

Given that not even half of your country believe in what you're talking about I fail to see how the rest of the world, who pretty much oppose the US stance completely on these issues, is even going to waste so much as a millisecond stopping to think about the futility of what you just printed.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-19 15:44:07)

Stingray24 wrote:

Step 5:  Drill in Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico and give the finger to OPEC.  Let them drown in their oil that we won’t buy anymore.

Step 6:  Expand nuclear power

Step 7:  When the world hollers they need help.  We stay home.  No more foreign aid that rarely ends up helping the people that need it.  No more US armed forces coming to the rescue.  Whenever we helped you before you pissed and moaned . . . now you’re SOL. 

That's my platform.  Stingray for President.

Drilling Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico will supply US energy needs for all of five minuets, then it's back to the arabs for more oil.

Great more government subsidies for an uneconomical power source (ie Nuclear energy), let alone the US still has no real solution to the waste.

US 'foreign aid"??? what the US isn't going to dump money into Israel anymore??? which is the majority of what the US calls "foreign aid". Actualy that could appease the arab/muslim terrorists more than anything else especially along with the isolationist policies you suggest... you'll give the terrorists everything they want.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm sure lowing will be along with a solution any minute now Serge.

Nope Cam, I don't. I just feel whatever the solution is, it should not reflex weakness, appeasement, collaboration, negotiation, and submissiveness toward such an enemy. Anything like this will be exploited to a damaging level by the terrorists. It is bad enough that the terrorists see us fighting each other over THEM more than we are actually fighting them. This is my problem. Unification by all countries against this bullshit is the way to defeat terrorism. No safe harbor for terrorists, no safe harbor for terrorists money.

Feel free to respond to this...................................................or not.

Pipe dream: "Unification by all countries against this bullshit is the way to defeat terrorism."

Given that not even half of your country believe in what you're talking about I fail to see how the rest of the world, who pretty much oppose the US stance completely on these issues, is even going to waste so much as a millisecond stopping to think about the futility of what you just printed.

I never said, it was reality, IMO, this is the only way to defeat terrorism. As long as they have a place to operate, and get financed, they will. All of the internal strife by the US IS FEEDING THE ENEMIES RESOLVE, and it is reprehensible.

Ya know, it is, however, as much as a reality that you suggest we pull out, leave the ME alone to decide its own destiny, and all will work itself out. As long as there are people, there will be disagreements. As long as there are disagreements there will be conflicts. As long as there are conflicts, there will be terrorism, unless this for of conflict resolution is shown to be unacceptable and ineffective BY EVERY NATION, it will continue.

sergeriver wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm sure lowing will be along with a solution any minute now Serge.

Nope Cam, I don't. I just feel whatever the solution is, it should not reflex weakness, appeasement, collaboration, negotiation, and submissivness toward such an enemy. Anything like this will be exploited to a damaging level by the terrorists. It is bad enough that the terrorists see us fighting each other over THEM more than we are actually fighting them. This is my problem. Unification by all countries against this bullshit is the way to defeat terrorism. No safe harbor for terrorists, no safe harbor for terrorists money.

Feel free to respond to this...................................................or not.

Sir we must call the League of Nations, the terrorists are back.

I am gunna miss you serge.

Ladies and gentlemen,

This is what always confuses me....did we go into Iraq to install a democracy?