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2007-04-04 09:46:41
doublestuforeo
Banned
+9|6680
For some time now, I have noticed that Atheists in this forum (both conservative and liberal, BF2 and 2142 lovers, British, American, Peruvian, and Australian) have made a habit of suggesting that a certain action or policy is "right" or "wrong," or "good" or "bad."

If you are an Atheist, I do not understand how you can logically believe in anything other than "moral relativism."  In a world of "moral relativism," anything morality based is 100% opinion, and means exactly nothing in any sort of logical reality.  In "moral relativism" there is no "true" "good" or "bad."

The only "truth" that is possibly graspable for Atheists is evolution; in which case, it is not only okay, but it is necessary that I kill you and rape your wife/girlfriend to pass on my more "powerful" seed.  I would guess that most of you aren't okay with that.

What I am suggesting, is that I don't understand why you Atheists feel you have the right to state anything more definitive than "I personally wouldn't do that."   I don't believe you have the grounds to suggest something is actually "right" or "wrong."

So, here is my question.  Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?
2007-04-04 09:49:45
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7213|Cambridge (UK)

doublestuforeo wrote:

Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?
They have as much right as the religious. Religion is just opinion too.

<*cue anti-religious vs anti-atheist flame war*>

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2007-04-04 09:55:53)

2007-04-04 09:51:14
r2zoo
Knowledge is power, guard it well
+126|7043|Michigan, USA
Wonder, another religion flame war, thought we got rid of these...

Anyways, just becasue you have a religion, what gives you the right to says whats right or wrong, how does beleiving in god, or allah or whatever make your more entitled?(Catholic by the way)
2007-04-04 09:51:57
l41e
Member
+677|7095

Thank you for massively generalizing, distorting the opinions of others, presenting a ridiculously biased question, making irrelevant comparisons, and generally trying to impose your opinion on others without the hassle of an actual debate.
2007-04-04 09:54:42
herrr_smity
Member
+156|7075|space command ur anus
because morals isn't something that comes withe religion its a social adaptation, to make the tribe work better.
2007-04-04 09:56:46
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7028|SE London

doublestuforeo wrote:

For some time now, I have noticed that Atheists in this forum (both conservative and liberal, BF2 and 2142 lovers, British, American, Peruvian, and Australian) have made a habit of suggesting that a certain action or policy is "right" or "wrong," or "good" or "bad."

If you are an Atheist, I do not understand how you can logically believe in anything other than "moral relativism."  In a world of "moral relativism," anything morality based is 100% opinion, and means exactly nothing in any sort of logical reality.  In "moral relativism" there is no "true" "good" or "bad."

The only "truth" that is possibly graspable for Atheists is evolution; in which case, it is not only okay, but it is necessary that I kill you and rape your wife/girlfriend to pass on my more "powerful" seed.  I would guess that most of you aren't okay with that.

What I am suggesting, is that I don't understand why you Atheists feel you have the right to state anything more definitive than "I personally wouldn't do that."   I don't believe you have the grounds to suggest something is actually "right" or "wrong."

So, here is my question.  Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?


Philosophy and theology are not necessarily linked.

I completely reject the idea that religion has anything to do with the concepts of morality or ethical behaviour. These philosophies are a result of social evolution based upon human instinctual behaviour. I actually find such insinuations quite offensive/stupid.

Religion is not relevant to ethical or moral behaviour. Pantheistic religions such as those adopted by the Greeks did little to promote moral behaviour - yet the typical idea of ethics comes from Plato's work of the same name.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2007-04-04 09:57:30)

2007-04-04 09:58:18
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|7109|USA
So Atheists don't have morals? Thats the issue. People think if you don't follow Christianity, you don't have morals. Aetheists think its funny that people need a book to tell them to have morals.

My 2 cents.
2007-04-04 10:01:17
madmurre
I suspect something is amiss
+117|7157|Sweden
..... I´m an atheist and i believe in common sense and logic.

Edit: at the topic starter: Your the one who seems to lack moral here that´s what i get from your post

Last edited by madmurre (2007-04-04 10:05:26)

2007-04-04 10:02:17
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6737|Éire
[sarcasm]You're right, without God a person is totally incapable of forming valid opinions of what is right and what is wrong. These kind of values can only be learned through the inculcation of cryptic, ancient stories from texts that themselves may have been horribly mis-interpreted and mis-translated.

I mean it's not as though society itself provides a similar framework of values to the kind that any religion provides.[/sarcasm]

P.S: A religious persons idea of right and wrong is relative to their religious teachings ...in exactly the same way that an atheists sense of right and wrong is relative to the society he/she lives in.
2007-04-04 10:04:08
James-M-II
Member
+13|6815|ENGLAND

doublestuforeo wrote:

For some time now, I have noticed that Atheists in this forum (both conservative and liberal, BF2 and 2142 lovers, British, American, Peruvian, and Australian) have made a habit of suggesting that a certain action or policy is "right" or "wrong," or "good" or "bad."

If you are an Atheist, I do not understand how you can logically believe in anything other than "moral relativism."  In a world of "moral relativism," anything morality based is 100% opinion, and means exactly nothing in any sort of logical reality.  In "moral relativism" there is no "true" "good" or "bad."

The only "truth" that is possibly graspable for Atheists is evolution; in which case, it is not only okay, but it is necessary that I kill you and rape your wife/girlfriend to pass on my more "powerful" seed.  I would guess that most of you aren't okay with that.

What I am suggesting, is that I don't understand why you Atheists feel you have the right to state anything more definitive than "I personally wouldn't do that."   I don't believe you have the grounds to suggest something is actually "right" or "wrong."

So, here is my question.  Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?
what on earth are you smoking? youve got too much time on your hands buddy lol
2007-04-04 10:08:22
James-M-II
Member
+13|6815|ENGLAND

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

doublestuforeo wrote:

Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?
They have as much right as the religious. Religion is just opinion too.

<*cue anti-religious vs anti-atheist flame war*>
anyone religious says that athiests dont have the same rights, cant be very religious. i thought religious people were suppost to be calm nice people with big warm hearts, imo some of them seem to be a bit cuntish
2007-04-04 10:08:47
Bell
Frosties > Cornflakes
+362|6996|UK

James-M-II wrote:

doublestuforeo wrote:

For some time now, I have noticed that Atheists in this forum (both conservative and liberal, BF2 and 2142 lovers, British, American, Peruvian, and Australian) have made a habit of suggesting that a certain action or policy is "right" or "wrong," or "good" or "bad."

If you are an Atheist, I do not understand how you can logically believe in anything other than "moral relativism."  In a world of "moral relativism," anything morality based is 100% opinion, and means exactly nothing in any sort of logical reality.  In "moral relativism" there is no "true" "good" or "bad."

The only "truth" that is possibly graspable for Atheists is evolution; in which case, it is not only okay, but it is necessary that I kill you and rape your wife/girlfriend to pass on my more "powerful" seed.  I would guess that most of you aren't okay with that.

What I am suggesting, is that I don't understand why you Atheists feel you have the right to state anything more definitive than "I personally wouldn't do that."   I don't believe you have the grounds to suggest something is actually "right" or "wrong."

So, here is my question.  Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?
what on earth are you smoking? youve got too much time on your hands buddy lol :P
Agreed, found my self thinkin WTF for the fifth time today!

I think 'they' do, only to the extent, everyone does, no special treatment for a problem that does not actually exist, a relgious persons opinion is no less or more than an atheist's.  I think to the original posters question, why they think there rigth?  That is more an issue to do with personality, rather than what there religious belief (if any) is.

Martyn
2007-04-04 10:09:07
krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|7227|Great Brown North
what gives religious people the right to say im evil and will burn in hell for all eternity? your views are YOUR views, if everyone just kept it to themselves there would be a hell of alot less problems in this world >.<
2007-04-04 10:11:56
Tjasso
the "Commander"
+102|6970|the Netherlands

krazed wrote:

what gives religious people the right to say im evil and will burn in hell for all eternity? your views are YOUR views, if everyone just kept it to themselves there would be a hell of alot less problems in this world >.<
you got it !
2007-04-04 10:12:12
motherdear
Member
+25|7098|Denmark/Minnesota (depends)
religion is an ideology and so is atheismen, we might not have a ruleset like the religious got, but we got a set of norms that are the same almost all over the planet. then again depending on each area of the world we got less/more important area defined norms, but we all basically got the same norms that we all were raised into, that killing and raping is bad, that injustified violence is nothing good etc.

so we all got bigger and minor areas we want to promote, but those depend on how we were raised and our experience in life. religious policies are just another set of norms just set between 1000-3000 years ago and then passed on to our time (nothing wrong with that) and then sligtly modified on the way (not in the bible, quran etc.) but by the way it fits into our lifes and customs.

so if religion is just another set of norms then it is a ideology and therefore just as good as any atheist opinion.
2007-04-04 10:13:53
wanderlost
Member
+20|7001|Des Moines, IA
Let me preface this by saying that I'm not an atheist.  I am agnostic.

Many times, religion is nothing more than the expression of an individual's own personal beliefs about God or simply one's faith.  In other words when a person "joins a church" they are identifying with others that have similar beliefs, which makes them comfortable.  Atheists are people that do not believe in God - Atheism is their "religion", I'm not sure that they have a "church" - but there are probably groups of them that get together because they have common beliefs.  All of this is different than people who are agnostic - these are generally people that have faith but don't necessarily believe in going to church, or believe that you don't need to see a priest to be close to God.

What all of that means is that a person's morals don't always have anything to do with religion.  Muslim extremists, Child Molesting Catholic Priests, David Koresh - all of these people are/were religious, but you could argue that they have no morals.  In fact, they EXPLOITED religion in order to further their own agenda or satisfy their own sick urges.  So why do you think that just because a person is religious that they have a good sense of morals?  Why is it that if you don't believe in God that you are automatically ignorant of what's right or what's wrong? 

Right and wrong have more to do with socially accepted norms than they do God.  Morality is not a question for JUST a church.  Morality is a question for all of society.
2007-04-04 10:14:08
topal63
. . .
+533|7165
It almost seems deliberate - to join and post something idiotic & ABSURD? So we can rail against the obvious? Of course we know certain religious people think in these terms.
2007-04-04 10:15:34
An Enlarged Liver
Member
+35|7190|Backward Ass Kansas

doublestuforeo wrote:

For some time now, I have noticed that Atheists in this forum (both conservative and liberal, BF2 and 2142 lovers, British, American, Peruvian, and Australian) have made a habit of suggesting that a certain action or policy is "right" or "wrong," or "good" or "bad."

If you are an Atheist, I do not understand how you can logically believe in anything other than "moral relativism."  In a world of "moral relativism," anything morality based is 100% opinion, and means exactly nothing in any sort of logical reality.  In "moral relativism" there is no "true" "good" or "bad."

The only "truth" that is possibly graspable for Atheists is evolution; in which case, it is not only okay, but it is necessary that I kill you and rape your wife/girlfriend to pass on my more "powerful" seed.  I would guess that most of you aren't okay with that.

What I am suggesting, is that I don't understand why you Atheists feel you have the right to state anything more definitive than "I personally wouldn't do that."   I don't believe you have the grounds to suggest something is actually "right" or "wrong."

So, here is my question.  Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?
I know this is the serious section but really, are you just patronizing us or are you (which I find personally shocking) claiming the moral high ground? -  Shocking I know.
2007-04-04 10:18:33
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7213|Cambridge (UK)

topal63 wrote:

It almost seems deliberate - to join and post something idiotic & ABSURD? So we can rail against the obvious? Of course we know certain religious people think in these terms.
I didn't notice his registration date. And he starts the post with "For some time now" - I suppose he could have been lurking for some time. But that seems unlikely.

Now, isn't having multiple accounts against the forum rules?
2007-04-04 10:21:16
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7163
OMG teh blasphamies!
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2007-04-04 10:29:01
Ender2309
has joined the GOP
+470|7018|USA

doublestuforeo wrote:

For some time now, I have noticed that Atheists in this forum (both conservative and liberal, BF2 and 2142 lovers, British, American, Peruvian, and Australian) have made a habit of suggesting that a certain action or policy is "right" or "wrong," or "good" or "bad."

If you are an Atheist, I do not understand how you can logically believe in anything other than "moral relativism."  In a world of "moral relativism," anything morality based is 100% opinion, and means exactly nothing in any sort of logical reality.  In "moral relativism" there is no "true" "good" or "bad."

The only "truth" that is possibly graspable for Atheists is evolution; in which case, it is not only okay, but it is necessary that I kill you and rape your wife/girlfriend to pass on my more "powerful" seed.  I would guess that most of you aren't okay with that.

What I am suggesting, is that I don't understand why you Atheists feel you have the right to state anything more definitive than "I personally wouldn't do that."   I don't believe you have the grounds to suggest something is actually "right" or "wrong."

So, here is my question.  Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?
ask the muslims.

don't take that last part wrong, I'm merely making a point.

just because one is or isn't religious doesn't mean he has or doesn't have morals.

what about the priests molesting little boys?

or jihadists blowing up buildings?

i've just given you two cases of highly religious beings defying any sense of moral right and wrong.


on another note, you've completely gotten evolution wrong.

evolution is merely mutational changes for the better than enable a creature to outsurvive their peers.

what you were attempting to slander is natural selection, an act that only an idiot could deny (the strongest will live, the weakest die.)

the thing is, natural selection doesn't work that way at all. my "more powerful seed" will outlast yours, if it truly is such, so it really doesn't matter if you live or die. because i'll make more babies than you.


about moral relativism: shut up. now.

Morals DO NOT stem from God. they stem from us, from humanity.

ALL morals are based on opinion and are subject to interpretation. guess what? that guy that saved your life, the one that donated that kidney, even though he didn't have to; the 70 year old to jump in front of a bullet for you when you were 12; that doctor, the one who performed that kidney transplant, they were all athiest.

a strong religious person like you would never do any of that, because, well, God obviously doesn't want it; he decided that it was your time to go.


all morals are a sense of right and wrong, nice and evil. they're just a foundation upon which we build an idea of what is going to make people, angry, hurt, sad, unhappy, and so on. I don't need God to teach me that; because its not really morals when you're scared into them, is it?


let me pose a question for you, and I want you to be completely honest and open.

judging from your writing and your writing style, you're trying to beef up a bit, so to speak. you're straying out of your vocabularic comfort zone in an effort to sound better aged. in all honesty, are you older than fourteen?

if you wish to keep it a secret, you can just PM me your answer.
2007-04-04 10:31:14
topal63
. . .
+533|7165

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

topal63 wrote:

It almost seems deliberate - to join and post something idiotic & ABSURD? So we can rail against the obvious? Of course we know certain religious people think in these terms.
I didn't notice his registration date. And he starts the post with "For some time now" - I suppose he could have been lurking for some time. But that seems unlikely.

Now, isn't having multiple accounts against the forum rules?
I didn't check the rules, I personally think it’s sort-of OK... I guess, I don’t really care.

I think Cyrus the Virus is CameronPoes alter ego, for sarcastic humor effect.

As far as ATG, I have suspicions about theElviscreator, but could be wrong.

This post might be a lurker stepping into the light - who knows?

Also consider this (another post from another thread); a clear contradiction of personal values, ethics, worlview, etc - in reference to this Atheism has no grounds thread.

doublestuforeo wrote:

Less government.  Less taxes, fewer laws, less intrusion, less welfare.

It goes hand in hand with capitalism and survival of the fittest.  It may seem heartless, but in the end, it is better for everyone... even the poor.  e.g. compare the poor in America to the poor in Brazil.
&

doublestuforeo wrote:

The only "truth" that is possibly graspable for Atheists is evolution; in which case, it is not only okay, but it is necessary that I kill you and rape your wife/girlfriend to pass on my more "powerful" seed.  I would guess that most of you aren't okay with that....

... So, here is my question.  Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?

Last edited by topal63 (2007-04-04 14:35:48)

2007-04-04 10:31:52
RoosterCantrell
Goodbye :)
+399|6927|Somewhere else

doublestuforeo wrote:

Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?
ON the same grounds that a highly religeous man goes and kills serveral people becausehe judged it as god's will.   Moral judgements don't have to be based upon religeon, it's based on personal belief.  Not religeous believe per se, but belief in right or wrong.

Technically, anyone is free to make ANY choice or judgement, the only thing holding them back is thier beliefs, religeous or otherwise.  Since a judemnet is founded on belief, you can catagorize religeon as a belief.

The only other governing factor of judgemnts or actions, is consequences.   If you are athiest, you fear no punishment by your god, but you may fear Bruno your new cell mate who has a sixteen inch Penis and loves your "cute litle ass".

My retort to you would be,  what makes you think you have more of a right to judge just because you believe in some all powerful invisble man?
2007-04-04 10:32:42
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,073|7219|PNW

doublestuforeo wrote:

So, here is my question.  Do Atheists have the right to make moral judgements?  And if so, on what grounds?
Yes, because morality has a direct line to social quality.
2007-04-04 10:37:32
mikeyb118
Evil Overlord
+76|7045|S.C.

k30dxedle wrote:

Thank you for massively generalizing, distorting the opinions of others, presenting a ridiculously biased question, making irrelevant comparisons, and generally trying to impose your opinion on others without the hassle of an actual debate.

 

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