BF2S Forums Free Speech vs. Flag Burning

i agree.  i think you should have the right to express the view that you don't like america.  however, i also think people who are pissed about america have the right to either get the fuck out or do something more constructive than just burning a flag.  yes, you have the right to do it.  i think it makes you a stupid asshole, though.  not because you're burning the flag, but because you're complaining without offering anything constructive.

Never have seen it as an expression of free speech, but more as at least a violation of some arson law or something. Normally, people will display their flags on what---July 4th and Flag Day? Apparently, the national flag is not symbolic enough of the nation to respect. I don't really care when foreigners do it, but when an American citizen is demolishing a symbol of the very country itself, that burns my bacon. Have some pride in your country, year-round at that. It means more to some than a wad of cloth that identifies a country.

Actions are just as good

Rick Monday

To steal a decent quention on flag burning from The West Wing...

Is flag burning actually something that actually happens enough in America for it to be worth everyone caring about? I've seen plenty of American flags on fire, but as none of them were being burned in America, by Americans then any laws will be useless.

Or am I wrong? Are there loads of people running around the USA with flags and matches, and do people really care if they see a flag on fire? I really don't know. Is flag buring really that much of a thing in America?

It reminds me alot of the ban on hunting that went on in the UK where vast numbers of people protested a whole lot, politicians argued a whole lot, and lawyers got paid a whole lot over such a pointlessly trivial matter of a few foxes being killed. Personally I'm against fox hunting, but surely there are more important things for hundreds of thousands of people and the government to be doing? I couldn't fathom how either side could drum up enough energy to care so much over something that seemed so utterly irrelevant to me.

Last edited by PureFodder (2007-04-02 20:28:09)

Kmarion wrote:

It is freedom of Expression which the Supreme court now groups with freedom of speech. I may not agree with it but I think it is their right to do so. However, if you choose to do it you are also held responsible for the results. If you are doing something intentionally to get a hateful reaction/incite riots then your freedoms could be infringing on another persons. Free speech should bear at least some shred of responsibility.

True...  but to counter this, I would argue it's equally as silly for Americans to react violently to flag burning as it is for Muslims to react violently to Mohammed cartoons.

This is another admitted hypocritical issue I suffer from. Someone burning the US flag does nothing to hinder me and my life, however, I would be lying if I said I did not care, or it did not piss me off. I guess because they are burning the very symbol of a nation that has fought for their freedom, to ,well, burn the flag.

Irony can be a bitch sometimes.

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

It is freedom of Expression which the Supreme court now groups with freedom of speech. I may not agree with it but I think it is their right to do so. However, if you choose to do it you are also held responsible for the results. If you are doing something intentionally to get a hateful reaction/incite riots then your freedoms could be infringing on another persons. Free speech should bear at least some shred of responsibility.

True...  but to counter this, I would argue it's equally as silly for Americans to react violently to flag burning as it is for Muslims to react violently to Mohammed cartoons.

I was speaking more in terms of the totally innocent. Not necessarily the people reacting to the flag burning. The innocent business's the get looted when riots occur... etc. The law I believe holds the original group liable for any results that happen because of their demonstration (I think). Another example is from a thread we had here a couple days ago involving freedom of expression. Where the Americans hung an (Mock)American soldier in the streets. You have to use good judgment when you do these acts. If there was a kid watching that and they lost a parent in the war seeing something like that could cause serious emotional problems/distress/nightmares. My opinion is do what ever the hell you want, just don't step on people when you do it.

Well, I hate to tell you this, but under that logic, we should ban all cartoons of Mohammed, because some crazy extremist might riot or blow up something after seeing one published.

Personally, I think we should hold the rioters themselves responsible.  If you loot something, you should have to deal with the consequences, regardless of the provocation.  Why punish the inciter, if the person committing the crime is someone else?

The general message should be, don't be a sensitive dumbfuck.  Harden yourself to the point of not being able to be offended.

Kmarion wrote:

I speak only to as what the law is. Again I'm not disputing people should not offend people (Let's not forget where the video came from..lol). No one has the right not to be offended. I'm talking about when people start something that gets out of control, the ones that have absolutely no consideration for the innocents that surround them. Freedom of speech does not give you a free ticket to disregard common sense or judgement. As a civilized society you must still act accordingly. By that I am not saying worry about offending people. Fuck that. I would not ever wish to silence anyone or to kill the idea of free expression. I think one of our greatest threats to free speech is Political correctness.

In all practicality, I agree.  Admittedly, I'm not going to burn a flag mostly because I don't want to get my ass kicked.  I just like to point out the hypocrisies and stupidity of society.  Of course, it's not just the American society I like to mock -- the Middle East provides hours of material to ridicule.

Last edited by Turquoise (2007-04-02 21:09:29)

Weird thing is, if a group of Americans got together and burned the Koran, there would be a riot and call for apologies from the arab community.  Yet I do not here much from them when our flag is burned.

DesertFox423 wrote:

Actions are just as good

Rick Monday

Bravo.  Shoulda kicked the guy in the nuts on the way by.

Drakef wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

Weird thing is, if a group of Americans got together and burned the Koran, there would be a riot and call for apologies from the arab community.  Yet I do not here much from them when our flag is burned.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it, you want to turn this thread into something anti-Islamic, pro-American. Perhaps Americans simply do not value their flag as much as Muslims value their Koran.

Regarding the flag (as in the original topic), you can burn it if you want in my opinion. Freedom, eh?

If valuing something leads you to acting violent over an offense, then you've crossed the line of "value" into obsession.  Americans obsess over the flag, but many Muslims obsess even more over their religion.  People should be more rational and easygoing.

Stingray24 wrote:

I propose an amendment.  Anyone can burn the flag as long as they go a round with a veteran afterward.  Problem solved.  I suggest they not burn one around a Marine.

Sure...  Can we add that anyone can burn the Quran, but they have to go a round with a fundamentalist Muslim?

Last edited by Turquoise (2007-04-02 21:24:41)