Some people like to help others because they think it's the right thing to do. Does a good deed have to be rewarded to be worth doing?
It's for the good of the people, not for the good of yourself.righthandfork wrote:
Why would it matter if you left your mark on the world if you no longer exist?ThomasMorgan wrote:
Basically it says that instead of worrying about whether or not there is a god, you should just live your life and try to make the world a better place. If there isn't a god, then you've left your mark on the world. If there is a god, he will most likely judge you on how you lived your life, not if you believed in him or not.righthandfork wrote:
On Wikipedia for "Pascal's Wager" they provide an explanation of "Atheist's Wager" which I don't understand. Can someone explain it in layman's terms for me?
...you don't really think that everything we have now was invented/built/cured/past-tense-verbed just so people could get into heaven, do you?
If a person cannot prove this statement false, and he is logical, then he will choose to live his life based on knowledge, not "belief".
But apart from the fundamentals of your thinking that are false, you're making yet another mistake. You think you can cheat your way into heaven by pretending to be a believer! You only choose to believe because you think that this is the only way to save your ass. Well news for you... looking out for your skin and working the odds isn't going to work with this god person. You must prove you're worthy to inherit the kingdom of heaven by helping your fellow man no matter the cost. Like a wise man sang once, "You cannot petition the lord with prayer!"
btw as far as Pascal's wager goes, my reason is shocked only when choosing to believe... maybe because its more reasonable that god does not exist...?
But apart from the fundamentals of your thinking that are false, you're making yet another mistake. You think you can cheat your way into heaven by pretending to be a believer! You only choose to believe because you think that this is the only way to save your ass. Well news for you... looking out for your skin and working the odds isn't going to work with this god person. You must prove you're worthy to inherit the kingdom of heaven by helping your fellow man no matter the cost. Like a wise man sang once, "You cannot petition the lord with prayer!"
btw as far as Pascal's wager goes, my reason is shocked only when choosing to believe... maybe because its more reasonable that god does not exist...?
Last edited by oug (2007-04-05 03:31:01)
ƒ³
Please take this question seriously, it is not meant to be mocking, but do atheists buy life insurance? The reason I ask is because if there is no afterlife then you can’t feel guilty for not providing for your family. Or I guess my real question is why would it be important for organic matter in a coffin to be remembered kindly by their family?
I guess that would be saying something about the 'Duality' of man.righthandfork wrote:
Why would it matter if you left your mark on the world if you no longer exist?ThomasMorgan wrote:
Basically it says that instead of worrying about whether or not there is a god, you should just live your life and try to make the world a better place. If there isn't a god, then you've left your mark on the world. If there is a god, he will most likely judge you on how you lived your life, not if you believed in him or not.righthandfork wrote:
On Wikipedia for "Pascal's Wager" they provide an explanation of "Atheist's Wager" which I don't understand. Can someone explain it in layman's terms for me?
Of course you can feel guilty... you don't have to be dead to feel guilt for something like that.righthandfork wrote:
Please take this question seriously, it is not meant to be mocking, but do atheists buy life insurance? The reason I ask is because if there is no afterlife then you can’t feel guilty for not providing for your family. Or I guess my real question is why would it be important for organic matter in a coffin to be remembered kindly by their family?
What a petty self-centered person you are! FOR OTHERS MAN!!!!!!righthandfork wrote:
Why would it matter if you left your mark on the world if you no longer exist?
ƒ³
Again, it's not about personal gain.righthandfork wrote:
Please take this question seriously, it is not meant to be mocking, but do atheists buy life insurance? The reason I ask is because if there is no afterlife then you can’t feel guilty for not providing for your family. Or I guess my real question is why would it be important for organic matter in a coffin to be remembered kindly by their family?
I have life insurance not because I would feel guilty in the afterlife if I didn't provide for my family but because I would feel guilty now, knowing that if I died, a major portion of their income would cease.
Life insurance is there so that your family can live comfortably and unimpeded after your death, not so it will remove guilt from the deceased.
That makes sense.
Exactly.ThomasMorgan wrote:
Again, it's not about personal gain.righthandfork wrote:
Please take this question seriously, it is not meant to be mocking, but do atheists buy life insurance? The reason I ask is because if there is no afterlife then you can’t feel guilty for not providing for your family. Or I guess my real question is why would it be important for organic matter in a coffin to be remembered kindly by their family?
I have life insurance not because I would feel guilty in the afterlife if I didn't provide for my family but because I would feel guilty now, knowing that if I died, a major portion of their income would cease.
Life insurance is there so that your family can live comfortably and unimpeded after your death, not so it will remove guilt from the deceased.
Using that train of thought then 'believers' wouldn't have to buy life insurance either because God would provide in such a circumstance.
Do you think atheists are robots or something? They care about their legacy when they are gone, irrespective of whether it is irrelevant. It is a very human thing to do - to care. They die in the knowledge that they provided for their family, enjoyed themselves, lived a full life and are leaving having given their children the best possible chance in life.righthandfork wrote:
Please take this question seriously, it is not meant to be mocking, but do atheists buy life insurance? The reason I ask is because if there is no afterlife then you can’t feel guilty for not providing for your family. Or I guess my real question is why would it be important for organic matter in a coffin to be remembered kindly by their family?
No I don't think atheists are robots, they just fascinate me. I guess I am one of those people that would probably do a lot of bad things at others' expense if I didn't believe there would be consequences. In a lot of ways your character must be stronger than mine.
I think a lot of people think that if you don't believe in a God you cannot be spiritual (one of the Oxford definitions for spiritual is: (of a person) not concerned with material or physical things). I love the world I'm in and love mankind for being such an amazing thing, I would love to be able leave some sort of mark on this world when I'm gone ...to help mankind in some small way when I'm gone. The special thing about being human is we can, if we choose, show incredible kindness to our fellow man - you don't need religion to be able to do this.
I am an atheist and have a strong sense of right and wrong, I feel bad if I do something that may hurt someone and feel good when I do something nice for someone. Your admittance that you would probably do more bad things if there were no consequences to be faced suggests your faith is not as true as you may think ...as a comparison when you are forgiven in confession are you not supposed to truly want forgiveness instead of cynically wanting it so as just to insure safe passage to Heaven? It sounds like you only follow the ten commandments so you will get into heaven rather than truly believing in the values that the 10 commandments advocates?righthandfork wrote:
No I don't think atheists are robots, they just fascinate me. I guess I am one of those people that would probably do a lot of bad things at others' expense if I didn't believe there would be consequences. In a lot of ways your character must be stronger than mine.
Last edited by Braddock (2007-04-05 03:52:59)
...so could it not be argued that you're not a genuinely good person and that you're only pretending to be one to try and fool god into letting you enter heaven?righthandfork wrote:
No I don't think atheists are robots, they just fascinate me. I guess I am one of those people that would probably do a lot of bad things at others' expense if I didn't believe there would be consequences. In a lot of ways your character must be stronger than mine.
Where be topal when you need him? Oh well. Just see link A in my sig.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
a) There are lots of religions
b) There's no evidence to say which of them is correct
c) By choosing a religion you will therefore almost certainly turn out to have chosen the wrong one
d) Athiests WILL choose to believe in a God if proof of God appears (ie. the skies part and a huge floating head of God tells everyone to stop killing each other and be nice, witnessed by the entire world etc.)
5) Choosing a particular religion to be true at random without any evidence to show which one is correct is illogical.
6) The only logical approach is the athiest approach, to assume they are all wrong until one of them comes up with definitive proof.
b) There's no evidence to say which of them is correct
c) By choosing a religion you will therefore almost certainly turn out to have chosen the wrong one
d) Athiests WILL choose to believe in a God if proof of God appears (ie. the skies part and a huge floating head of God tells everyone to stop killing each other and be nice, witnessed by the entire world etc.)
5) Choosing a particular religion to be true at random without any evidence to show which one is correct is illogical.
6) The only logical approach is the athiest approach, to assume they are all wrong until one of them comes up with definitive proof.
God is the number 1 teamkiller. Kick him pls.
Or maybe he's just the worst server admin ever
Or maybe he's just the worst server admin ever
Last edited by Freke1 (2007-04-05 03:51:25)
John 3:16?righthandfork wrote:
Hi I am new to the forum, but from what I gather many of you have strong views on religion. I believe in God because it is the only logical thing to do. This is why…
Take this simple statement:
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
1. It is impossible to prove this statement true.
2. It is impossible to prove this statement false.
3. This statement has to be either true or false.
It is possible to prove the statement false; by way of a bit of logic in the form of the classic "Argument from evil".
God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. That is to say, god can do anything, knows everything and is wholely good.
1.If god is omnipotent then god could have created a world in which evil does not exist.
2.If god is omniscient then god would have known how to create a world in which evil does not exist.
3.If god is omnibenevolent then god would have wanted to create a world in which evil does not exist.
4.Evil exists.
If there is a god, that god must be lacking at least one (perhaps more) of the three stated qualities. A god possessing all three of these qualities cannot exist. The christian god is purported to possess all three of these qualities, ergo the christian god (the god upon which your argument is based) does not exist.
A fancy way of saying "hedge your bets", it does nothing to prove god's existence.Since a person can choose to believe or not to believe, and since this statement has to be either true or false, there are only four possible outcomes:
1. A person believes, the statement is true, and he attains eternal life.
2. A person believes, the statement is false, and he ceases to exist.
3. A person does not believe, the statement is true, and he is damned to hell.
4. A person does not believe, the statement is false, and he ceases to exist.
If a person cannot prove this statement false, and he is logical, then he will choose to believe because that is his only chance for a favorable outcome.
So deductive logic tells us that atheists are illogical unless they can prove that the statement above is false.
Now heres the kicker; most religions aren't "compatible" with one another, so even if you do accept your initial argument, who do you believe?Now obviously there are other religions out there that promise eternal life and it would be just as logical to believe in them, because as long as there is a chance of a positive outcome, the choice would be considered logical. It seems the most logical choice would be to believe in as many religions as possible, so I guess I’ll have to concede that I’m not the most logical. But my only point is that choosing to believe in something that can only lead to negative outcomes is illogical:)
Fuck it! I'm supposed to be writing a philosophy of science essay right now not arguing about religion
Have you heard the joke?
In heaven the British are in charge of administration, the French are in charge of food, and the Germans are in charge of technology.
In hell, the British are in charge of food, the French are in charge of technology, and the Germans are in charge of administration:)
In heaven the British are in charge of administration, the French are in charge of food, and the Germans are in charge of technology.
In hell, the British are in charge of food, the French are in charge of technology, and the Germans are in charge of administration:)
...I fail to see the relevance to this topic.righthandfork wrote:
Have you heard the joke?
In heaven the British are in charge of administration, the French are in charge of food, and the Germans are in charge of technology.
In hell, the British are in charge of food, the French are in charge of technology, and the Germans are in charge of administration:)
Americans aren't included
Believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster...be touched by his noodly appendage.
In our heaven, we have a stripper factory and a beer volcano! Why? Because we said so.
So you can either:
1) Believe in FSM heaven, and get your free strippers and go swimming in beer for all eternity.
2) Believe in some crummy outdated concept of god and get "bliss", for whatever that's worth.
3) Not believe in God or the FSM, and get just the swimming in beer package when you die. No strippers without your pastafarian membership card.
Thank you, that is all.
In our heaven, we have a stripper factory and a beer volcano! Why? Because we said so.
So you can either:
1) Believe in FSM heaven, and get your free strippers and go swimming in beer for all eternity.
2) Believe in some crummy outdated concept of god and get "bliss", for whatever that's worth.
3) Not believe in God or the FSM, and get just the swimming in beer package when you die. No strippers without your pastafarian membership card.
Thank you, that is all.
Because they're bad at everything?righthandfork wrote:
Americans aren't included
Anyway, it means nothing. Your views are exceptionally narrow-minded, for one that claims to be so enlightened by God & such an obedient follower to 'his word'. Notice I say 'his word'. Anybody can say anything in the right way and people will believe it. Down through the ages, the message becomes diluted & twisted. The same scenario is played out by Hitler. Now, I am not calling your God Hitler, but you cannot ignore the same possibility.
Anyway, forget that - that was the whiskey talking.
Now I'm sober [enough]. I had to dig this old discussion out...
People are imperfect, yes, otherwise we'd all be gods - correct?
And, if you are to believe the Bible - & most other religious schools of teaching - we are created in God's image, no?
Well, then surely he is an imperfect being himself.
Therefore, either we are all Gods and nothing matter in our beliefs, or God doesn't exist and nothing matters in our beliefs.
Okay, I lied. The whiskey's talking there, too. That's pretty basic and I can't be bothered to explain more on it or argue more. Just think about it.
All the best,
Andy
Atheists don't necessarily believe there is no afterlife.righthandfork wrote:
Please take this question seriously, it is not meant to be mocking, but do atheists buy life insurance? The reason I ask is because if there is no afterlife then you can’t feel guilty for not providing for your family. Or I guess my real question is why would it be important for organic matter in a coffin to be remembered kindly by their family?
I think most people mix up atheism and agnosticism. Atheists negate the existence of a god, agnostics simply don't care about stuff nobody is able to proof, like a god. Believe or not to believe, it's not that simple.