=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6752|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth
“It’s in our constitution”

This falls flat on its face at the first hurdle as this is in an “Amendment”.  Any basic dictionary will tell you that means “a change to”.  So arguing that a decision made in the late 1790s is somehow ‘set in stone’ or ‘sacred’ is ridiculous as the right to bear arms has already broken this rule to be there in the first place. 

It is commonly accepted that the Bill of Rights was largely inspired by the English Bill Of Rights.  This formed the basis of laws we have in the UK today and include things like the right to petition the King/Queen etc.  However it also included these two: -

“Freedom for Protestants to carry arms for defence”
“Freedom from fines or forfeits without trial”

I’d like to see you try and carry a sawn-off shot gun around wearing a “Jesus Loves You” T-Shirt without a Police Gun Unit being called out to shoot your ass down.  As for the second one, well you don’t seriously think that we don’t have fines in the UK do you?

It is also obvious that there were a lot of things that were legal in 1791 that aren’t today, most notably slavery but you wouldn't find anyone arguing we should bring that back because of its traditional value.   As time goes on we learn more, adjust our morality, live in war and live in peace and so it follows that laws change to suit the current climate.  This is quite simple, obvious logic but the Pro-Gun brigade would have you believe it doesn’t apply to “their” law...sorry “constitution”......sorry “amendment”.


It is for self-defence.

Pretty much the same as the first argument said in a different way.  This comes from the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in the second amendment from the constitution.  Basically it says you can have them for defence but not for killing people.

“The citizen has at all times the right to keep arms of modern warfare, if without danger to others, and for purposes of training and efficiency in their use, but not such weapons as are only intended to be the instruments of private feuds or vengeance." Henry Campbell Black, Handbook of American Constitutional Law, 1895.

Here the good ol’ Americans invented the World’s first circular argument;  because if the aggressor in a feud didn’t have the same right to bear arms then the victim wouldn’t need one to defend against it.  It’s akin to saying you have the right to beat up your kid to prepare him for the bullying he’ll inevitably receive at school.

The bill's other purpose was to “keep a well-organised militia” in case the British and/or other nations tried to invade after the US’ independence.  Apart from the fact that just giving people guns doesn’t make them “well-organised”, it is obvious today that: -

1)    An invasion aint gonna happen any time soon.
2)     If it did and the aggressor did enough to defeat the US army, I’m sure it would make light work of anyone with a handgun.

Finally it is incongruent with the government’s position (and usually the pro-gunners’ also I suspect)  on the right of other countries to own nuclear arms.  If they thought the way they do on this as they do on the “Right to Keep and Bear Arms” that they religiously recite, then they should have no problem with Iran developing an A-Bomb for self-defence needs. 


It isn’t easy getting guns/there are limits on automatics etc

Apart from this argument being different from state to state (Virginia’s being one of the most lax as we all now know), the one about autos being illegal is the same as me saying “make all illicit drugs legal except heroin”.  Apart from being a fan of legalising cannabis I think most wouldn’t accept my suggestion.  On a side note,  the gun used in Virginia was a 9mm Pistol so you don’t need an automatic to go on mass killing sprees.

I’ve heard some pro-gunners complain in defence of their argument that where they live they had to wait a week before they could get their hands on a gun.  A week?  What a hardship that must have been having to wait a whole seven days.  I have certainly held grudges longer than week in my life but luckily I’m not crazy and don't live in the US.  I’d like the pro-gunners to compare their laws with the average developed country instead of whining about how tough they perceive their state’s to be vs (insert state with laxer laws here).

Would you legalise crack as long as there was a seven day waiting period?  Didn’t think so and if you’ve noticed the drug comparisons here and want to tell me I shouldn’t be comparing the use of drugs with the right to own guns, I’ll leave you to ponder this statistic,

Causes of death in USA, 2000
Guns: 29,000
Illicit use of drugs 17,000
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6731|Global Command
What part of " shall not be infringed " do you not understand?

Causes of death in USA, 2000
Guns: 29,000
Illicit use of drugs 17,000


How many of those deaths are the result of police shootings? Or do those not count?
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6752|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

ATG wrote:

What part of " shall not be infringed " do you not understand?

Causes of death in USA, 2000
Guns: 29,000
Illicit use of drugs 17,000


How many of those deaths are the result of police shootings? Or do those not count?
And what part of "evolution" don't you understand?  Do you believe every word in the bible because its says it the absolute truth?

Last edited by =OBS= EstebanRey (2007-04-17 13:22:11)

JG1567JG
Member
+110|6790|United States of America
Maybe someone else can enlighten me but wasn't the Bill of Rights added to the constitution before it was ratified?

ATG wrote:

How many of those deaths are the result of police shootings? Or do those not count?
That always pisses me off when I read in the paper how the police had to shoot and kill some deranged person the day before and then right after they tell you how the gun deaths have went up and the deranged person was the only one killed.

Last edited by JG1567JG (2007-04-17 13:27:09)

hate&discontent
USMC 0311 SEMPER FI
+69|6590|USA, MICHIGAN
i found this on google i think from 2005:

Medical malpractice is currently the third leading cause of death in the United States. Approximately 200,000 people in the United States die each year due to mistakes by medical professionals and prescription errors, according to a recent report from the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA). It was reported that 12,000 deaths a year result from unnecessary surgery - 7000 from medication errors in hospitals - 20,000 deaths are caused by other hospital errors - 80,000 deaths a year from hospital born infections and 106,000 deaths a year from non-error, adverse effects of medications.

hospitals kill more people that guns.
if i quoted this wrong, sorry.

Last edited by hate&discontent (2007-04-17 13:29:05)

=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6752|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

JG1567JG wrote:

Maybe someone else can enlighten me but wasn't the Bill of Rights added to the constitution before it was ratified?
From a famous "reliable" website
"The Constitution has a total of 27 amendments. The first ten, collectively known as the Bill of Rights, were ratified simultaneously. The following seventeen were ratified separately."

Besides, what does it matter my point was that they were added and hence the contitution changed.  I suppose the pro-gunners will now shift the goal posts by saying you can add but not take-away blah blah blah.
bob_6012
Resident M-14 fanatic
+59|6857|Lancaster Ohio, USA
Ok, so ya made a case. Let's first examine you. You are from England, have you ever been in the USA? Who are you to judge our laws? You believe marijuana should be legalized, however this is my own personal observation and mine alone. It is MY right to purchase a firearm if I so choose, so since the constitution was written over 200 years ago it's no longer applicable to today? I own 8 firearms, and I keep one of them at the ready in case I need it. Why is it a bullshit argument if I use it for self-defence, if someone is going to enter my place of residence illegally I'm going to use it for defence, not to kill them but it is a widely known fact that the sound of a pump action shotgun chambering a round is a great deterrent to anyone trying to break into a house. I am going to get a concealed and carry licence here in a month. Why you may ask. Because if I need that firearm just once then it was worth it, I'm not going to go out and kill someone but if I or any of my loved ones in my presence are threatened I will defend myself. And the last note, I don't care if there's a waiting period on guns, in my state there is not. If one has the money and is in good standing with the FBI then it is not hard to get a gun and I'm not sure why you even bothered to put it in here. Guns are not bad, it is irresponsible owners that create the problems. If they would keep their weapons locked up like the law says they should we wouldn't be having as big of a problem with the wrong people having weapons. If someone wants a firearm that badly they will do whatever they can to get one. So why should you punish the law abiding citizens because some assholes can't follow the law?

Last edited by bob_6012 (2007-04-17 13:30:21)

=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6752|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

hate&discontent wrote:

i found this on google i think from 2005:

Medical malpractice is currently the third leading cause of death in the United States. Approximately 200,000 people in the United States die each year due to mistakes by medical professionals and prescription errors, according to a recent report from the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA). It was reported that 12,000 deaths a year result from unnecessary surgery - 7000 from medication errors in hospitals - 20,000 deaths are caused by other hospital errors - 80,000 deaths a year from hospital born infections and 106,000 deaths a year from non-error, adverse effects of medications.

hospitals kill more people that guns.
if i quoted this wrong, sorry.
That makes gun deaths Ok then, phew
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6963

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

That makes gun deaths Ok then, phew
No, its called perspective.
hate&discontent
USMC 0311 SEMPER FI
+69|6590|USA, MICHIGAN
thank you usmarine2005
topal63
. . .
+533|6920

usmarine2005 wrote:

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

That makes gun deaths Ok then, phew
No, its called perspective.
Exactly! By looking at it from another perspective makes it OK, phew.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6963

topal63 wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

That makes gun deaths Ok then, phew
No, its called perspective.
Exactly! By looking at it from another perspective makes it OK, phew.
Oh Jesus fucking christ.
davidonbf2
Banned
+19|6424
I like my guns , ALL 6 of them and I will use 1 gun to protect the other 5 and my rights
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6731|Global Command

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

ATG wrote:

What part of " shall not be infringed " do you not understand?

Causes of death in USA, 2000
Guns: 29,000
Illicit use of drugs 17,000


How many of those deaths are the result of police shootings? Or do those not count?
And what part of "evolution" don't you understand?  Do you believe every word in the bible because its says it the absolute truth?
Honestly?

I could use the Bible to wipe my ass and sleep well at night.
BALTINS
ಠ_ಠ
+37|6688|Latvia

ATG wrote:

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

ATG wrote:

What part of " shall not be infringed " do you not understand?

Causes of death in USA, 2000
Guns: 29,000
Illicit use of drugs 17,000


How many of those deaths are the result of police shootings? Or do those not count?
And what part of "evolution" don't you understand?  Do you believe every word in the bible because its says it the absolute truth?
Honestly?

I could use the Bible to wipe my ass and sleep well at night.
Sure? The paper is not soo soft, i bet it would hurt...

CoronadoSEAL
pics or it didn't happen
+207|6720|USA
moved to: index >> "i've already made up my closed mind".
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6752|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

usmarine2005 wrote:

topal63 wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:


No, its called perspective.
Exactly! By looking at it from another perspective makes it OK, phew.
Oh Jesus fucking christ.
Let me spell this out for you, would you expect the wearing of a seatbelt to become optional just because the amount of people who die from not wearing one pales in comparison to the amount that die of heart attacks?
NemeSiS-Factor
Favorite Weapon? Pistol
+29|6872|Everett, WA, US

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

“It’s in our constitution”

This falls flat on its face at the first hurdle as this is in an “Amendment”.  Any basic dictionary will tell you that means “a change to”.  So arguing that a decision made in the late 1790s is somehow ‘set in stone’ or ‘sacred’ is ridiculous as the right to bear arms has already broken this rule to be there in the first place. 

It is commonly accepted that the Bill of Rights was largely inspired by the English Bill Of Rights.  This formed the basis of laws we have in the UK today and include things like the right to petition the King/Queen etc.  However it also included these two: -

“Freedom for Protestants to carry arms for defence”
“Freedom from fines or forfeits without trial”

I’d like to see you try and carry a sawn-off shot gun around wearing a “Jesus Loves You” T-Shirt without a Police Gun Unit being called out to shoot your ass down.  As for the second one, well you don’t seriously think that we don’t have fines in the UK do you?

It is also obvious that there were a lot of things that were legal in 1791 that aren’t today, most notably slavery but you wouldn't find anyone arguing we should bring that back because of its traditional value.   As time goes on we learn more, adjust our morality, live in war and live in peace and so it follows that laws change to suit the current climate.  This is quite simple, obvious logic but the Pro-Gun brigade would have you believe it doesn’t apply to “their” law...sorry “constitution”......sorry “amendment”.


It is for self-defence.

Pretty much the same as the first argument said in a different way.  This comes from the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in the second amendment from the constitution.  Basically it says you can have them for defence but not for killing people.

“The citizen has at all times the right to keep arms of modern warfare, if without danger to others, and for purposes of training and efficiency in their use, but not such weapons as are only intended to be the instruments of private feuds or vengeance." Henry Campbell Black, Handbook of American Constitutional Law, 1895.

Here the good ol’ Americans invented the World’s first circular argument;  because if the aggressor in a feud didn’t have the same right to bear arms then the victim wouldn’t need one to defend against it.  It’s akin to saying you have the right to beat up your kid to prepare him for the bullying he’ll inevitably receive at school.

The bill's other purpose was to “keep a well-organised militia” in case the British and/or other nations tried to invade after the US’ independence.  Apart from the fact that just giving people guns doesn’t make them “well-organised”, it is obvious today that: -

1)    An invasion aint gonna happen any time soon.
2)     If it did and the aggressor did enough to defeat the US army, I’m sure it would make light work of anyone with a handgun.

Finally it is incongruent with the government’s position (and usually the pro-gunners’ also I suspect)  on the right of other countries to own nuclear arms.  If they thought the way they do on this as they do on the “Right to Keep and Bear Arms” that they religiously recite, then they should have no problem with Iran developing an A-Bomb for self-defence needs. 


It isn’t easy getting guns/there are limits on automatics etc

Apart from this argument being different from state to state (Virginia’s being one of the most lax as we all now know), the one about autos being illegal is the same as me saying “make all illicit drugs legal except heroin”.  Apart from being a fan of legalising cannabis I think most wouldn’t accept my suggestion.  On a side note,  the gun used in Virginia was a 9mm Pistol so you don’t need an automatic to go on mass killing sprees.

I’ve heard some pro-gunners complain in defence of their argument that where they live they had to wait a week before they could get their hands on a gun.  A week?  What a hardship that must have been having to wait a whole seven days.  I have certainly held grudges longer than week in my life but luckily I’m not crazy and don't live in the US.  I’d like the pro-gunners to compare their laws with the average developed country instead of whining about how tough they perceive their state’s to be vs (insert state with laxer laws here).

Would you legalise crack as long as there was a seven day waiting period?  Didn’t think so and if you’ve noticed the drug comparisons here and want to tell me I shouldn’t be comparing the use of drugs with the right to own guns, I’ll leave you to ponder this statistic,

Causes of death in USA, 2000
Guns: 29,000
Illicit use of drugs 17,000
Well, it illegal for you to own a gun.  So jealous much?
TigerXtrm
Death by Indecency
+51|6570|Netherlands

There is nothing wrong with regulation laws on guns. Here in Holland, the country so well known for drug abuse and paid sex, guns are extremely illegal IF you don't have a permit to have one. Get a permit and you can have as many guns as you want (or as many as your permit allows). And whether or not you get a permit is based on your personal history. If you've ever been in jail, no permit. History of violence? No permit. Ect. Ect. In other words only people who are deemed responsible enough to own a gun can have one.
Now don't throw the argument 'some states in America also require permits' at me because you know just as well as I do that even a 4 year old with a fake ID can get a permit.

You need guns for your protection? Protection against who? The other lunatics who also own a gun and got their hands on it just as easily as you did? Protection against burglars? Better make sure he doesn't fall down and hit his head when you shoot him, he might sue you.

If you think having a gun in your night drawer makes you saver then what would be the harm in having a decent permit system in place to make sure only normal people can have guns? If you are so confident that you are responsible enough to handle it then you shouldn't be opposed to a rule like this. Instead everyone is shouting that guns should be completely legal and at the same time all these idiots are wondering where kids get the weapons to commit these school shootings. The people shouting for legality are the exact reason a permit rule should be in place because deep down these people know they wouldn't pass a permit background check, along with more then half of the American population.

Tiger
13rin
Member
+977|6681

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

Causes of death in USA, 2000
Guns: 29,000
Illicit use of drugs 17,000
Here is what happened in my state. http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm

Look at other statistics there.  You Este are wrong.


* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:


Florida United States
homicide rate              -36% -0.4%
firearm homicide rate   -37% +15%
handgun homicide rate -41% +24%
(3)

* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15)

* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7)

* As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. (7)

BOTTOM LINE>
Guns in the hands of lawful citizens work to reduce crime.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
JackerP
aka S.J.N.P.0717
+21|6480|Mo Val, Cali
I was watching Bush's address speech about Virgina Tech "today our nation grieves with those who have lost loved ones at Virginia Tech. We hold the victims in our hearts, we lift them up in our prays. And we ask a LOVING GOD..." You just reminded me of it when you mentioned the bible haha. I was feeling sad for them until I heard the last part and starting cracking up.

Alright it's in our constitution haha that's basically the final word right there. Yes guns are used in self-defense and as a deterrent. One thing that would have helped is if they had security guards who could use their pistol if necessary. On the Iran thing, if something was going to happen as in a war it would get sorted out before something did happen. The world isn't just going to let some country get bullied. If the U.S. army got destroyed chances are it was because of a Nuclear bomb and we'd all be dead so no need to worry about guns. On the other hand  if they just got destroyed and the U.S. is still okay, there are way more civilians than military. I think military only accounts for like .33% of the total population. So the other 99.66% could stand a  good chance to survive if they were equipped with guns. Yeah that 7 day waiting period is bullshit but I'm sure it at least helped some. Imagine how many people were planning mass murder too but over 7 days thought it through. Still should be extended. My brothers went to Oregon and they were telling me how if they went to a gun show they could have left with a gun that's crazy. Theres no reasonable reason to have an auto besides it being sweet haha yeah so they should be banned as in California they are or maybe it was just over a 20 or 30 bullet clip haha. Crack in no way can be helpful. There's always going to guns for police and military. No matter what if somebody is dead set on doing this there's going to be a way for them to accomplish it. I doubt police shootings account for even a small percentage of that. But that statistic doesn't say why they were killed. They could have been trying to rape someone, break into a house, rob something.
S3v3N
lolwut?
+685|6720|Montucky
In England, how many deaths are the result of stab wounds.


So should knives be outlawed?
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6731|Global Command

S3v3N wrote:

In England, how many deaths are the result of stab wounds.


So should knives be outlawed?
I'll give up my right to bear arms if you will coppa.
HeimdalX
Member
+37|6853
Imagine someone with a Hummer plowing through a crowded shopping mall. Should they ban cars too? You can use a lot of things to kill people. Didn't they ban the importation of swords in England because people got killed because of those too? You gonna ban kitchen knives next?

You can strangle, shoot, stab, etc. Gonna ban peoples hands next? Hack em off and attach some chopsticks to their arms? Its inherent in human nature to have emotions, and with emotions comes irrational thought and actions. Fuck it, lets all get lobotomy's and fix the entire problem.
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6752|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

bob_6012 wrote:

"Ok, so ya made a case. Let's first examine you. You are from England, have you ever been in the USA? Who are you to judge our laws?"

"Why is it a bullshit argument if I use it for self-defence, if someone is going to enter my place of residence illegally I'm going to use it for defence"

"Guns are not bad, it is irresponsible owners that create the problems. If they would keep their weapons locked up like the law says they should we wouldn't be having as big of a problem with the wrong people having weapons."
Can anyone else see the circular argument between quote 2 and 3?  If everyone obeyed the gun laws then you wouldn't need them as slef defense wouldn't be an issue; thus answering your first question from quote 2.

As for the first snippet, do you disagree witrh your governments "right" to interfere with Iraqi and Afghani issues, thought not but then Americans are allowed to interfere with others but woe betide anyone who dare make a criticism about them hey?

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