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2007-04-05 08:54:42
KylieTastic
Games, Girls, Guinness
+85|6743|Cambridge, UK

Sorry at work and haven't time to catch up, but this has always been a flawed argument.....

Atheists just do not believe there is a God (deity) full stop.

You cant actually believe in something just in case. This argument may apply to agnostics, but basically only work if you already believe there at least may be a God.



Also apart from that if you could just 'start to believe' you still have big problems...
1. So you think just saying you believe is a pass into heaven? I think you have to have obeyed the rules as well...
2. So you don't think an omnipotent God will not judge you badly if you don't really believe and take the 'value bet' and just say you do?
3. Don't you think an omnipotent forgiving loving God will let Atheists in (to heaven) that lives a virtuous life (and did so without believing that they had to do so just to escape hell - but just because is was the right thing to do)

If I'm going to take a bet it would be that: if it turns out I'm wrong and there is a God that judges people when they pass-on, that they will judge that I've lived good by others and sorry that I didn't pick up on any hints of your existence you left about. I would not like to be many of the so called believers I have known that forget the rules when it suits them. The only problem with this is if hes a vengeful god and wants the full lip-services in life then I'm just as likely to have picked the wrong religion anyway and still be damned.

Last edited by KylieTastic (2007-04-05 08:55:37)

2007-04-05 11:45:31
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6852

rawls2 wrote:

herrr_smity wrote:

rawls2 wrote:

How does beleiveing in God limit the fullness of my life. By not allowing me to kill, steal, cheat on my wife, fuck my brothers wife, etc. etc. If you need those things to live a "full" life then you are a sick fuck.
most people don't do that regardless of religion or ethnic heritage
Oh do they? Find the statistics for infedelity, divorce, murder, etc. Compare that with the stats from 60 years ago and see what you get. I say 60 because thats when religion was a good thing, in America anyways, not the horrible opium of the masses as you guys like to call it.
60 years ago it was considered the norm to have a mistress: that is, sex out of marriage, when in a marriage,  was considered standard.  Further, what if we go back to when not believing in God was considered taboo, and slavery was encouraged?

Besides which, many of the world's worst criminals have been devoutly religious.

Last edited by Bubbalo (2007-04-05 11:46:38)

2007-04-05 11:49:48
topal63
. . .
+533|7009

crimson_grunt wrote:

hmm deja vu
Maybe?

Or maybe it's more: deja voodoo!

herrr_smity wrote:

I believe that i am the center of the universe, i believe that i am Jesus christ, i believe that i am the rightful leader of the universe.
try to disprove it
Why would I try to disprove (your approximation of) the one spirtual truth all religious traditions attempt to convey in symbolic form?

herrr_smity wrote:

rawls2 wrote:

Ty wrote:

EEEH WRONG!
The person either believes in the statement and uses his life forever following the teachings of the Bible and having very limited enjoyment of life in order to get a posible shot as a sweet as afterlife.
OR
The person does not belive in this tripe and decides to live their life to the fullest realising that it's the only one they're gonna get.

Now God is meant to be omnipotent and cool right with power of forgiveness yadda yadda right?

Now if this second person was to be wrong wouldn't a cool forgiving God give him a sweet as afterlife anyway? I mean, what kind of super-good God would let people writhe in agony for eternity when they had the omnipotent power to save them right? If he did just sit by and do nothing, (remembering always "evil prospers when good people do nothing",) then he's a fucking hypocrite, and no-one likes a hypocritical God.

I could formulate a more soliud argument but i'm fucking drunk right now.
How does beleiveing in God limit the fullness of my life. By not allowing me to kill, steal, cheat on my wife, fuck my brothers wife, etc. etc. If you need those things to live a "full" life then you are a sick fuck.
most people don't do that regardless of religion or ethnic heritage
And many who do believe in this so-called concept of divine revelation, that happened in antiquity, do the very things you say they should not... as humans capable of failure, errors of personal judgment, etc - they (for lack of desire to choose other words) the faithful sin anyways - irregardless of the supposed God generated moral-code.

Statiscally atheists are under-represented in prisons (as they often in actuality SIN less than the FAITHFUL; or rather those that believe in God; supreme-being; or whatever label you ascribe).

Last edited by topal63 (2007-04-05 12:06:02)

2007-04-05 12:28:50
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6841|CH/BR - in UK

I am not going to read through 4 pages of flaming - or at least 2 >.>
At any rate:
A person can choose to have freedom in what to believe, not to believe that he is just a mere creation, believe in science and the progress of mankind instead of choosing to just go with the opportune belief.

Analogy:
A person can believe in a communist government's propaganda, taking in all that they say - after all, you get so many benefits if you do what they want, right? A good job, no torture and no being arrested - none of that. However, some people still choose to keep their own opinion, and not decide that they are part of a bigger plan, indeed to go against it.
(hope that made sense)

-konfusion
2007-04-05 12:33:29
too_money2007
Member
+145|6599|Keller, Tx
I think this guy plays on the Christian's Server I was banned from last year. REPENT!! REPENT!!!
2007-04-05 13:05:06
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6852
Kon: do yourself a favour and read the thread, you might be surprised by how little flaming there is.
2007-04-05 13:33:02
Skorpy-chan
Member
+127|6636|Twyford, UK

herrr_smity wrote:

Skorpy-chan wrote:

herrr_smity wrote:

I believe that i am the center of the universe, i believe that i am Jesus christ, i believe that i am the rightful leader of the universe.
try to disprove it
You're not the center of the universe.

There, that's disproved with the same logic you used. If you want me to do it scientifically, I can drop things next to you and prove that the earth emits far more force than you do.
but i have written it on the Internets therefore it must be true
So what disproves it in relation to my response? You're just repeating yourself.
2007-04-05 14:20:00
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6841|CH/BR - in UK

Bubbalo wrote:

Kon: do yourself a favour and read the thread, you might be surprised by how little flaming there is.
I was! But yeah, apart from that, my opinion stands

-konfusion
2007-04-06 01:37:07
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6841|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth
OK then,

"If righthandfork send me £1000 then he will go to heaven after his death"

It is impossible to prove this statement to be true or false and there are four possible outcomes.....

So will he send me the money just in case the story is true?  In fact I could have written any statement that can't be proven (how about "only Muslims go to heaven"?) but it doesn't mean you would act on any of them.

What Pascal's wager basically says is if you can't prove a negative then you must believe in the positive.  Does righthandfork believe in Unicorns, Leprechauns and the flying tea cup just because he can't disprove them?

I'm afraid you have shown yourself to be glass house living stone thrower with one, righthandfork as the whole theory is illogical itself.  After all, we all know that the rules of logic and science indicate that there must be some kind of basis (either in substance or in thought) for an assertion or else it must be denied.
2007-04-06 05:49:57
Milk.org
Bringing Sexy Back
+270|7067|UK
If you choose to beleive in a book with a talking snake and the hollywood ending where the the hero comes back to life in the end then so fucking be it.
2007-04-06 10:45:30
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7027|Salt Lake City

What I find most ironic about that first movie is the fact that Ted Haggard (SP?) was the one recently discredited and was removed/resigned from his position for using drugs and being a butt seckser.

Last edited by Agent_Dung_Bomb (2007-04-06 10:45:39)

2007-04-06 13:11:40
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7056|Cambridge (UK)

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

OK then,

"If righthandfork send me £1000 then he will go to heaven after his death"

It is impossible to prove this statement to be true or false and there are four possible outcomes.....
And they are?

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

So will he send me the money just in case the story is true?  In fact I could have written any statement that can't be proven (how about "only Muslims go to heaven"?) but it doesn't mean you would act on any of them.

What Pascal's wager basically says is if you can't prove a negative then you must believe in the positive.  Does righthandfork believe in Unicorns, Leprechauns and the flying tea cup just because he can't disprove them?
This is a variation of the prisoners dilemma and righthandfork is most likely to do what ever is of most benefit to him personally. That may or may not be to send you £1000.

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

I'm afraid you have shown yourself to be glass house living stone thrower with one, righthandfork as the whole theory is illogical itself.  After all, we all know that the rules of logic and science indicate that there must be some kind of basis (either in substance or in thought) for an assertion or else it must be denied.
No. Closed-mindedly stating that it is 'false' is just as wrong as closed-mindedly stating that it is 'true'. If we have no evidence either way, then all we can say is that we do not know whether the given statement is true or not.
2007-04-06 15:34:25
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6851

Milk.org wrote:

If you choose to believe in a book with a talking snake and the hollywood ending where the the hero comes back to life in the end then so fucking be it.
Actually the ending is more of a, "we didn't listen, the world came to a violent end, and only those who TRULY believed were saved." What I mean by truly believe is that they followed a life of righteousness not just a tatoo of Mary on their back. The world coming to a violent end can be interpreted by nuclear war, aids, etc.
2007-04-06 15:38:26
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|6963|Colorado
It is illogical to accept faith over reason.
2007-04-06 15:45:10
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6851
The most logical interpretation of religion is that it is a metaphor for living a good productive life. Take the bible for instance. It' filled with stories we all know are impossible to happen. But if you take them as metaphors or life lessons the book is dead on when it comes to right or wrong.
2007-04-06 16:04:35
gell1981
Member
+8|6669
Sorry to be blunt but what is this bollocks? Don't you think it is up to the indivdual as to what they believe? Personally i would rather believe in myself than something that doesn't exist? Like i say that is my opinion. Throughout the ages people have had to believe what they were told (each culture has their own beliefs) as they didn't know anything else? As time has gone on science has proved time and time again that there are more logical reasons as to how we have evolved to where we are today. Don't throw your religious weight around thinking what your saying is gospel!lol! Drives me up the wall. Why does it matter if someone chooses not to believe in something you do?? How do you justify something that has caused more bloodshed than anything else??? Riddle me that!! Im gonna stop ranting cos it could go on for days..
2007-04-06 16:11:39
Roger Lesboules
Ah ben tabarnak!
+316|6868|Abitibi-Temiscamingue. Québec!

Ty wrote:

EEEH WRONG!
The person either believes in the statement and uses his life forever following the teachings of the Bible and having very limited enjoyment of life in order to get a posible shot as a sweet as afterlife.
OR
The person does not belive in this tripe and decides to live their life to the fullest realising that it's the only one they're gonna get.

Now God is meant to be omnipotent and cool right with power of forgiveness yadda yadda right?

Now if this second person was to be wrong wouldn't a cool forgiving God give him a sweet as afterlife anyway? I mean, what kind of super-good God would let people writhe in agony for eternity when they had the omnipotent power to save them right? If he did just sit by and do nothing, (remembering always "evil prospers when good people do nothing",) then he's a fucking hypocrite, and no-one likes a hypocritical God.

I could formulate a more soliud argument but i'm fucking drunk right now.
You read my mind drunk buddy!...Now keep on drinking for "God" sake
2007-04-06 16:16:45
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6860|Portland, OR, USA
I refuse to believe in a religion that uses fear as a recruitment tactic. (Hell)  Any god so arrogant as to use fear to try to con me into "believing" in him isn't going to get any of my "faith".

What's in it for him?  The pleasure of seeing the people he created burn in "Hell"... Power trip

And if he does happen to exist, he'll get the pleasure of seeing my soul burn in eternal agony -- sounds like a great guy eh?
2007-04-08 02:48:10
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

righthandfork wrote:

Hi I am new to the forum, but from what I gather many of you have strong views on religion.  I believe in God because it is the only logical thing to do.  This is why…

Take this simple statement:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

1.  It is impossible to prove this statement true.
2.  It is impossible to prove this statement false.
3.  This statement has to be either true or false.

Since a person can choose to believe or not to believe, and since this statement has to be either true or false, there are only four possible outcomes:

1.  A person believes, the statement is true, and he attains eternal life.
2.  A person believes, the statement is false, and he ceases to exist.
3.  A person does not believe, the statement is true, and he is damned to hell.
4.  A person does not believe, the statement is false, and he ceases to exist.

If a person cannot prove this statement false, and he is logical, then he will choose to believe because that is his only chance for a favorable outcome. 

So deductive logic tells us that atheists are illogical unless they can prove that the statement above is false. 

Now obviously there are other religions out there that promise eternal life and it would be just as logical to believe in them, because as long as there is a chance of a positive outcome, the choice would be considered logical.  It seems the most logical choice would be to believe in as many religions as possible, so I guess I’ll have to concede that I’m not the most logical.  But my only point is that choosing to believe in something that can only lead to negative outcomes is illogical:)
You've touched on Pascal's Wager.  In all honesty, I regard it as no more than wishful thinking.

I really don't think some divine being would have such a limited and traditionalist view on life as most religions do.  The exclusivity of most religions seems to be a reflection of human failings in perception rather than any legitimate declaration of enlightenment.

Essentially, humans are using religion to grasp at things they can't possibly know.  For all I know, God could be a pink elephant that only "saves" people that like blue cheese.  Am I going to consider this a valid possibility for directing my life?  No. The same goes for  Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, and everyone else.

Believe what you want to, but I highly suggest using true logic as your guide.  You know, the kind of logic that doesn't make any supernatural assumptions.
2007-04-08 10:02:46
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

righthandfork wrote:

Hi I am new to the forum, but from what I gather many of you have strong views on religion.  I believe in God because it is the only logical thing to do.  This is why…

Take this simple statement:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

1.  It is impossible to prove this statement true.
2.  It is impossible to prove this statement false.
3.  This statement has to be either true or false.

Since a person can choose to believe or not to believe, and since this statement has to be either true or false, there are only four possible outcomes:

1.  A person believes, the statement is true, and he attains eternal life.
2.  A person believes, the statement is false, and he ceases to exist.
3.  A person does not believe, the statement is true, and he is damned to hell.
4.  A person does not believe, the statement is false, and he ceases to exist.

If a person cannot prove this statement false, and he is logical, then he will choose to believe because that is his only chance for a favorable outcome. 

So deductive logic tells us that atheists are illogical unless they can prove that the statement above is false. 

Now obviously there are other religions out there that promise eternal life and it would be just as logical to believe in them, because as long as there is a chance of a positive outcome, the choice would be considered logical.  It seems the most logical choice would be to believe in as many religions as possible, so I guess I’ll have to concede that I’m not the most logical.  But my only point is that choosing to believe in something that can only lead to negative outcomes is illogical:)
Hmmm, so an atheist HAS to PROVE something is false, and a believer only needs faith??? How the hell does that work??

How about this.

The Holy Trinity is "illogical":

The father the son and the holy spirit


You are father
You are the Son
You are the Holy Spirit

Only one can be true, LOGIC dictates this, but to PROVE this is true all you can throw at me is faith??? YOU are not charged with the burden of proof, that this is fact?? I am charged with the burden to prove that this is false?? Wow pretty convenient for your argument isn't it?
2007-04-08 10:25:43
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6891|132 and Bush


..lol
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-04-08 10:37:35
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina
Dane Cook is a good comedian.

Yeah, I hate it when atheists get so self-righteous.  It makes people like me look bad.  I'm an atheist, but when it comes down to it, I don't really know what's gonna happen after death anymore than anyone else.  Anything is possible, but I just go with likelihoods.

If someone tells me "god bless you", I thank them.  I actually do say gesundheit, but that's mostly because I just like the weird looks people get on their faces when I say it.... 
2007-04-08 10:40:53
Lost Hope
Lurker
+20|6618|Brussels, Belgium

Turquoise wrote:

Dane Cook is a good comedian.

Yeah, I hate it when atheists get so self-righteous.  It makes people like me look bad.  I'm an atheist, but when it comes down to it, I don't really know what's gonna happen after death anymore than anyone else.  Anything is possible, but I just go with likelihoods.

If someone tells me "god bless you", I thank them.  I actually do say gesundheit, but that's mostly because I just like the weird looks people get on their faces when I say it.... 
What "gesundheit" means ?

Care to explain please.
https://bf3s.com/sigs/9c9f8f6ff3579a4c711aa54bbb9e928ec0786003.png
2007-04-08 10:44:18
seymorebutts443
Ready for combat
+211|6886|Belchertown Massachusetts, USA
This entire thread can be sumed up with one phrase.

To prove the existence of something you must first need to see it to believe it.

God could or could not exist, thats why i'm halfway between atheism and one who believes in god. i still think he could exist but if he doesnt i still have something else, evolution. We can already prove how the earth started, several solid theories infact.
2007-04-08 10:47:17
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

Lost Hope wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Dane Cook is a good comedian.

Yeah, I hate it when atheists get so self-righteous.  It makes people like me look bad.  I'm an atheist, but when it comes down to it, I don't really know what's gonna happen after death anymore than anyone else.  Anything is possible, but I just go with likelihoods.

If someone tells me "god bless you", I thank them.  I actually do say gesundheit, but that's mostly because I just like the weird looks people get on their faces when I say it.... 
What "gesundheit" means ?

Care to explain please.
Gesundheit roughly translates to "to your health."  At least, that's what a friend of mine said who's studying German.

 

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