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2007-04-04 10:40:32
Monkey Spanker
Show it to the nice monkey.
+284|6699|England
Just because you believe in a god or deity does not mean you have the right to say you are a moralistic person, it gives you the right to say my god makes me believe this is right or wrong, but to say to us atheists that you can not have any kind of moral judgement is incorrect, as most people at a young age my parents taught me their version of right and wrong and as i have got older i have adjusted the version of right and wrong that i learnt from my parents to what suits me in the world that i live in, which is a different version of right and wrong that any other member of this forum believes in.

In conclusion I'm not a religious clone that has to be told what to believe when to believe it because i have this very human thing called free will and for any religious person to say they have a free will is incorrect because as i said earlier you have to be told what to believe, you also have to worship your god/gods at set times (church, mosque, temple etc etc). How is that free will. Religion is as always a form of control it always has been and as the saying goes a leopard don't change its spots, rather than believing in a god believe in yourself and you will be amazed at what you can achieve in this wonder thing called life, and make your own choices don't be told by a false belief system how you should run your life be responsible for your own beliefs, that takes more courage than believing in a false religious system

Last edited by smuder201 (2007-04-04 10:41:57)

Quote of the year so far "Fifa 11 on the other hand... shiny things for mongos "-mtb0minime
https://bf3s.com/sigs/f30415b2d1cff840176cce816dc76d89a7929bb0.png
2007-04-04 10:45:52
Wreckognize
Member
+294|6932
So lemme get this straight: you're lambasting us Atheists for having no grounds on which to make our moral choices, yet you base your moral choices on a 2000 year old book of fables that has been rewritten and revised throughout history by countless authors with different agendas.  And on this aforementioned book, people have justified murder, genocide, racism, xenophobia, bigotry, intolerance, and more.  And you're bashing US?

Read Winnie the Pooh.  You'll get the same message with alot less bullshit.
2007-04-04 10:47:10
Paco_the_Insane
Phorum Phantom
+244|7091|Ohio
But when you're an overweight child in a society that demands perfection, your sense of right and wrong, fair and unfair will always be tragically skewed.
2007-04-04 10:54:15
HeavyMetalDave
Metal Godz
+107|7104|California
All living things have a physical form...

Nature knows right and wrong...

So does your heart...

Simple...
2007-04-04 10:54:34
KylieTastic
Games, Girls, Guinness
+85|6899|Cambridge, UK

Odd, we did have a period of lots of religious/atheist stuff in D&ST..... but I haven't noticed as much recently.... but somehow on the day you join you either have been reading all the past history or you created this as a new account just to hide who you are.

There are just as many who say "I'm right your wrong and by the way stfu" on both 'sides'. Rather than split it religious vs atheists I think its more 'reasonable people' vs bigots with religious and atheists in both sides.
2007-04-04 10:55:19
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,073|7218|PNW

HeavyMetalDave wrote:

All living things have a physical form...

Nature knows right and wrong...

So does your heart...

Simple...
My heart knows when it's pumping and will tell me when it isn't. I don't think it can do much else. If I was an elite ninja monk perhaps I could play a rhythm with it.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-04-04 10:56:00)

2007-04-04 10:58:10
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6966|Πάϊ

doublestuforeo wrote:

So, here is my question.  Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?
If you or any other believer think that you need a god over your head to punish and reward you for your actions then feel free to do so. You must acknowledge however that there are some of us who are in a sense superior as we do not need the fear of punishment or the promise of a reward in order to do what's right.

So looking at the bright light of religion, god is just a way to impose the necessary morals on those who cannot act in a moral fashion for themselves.
ƒ³
2007-04-04 11:01:14
TigerXtrm
Death by Indecency
+51|6815|Netherlands

doublestuforeo wrote:

For some time now, I have noticed that Atheists in this forum (both conservative and liberal, BF2 and 2142 lovers, British, American, Peruvian, and Australian) have made a habit of suggesting that a certain action or policy is "right" or "wrong," or "good" or "bad."

If you are an Atheist, I do not understand how you can logically believe in anything other than "moral relativism."  In a world of "moral relativism," anything morality based is 100% opinion, and means exactly nothing in any sort of logical reality.  In "moral relativism" there is no "true" "good" or "bad."

The only "truth" that is possibly graspable for Atheists is evolution; in which case, it is not only okay, but it is necessary that I kill you and rape your wife/girlfriend to pass on my more "powerful" seed.  I would guess that most of you aren't okay with that.

What I am suggesting, is that I don't understand why you Atheists feel you have the right to state anything more definitive than "I personally wouldn't do that."   I don't believe you have the grounds to suggest something is actually "right" or "wrong."

So, here is my question.  Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?
Yea thanks for generalizing mate. Do some research into something before shouting out to someone. Being athiest isn't about morals, it's about logical thinking. Can't see, can't touch, can't hear and can't smell = IT'S NOT THERE. We can make that sum, most morons in the world apparently can't. Doesn't have anything to do with morals. If you want to talk morals, try discussing that priest sticking his dick up some little boy's ass and getting away with it.

Tiger
2007-04-04 11:03:22
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6892|The Land of Scott Walker
The OP asked for those who consider themselves atheists to  explain what standard they use to determine right and wrong.  It's a fair philosophical question and I think most of you are dodging it and railing against religion instead.
2007-04-04 11:06:36
KylieTastic
Games, Girls, Guinness
+85|6899|Cambridge, UK

Stingray24 wrote:

The OP asked for those who consider themselves atheists to  explain what standard they use to determine right and wrong.  It's a fair philosophical question and I think most of you are dodging it and railing against religion instead.
No, If he had asked by what standard that would have been a fair question. He asked what right do they have to make moral judgements and in with the stuff before putting it into an agresive context
2007-04-04 11:16:27
topal63
. . .
+533|7165

KylieTastic wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

The OP asked for those who consider themselves atheists to  explain what standard they use to determine right and wrong.  It's a fair philosophical question and I think most of you are dodging it and railing against religion instead.
No, If he had asked by what standard that would have been a fair question. He asked what right do they have to make moral judgements and in with the stuff before putting it into an agresive context
Also, it is not a real or serious philosophical question... it is a weakly constructed form of a rhetorical question statement.

I properly strawmen it for effect:
You have no morals (which by the way, is just a label for socially accepted modes of conduct that change from time to time, place to place; that can involve: the food you should eat, the clothes you wear, whom you can marry, etc) and I do.

Since my moral conduct is based upon accepted belief (in God, as taught to me, in the suspension of disbelief as a child or childlike mind) and yours are different (not from God). You are immoral. My morals are from God (an unknown transcendent figment of a collective imagination, evolved over time). So - Lucy you got some explaining to do!

Last edited by topal63 (2007-04-06 09:43:58)

2007-04-04 11:18:55
KylieTastic
Games, Girls, Guinness
+85|6899|Cambridge, UK

doublestuforeo wrote:

What I am suggesting, is that I don't understand why you Atheists feel you have the right to state anything more definitive than "I personally wouldn't do that."   I don't believe you have the grounds to suggest something is actually "right" or "wrong."
So lets pick something most atheists and religious and agnostics believe in:  "murder is wrong"

So your saying the only reason you think it is wrong because your religion says so? That if your religion had failed to mention it you wouldn't? and you cant understand why all the atheists and agnostics arnt out killing people (and I guess raping to spread there seed as you say).

P.S. why do you feel you have the right to state anything more definitive than "I personally wouldn't do that."

Last edited by KylieTastic (2007-04-04 11:20:56)

2007-04-04 11:24:22
Wraith
Member
+30|7026

Stingray24 wrote:

The OP asked for those who consider themselves atheists to  explain what standard they use to determine right and wrong.  It's a fair philosophical question and I think most of you are dodging it and railing against religion instead.
Very well.  Religious or not, I consider that the only way to judge right and wrong is by applying the intelligence that we as a species has developed.  Only by applying intelligence, knowledge and common sense to a situation can we work out what is right and what is wrong.

Yes that does mostly fall under "opinion", but then as far as I can see, so are many of the standards of morality that religions follow.  For example, the idea of sex outside marriage being bad was not one of the ten commandments, and therefore nothing but a standard of morality imposed by the church leaders.  Likewise, the Jewish custom of wearing a head covering was first a local custom which became universally adopted.

Whether you consider our intelligence to be God given or merely a by-product of evolution, it is the only way to judge right and wrong (and it is through sharing that intelligence as a group that the major laws were written).

P.S. For what it's worth, I consider myself an agnostic rather than an atheist, but I still think my argument is a fair equivalent of the logic that would be used by an atheist.
2007-04-04 11:24:22
NemeSiS-Factor
Favorite Weapon? Pistol
+29|7117|Everett, WA, US

doublestuforeo wrote:

For some time now, I have noticed that Atheists in this forum (both conservative and liberal, BF2 and 2142 lovers, British, American, Peruvian, and Australian) have made a habit of suggesting that a certain action or policy is "right" or "wrong," or "good" or "bad."

If you are an Atheist, I do not understand how you can logically believe in anything other than "moral relativism."  In a world of "moral relativism," anything morality based is 100% opinion, and means exactly nothing in any sort of logical reality.  In "moral relativism" there is no "true" "good" or "bad."

The only "truth" that is possibly graspable for Atheists is evolution; in which case, it is not only okay, but it is necessary that I kill you and rape your wife/girlfriend to pass on my more "powerful" seed.  I would guess that most of you aren't okay with that.

What I am suggesting, is that I don't understand why you Atheists feel you have the right to state anything more definitive than "I personally wouldn't do that."   I don't believe you have the grounds to suggest something is actually "right" or "wrong."

So, here is my question.  Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?
If you believe in a religion, then you can believe in nothing more than 100% spoon-fed bull shit.  Whether its from the Bible, Koran, or Torah, none of it's real.  That's not my OPINION either, there is no facts AT ALL to confirm anything in any religion.  And there is a 'good' and 'bad' in morals.  Thats the friggin point in morals.  If the popular belief is that something is wrong, then it is.  That's it.

Also, if you believe in a god, then you don't even HAVE a more powerful seed, because your stupid.

Now let me ask YOU a question.  Why does some guy high on opium in some cave a two thousand years ago get to decide whats right and wrong for all Christians?  Yeah, I'm talking about the guy who made up the bible.  The guy posing as god.
2007-04-04 11:26:36
doublestuforeo
Banned
+9|6680
MY POST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION.  Read what I wrote, don't assume what I meant.  You dont know me.

As a religious person, I believe in an all powerful being who has expressed truthes that are eternal and unchangeable.  I believe that there are true morals, and that, no matter what my opinion is, these morals are still correct.  I believe that God, knowing all, has expressed what is truly "right" and "wrong."  I do not believe in moral relativism.  However, as I already stated, this has nothing to do with me.

You are all way to defensive to remain logical.  I may have worded my post in a way to seem hostile, but if you reread it, you will find it is logical, honest, and sucsinct.

Thank you Stingray24 for being able to read. +1
2007-04-04 11:27:06
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7002
Somebody shoot me. I don't wanna get involved in another 50-pager where I bang my head against the 'intransigent bible thumper' brick wall. For the record I don't find taking a code of morality off something some smelly and violent camel herders wrote thousands of years ago is something to shout about or something that is of much relevance in the modern world.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-04 11:28:06)

2007-04-04 11:27:41
heggs
Spamalamadingdong
+581|6835|New York
I counter your question with another: Do religious people have a right to determine what is right or wrong?

I see just as many so called 'religious' people doing the same things as 'atheists'. People are still people, and are flawed, regardless of whether they go to church every Sunday or not. Don't think that just because you're religious it makes you a better person than those that are not.
Remember Me As A Time Of Day
2007-04-04 11:30:16
topal63
. . .
+533|7165

doublestuforeo wrote:

MY POST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION.  Read what I wrote, don't assume what I meant.  You dont know me.

As a religious person, I believe in an all powerful being who has expressed truthes that are eternal and unchangeable.  I believe that there are true morals, and that, no matter what my opinion is, these morals are still correct.  I believe that God, knowing all, has expressed what is truly "right" and "wrong."  I do not believe in moral relativism.  However, as I already stated, this has nothing to do with me.

You are all way to defensive to remain logical.  I may have worded my post in a way to seem hostile, but if you reread it, you will find it is logical, honest, and sucsinct.

Thank you Stingray24 for being able to read. +1
-1 for me... your statements indicate to me, in this instance, that you are not being (any of these things --->): logical, spiritual, humble, deep or philosophical.

Last edited by topal63 (2007-04-04 11:34:17)

2007-04-04 11:34:45
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7002

doublestuforeo wrote:

MY POST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION.  Read what I wrote, don't assume what I meant.  You dont know me.

As a religious person, I believe in an all powerful being who has expressed truthes that are eternal and unchangeable.  I believe that there are true morals, and that, no matter what my opinion is, these morals are still correct.  I believe that God, knowing all, has expressed what is truly "right" and "wrong."  I do not believe in moral relativism.  However, as I already stated, this has nothing to do with me.

You are all way to defensive to remain logical.  I may have worded my post in a way to seem hostile, but if you reread it, you will find it is logical, honest, and sucsinct.

Thank you Stingray24 for being able to read. +1
Fuck it I'll get involved!

Two simple questions:

Do you believe homosexuals are evil, unnatural sinners?

Do you believe a woman should be stoned to death if she is raped but doesn't scream?
2007-04-04 11:34:57
Fen321
Member
+54|6944|Singularity

doublestuforeo wrote:

MY POST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION.  Read what I wrote, don't assume what I meant.  You dont know me.

As a religious person, I believe in an all powerful being who has expressed truthes that are eternal and unchangeable.  I believe that there are true morals, and that, no matter what my opinion is, these morals are still correct.  I believe that God, knowing all, has expressed what is truly "right" and "wrong."  I do not believe in moral relativism.  However, as I already stated, this has nothing to do with me.

You are all way to defensive to remain logical.  I may have worded my post in a way to seem hostile, but if you reread it, you will find it is logical, honest, and sucsinct.

Thank you Stingray24 for being able to read. +1
Alrighty then, name some of the eternal and unchangeable truths.

And notice how all the I's precede the believe -- this should help you understand how this moral relativism works.
2007-04-04 11:42:21
theelviscerator
Member
+19|6735
Where ever atheists are in power,  the people suffer.

Pretty moral stuff there huh?
2007-04-04 11:42:35
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6892|The Land of Scott Walker
To CPoe and topal:
It seems to me that the two of you are some of the most well-spoken members of our forum in general.  If I understand correctly, you consider yourselves atheist or agnostic.  Apologies if I am incorrect.  Surely between the two of you, there is a thoughtful response to the question at hand.  I'm genuinely interested in your answer.

Edit:
And Fen, now that you've joined the thread.

Last edited by Stingray24 (2007-04-04 11:43:22)

2007-04-04 11:45:27
doublestuforeo
Banned
+9|6680
THIS TOPIC HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION.  Can you guys even read?

I don't believe in moral relativism.  I can't see how Atheists can believe in anything but moral relativism.  However, this is not about me being right and you being wrong.

Here is the question I am posing, and I will post it again in as kind a way as possible, so I don't get everyone cying again.

On what grounds do Atheists feel they have the right to suggest an action or policy be "right" or "wrong?"
2007-04-04 11:49:18
Boomerjinks
Member
+301|7242|Denver, CO

doublestuforeo wrote:

Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?
It was a god-given right.... don't you dare fucking question it!

:p
2007-04-04 11:49:45
KylieTastic
Games, Girls, Guinness
+85|6899|Cambridge, UK

theelviscerator wrote:

Where ever atheists are in power,  the people suffer.

Pretty moral stuff there huh?
Back that up with examples? Personally I think that statement has no truth.

 

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