Blehm98
conservative hatemonger
+150|6910|meh-land
interesting....  USA still has far more pollution per capita, but we're still more efficient overall compared to how much we do.  But...

BEIJING/LONDON (Reuters) - China is on course to overtake the United States this year as the world's biggest carbon emitter, estimates based on Chinese energy data show, potentially pressuring Beijing to take more action on climate change.

China's emissions rose by some 10 percent in 2005, a senior U.S. scientist estimated, while Beijing data shows fuel consumption rose more than 9 percent in 2006, suggesting China would easily outstrip the U.S. this year, long before forecasts.

Taking the top spot would focus pressure on China to do more to brake emissions as part of world talks on extending the United Nations' Kyoto Protocol on global warming beyond 2012.

Thirty five developed nations have agreed to cut emissions under Kyoto and they want others -- especially the United States and China -- to do more.

"It looks likely to me that China will pass the United States this year," said Gregg Marland, a senior staff scientist at the U.S. Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (CDIAC), which supplies data to governments, researchers and non-governmental organizations worldwide.

"There's a very high likelihood they'll pass them in 2007."

Carbon dioxide (CO2) is produced by burning fossil fuels like coal, oil and gas for heat, power and transport. Most scientists say it is a key contributor to global warming.

Marland used fossil fuel consumption data from oil company BP to calculate China's CO2 emissions in 2005 at 5.3 billion tonnes, versus 5.9 billion for the U.S., with respective growth in 2005 of 10.5 percent and less than 0.1 percent.

In 2006 Chinese fuel consumption rose 9.3 percent to the equivalent of 2.4 billion tonnes of coal that year, the deputy head of the office that advises China on energy policy, Xu Dingming, said on Thursday.

This was faster than BP's estimate of a 9 percent rise in China's oil, gas and coal consumption in 2005, to 1.45 billion tonnes of oil equivalent.

The International Energy Agency (IEA), which advises 26 rich nations, had already said last November that on current trends China would overtake the United States as the world's biggest carbon emitter before 2010.

China's Office of the National Coordination Committee on Climate Change said it could not comment on either forecast as it did not have a reliable estimate of the country's emissions.

"These figures are very complicated -- we don't have an estimate of CO2 for such a recent date," said an official who declined to be named. "We have just set in motion our national reporting plan... but it will not be done for two or three years."

US CITIZENS STILL TOP EMITTERS

U.N. data for 2003 put the U.S. top with 23 percent of world carbon dioxide emissions and China second on 16.5 percent. But U.S. individuals were far bigger emitters, at 20 tonnes per capita against China's 3.2 tonnes and a world average of 3.7.

China argues that wealthy nations are responsible for most of the greenhouse gases already in the atmosphere and should lead the way in cutting emissions.

And much of the growth in China's emissions is to produce goods consumed in the West, raising ethical questions over who bears responsibility for those emissions.

Higher economic growth and fuel use translates into higher emissions, particularly in China, which gets around 70 percent of its energy from coal, the highest carbon-emitting fuel.

CDIAC's 2004 emissions estimates, based on BP data, closely matched the IEA's estimates for the same year -- reached using its own energy data and U.N. emissions calculation methods, strengthening the reliability of the BP data, Marland said.

He estimated a plus or minus 15 to 20 percent error in the Chinese data versus a possible 5 percent U.S. error margin.

China's rapid growth in carbon emissions is threatening to outweigh efforts by the European Union and others to tackle climate change -- EU leaders said earlier this month they would cut the bloc's greenhouse gases by at least a fifth by 2020.

But China between now and 2015 will build power generating capacity equal to the entire existing capacity in the whole of the European Union, the IEA estimates.

China's growth has been fueled largely by burning coal, and it is still building new power plants at an unprecedented rate. Last year alone it added around 100 gigawatts of new generators, approaching France's entire capacity, most of them coal-burning.

A United Nations panel of climate scientists predicted last month a "best estimate" that temperatures would rise by 1.8 to 4.0 Celsius (3.2 to 7.8 Fahrenheit) this century, blaming mankind's emissions of greenhouse gases like CO2.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID … 1CA54F0332
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7213|UK
Yet again... USA will still have something like 9x higher CO2 emissions per capita, China has a much large population to look after thus obviously their CO2 emissions will be higher.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6976|Global Command
So they get a pass?


Death to America, right?
Blehm98
conservative hatemonger
+150|6910|meh-land
Yes of course, but china is far less more caring about being efficient.  Most of china's energy is produced through burning coal, whereas american produces much more of its energy through oil, and does their best to keep the smokestacks environmentally friendly.  the USA holds a huge amount of power, and a huge place in the world economy, so it makes sense we pollute.  China on the other hand does nothing to be efficient whatsoever.  If they tried to be efficient, however, your argument would be quite reasonable and sound



now the problem is, what if china refuses to obey the kyoto protocol?  What will the world do?  that, i think, is an important question we must ask ourselves for the next few years as china becomes more and more powerful
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7122|Canberra, AUS
Well...

All the more reason we need a new 'Kyoto' before 2012. A decent one, too.

And for goodness sake stop bloody categorising them as a developing country. That's what's letting do anything and everything.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7048|132 and Bush

ATG wrote:

So they get a pass?


Death to America, right?
[sarcasm]Co2 only has an impact "per capita". Doesn't matter where the majority of it comes from don't you know.[/sarcasm]

Now that is putting politics over science.

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-03-23 20:59:43)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7213|UK

Kmarion wrote:

ATG wrote:

So they get a pass?


Death to America, right?
[sarcasm]Co2 only has an impact "per capita". Doesn't matter where the majority of it comes from don't you know.[/sarcasm]

Now that is putting politics over science.
True but ever person deserves the same rights, therefore everyone should be able to use the same amount of CO2 without having to feel guilty.
Blehm98
conservative hatemonger
+150|6910|meh-land
Higher economic growth and fuel use translates into higher emissions, particularly in China, which gets around 70 percent of its energy from coal, the highest carbon-emitting fuel.
that is hte one reason that argument is faulty, as i said above, just this time i got a quote

the united states works to be efficient yet maintain its very important place in the world economy
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6976|Global Command

Vilham wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

ATG wrote:

So they get a pass?


Death to America, right?
[sarcasm]Co2 only has an impact "per capita". Doesn't matter where the majority of it comes from don't you know.[/sarcasm]

Now that is putting politics over science.
True but ever person deserves the same rights, therefore everyone should be able to use the same amount of CO2 without having to feel guilty.
And everyone should have the same income. Same health care. Same retirement.

Further, should liberals win, musical talent shall now become a RIGHT.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7122|Canberra, AUS

ATG wrote:

Further, should liberals win, musical talent shall now become a RIGHT.
That would truly be 1337
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7213|UK

Blehm98 wrote:

Higher economic growth and fuel use translates into higher emissions, particularly in China, which gets around 70 percent of its energy from coal, the highest carbon-emitting fuel.
that is hte one reason that argument is faulty, as i said above, just this time i got a quote

the united states works to be efficient yet maintain its very important place in the world economy
and yet the US is NOT efficient, it manages to match the output of a country with 10x more people. How can you even consider that as efficient.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7122|Canberra, AUS

Vilham wrote:

Blehm98 wrote:

Higher economic growth and fuel use translates into higher emissions, particularly in China, which gets around 70 percent of its energy from coal, the highest carbon-emitting fuel.
that is hte one reason that argument is faulty, as i said above, just this time i got a quote

the united states works to be efficient yet maintain its very important place in the world economy
and yet the US is NOT efficient, it manages to match the output of a country with 10x more people. How can you even consider that as efficient.
10x? More like 4x.

I get your point though.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Blehm98
conservative hatemonger
+150|6910|meh-land

Vilham wrote:

Blehm98 wrote:

Higher economic growth and fuel use translates into higher emissions, particularly in China, which gets around 70 percent of its energy from coal, the highest carbon-emitting fuel.
that is hte one reason that argument is faulty, as i said above, just this time i got a quote

the united states works to be efficient yet maintain its very important place in the world economy
and yet the US is NOT efficient, it manages to match the output of a country with 10x more people. How can you even consider that as efficient.
the united states is a major piece o f the world economy, which means it can be expected that the US would create a lot of pollution, regardless of how clean its industries are

china too is a major manufacturer, but remember the chinese use inefficient mass slave/children labor, whereas the united states uses efficient, but not as numberous machines at factories to produce stuff
blisteringsilence
I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Kennedy
+83|7149|Little Rock, Arkansas

Vilham wrote:

Blehm98 wrote:

Higher economic growth and fuel use translates into higher emissions, particularly in China, which gets around 70 percent of its energy from coal, the highest carbon-emitting fuel.
that is hte one reason that argument is faulty, as i said above, just this time i got a quote

the united states works to be efficient yet maintain its very important place in the world economy
and yet the US is NOT efficient, it manages to match the output of a country with 10x more people. How can you even consider that as efficient.
We use machines and technology to build things. China uses people. People don't require electricity to run. Industrial robots do.

I love how you accuse the US of a lack of efficiency without any data to back it up. How many scrubbers does China put on its coal plant's smokestacks again?
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7122|Canberra, AUS

blisteringsilence wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Blehm98 wrote:

that is hte one reason that argument is faulty, as i said above, just this time i got a quote

the united states works to be efficient yet maintain its very important place in the world economy
and yet the US is NOT efficient, it manages to match the output of a country with 10x more people. How can you even consider that as efficient.
We use machines and technology to build things. China uses people. People don't require electricity to run. Industrial robots do.

I love how you accuse the US of a lack of efficiency without any data to back it up. How many scrubbers does China put on its coal plant's smokestacks again?
Zero, because it's a "developing country" (despite being probably the second most powerful single country in the world today)

Last edited by Spark (2007-03-24 01:05:19)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
PureFodder
Member
+225|6732

Kmarion wrote:

ATG wrote:

So they get a pass?


Death to America, right?
[sarcasm]Co2 only has an impact "per capita". Doesn't matter where the majority of it comes from don't you know.[/sarcasm]

Now that is putting politics over science.
OK, if you insist, we'll do CO2 emissions by country.

Well compaired to the UK, the US has roughly 10 times the CO2 emissions, therefore I demand the US cuts its carbon emissions to a tenth of it's current level.

Sound fair?
pippin_death
Devon Dweller
+36|7034|Devon, England

PureFodder wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

ATG wrote:

So they get a pass?


Death to America, right?
[sarcasm]Co2 only has an impact "per capita". Doesn't matter where the majority of it comes from don't you know.[/sarcasm]

Now that is putting politics over science.
OK, if you insist, we'll do CO2 emissions by country.

Well compared to the UK, the US has roughly 10 times the CO2 emissions, therefore I demand the US cuts its carbon emissions to a tenth of it's current level.

Sound fair?
Very fair. The biggest problem, isn't necessarily America but planes which are said to be responsible for 40% of the worlds carbon emissions by the year 2050. America isn't exactly good on carbon but it is annoying when our government gives us extra taxes on "Gas guzzlers" when we are putting out a tiny percent of the worlds carbon. In conclusion America need to do something drastic, we all do, THAT MEANS YOU TO CHINA...
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6903|The edge of sanity

Blehm98 wrote:

interesting....  USA still has far more pollution per capita, but we're still more efficient overall compared to how much we do.  But...

BEIJING/LONDON (Reuters) - China is on course to overtake the United States this year as the world's biggest carbon emitter, estimates based on Chinese energy data show, potentially pressuring Beijing to take more action on climate change.

China's emissions rose by some 10 percent in 2005, a senior U.S. scientist estimated, while Beijing data shows fuel consumption rose more than 9 percent in 2006, suggesting China would easily outstrip the U.S. this year, long before forecasts.

Taking the top spot would focus pressure on China to do more to brake emissions as part of world talks on extending the United Nations' Kyoto Protocol on global warming beyond 2012.

Thirty five developed nations have agreed to cut emissions under Kyoto and they want others -- especially the United States and China -- to do more.

"It looks likely to me that China will pass the United States this year," said Gregg Marland, a senior staff scientist at the U.S. Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (CDIAC), which supplies data to governments, researchers and non-governmental organizations worldwide.

"There's a very high likelihood they'll pass them in 2007."

Carbon dioxide (CO2) is produced by burning fossil fuels like coal, oil and gas for heat, power and transport. Most scientists say it is a key contributor to global warming.

Marland used fossil fuel consumption data from oil company BP to calculate China's CO2 emissions in 2005 at 5.3 billion tonnes, versus 5.9 billion for the U.S., with respective growth in 2005 of 10.5 percent and less than 0.1 percent.

In 2006 Chinese fuel consumption rose 9.3 percent to the equivalent of 2.4 billion tonnes of coal that year, the deputy head of the office that advises China on energy policy, Xu Dingming, said on Thursday.

This was faster than BP's estimate of a 9 percent rise in China's oil, gas and coal consumption in 2005, to 1.45 billion tonnes of oil equivalent.

The International Energy Agency (IEA), which advises 26 rich nations, had already said last November that on current trends China would overtake the United States as the world's biggest carbon emitter before 2010.

China's Office of the National Coordination Committee on Climate Change said it could not comment on either forecast as it did not have a reliable estimate of the country's emissions.

"These figures are very complicated -- we don't have an estimate of CO2 for such a recent date," said an official who declined to be named. "We have just set in motion our national reporting plan... but it will not be done for two or three years."

US CITIZENS STILL TOP EMITTERS

U.N. data for 2003 put the U.S. top with 23 percent of world carbon dioxide emissions and China second on 16.5 percent. But U.S. individuals were far bigger emitters, at 20 tonnes per capita against China's 3.2 tonnes and a world average of 3.7.

China argues that wealthy nations are responsible for most of the greenhouse gases already in the atmosphere and should lead the way in cutting emissions.

And much of the growth in China's emissions is to produce goods consumed in the West, raising ethical questions over who bears responsibility for those emissions.

Higher economic growth and fuel use translates into higher emissions, particularly in China, which gets around 70 percent of its energy from coal, the highest carbon-emitting fuel.

CDIAC's 2004 emissions estimates, based on BP data, closely matched the IEA's estimates for the same year -- reached using its own energy data and U.N. emissions calculation methods, strengthening the reliability of the BP data, Marland said.

He estimated a plus or minus 15 to 20 percent error in the Chinese data versus a possible 5 percent U.S. error margin.

China's rapid growth in carbon emissions is threatening to outweigh efforts by the European Union and others to tackle climate change -- EU leaders said earlier this month they would cut the bloc's greenhouse gases by at least a fifth by 2020.

But China between now and 2015 will build power generating capacity equal to the entire existing capacity in the whole of the European Union, the IEA estimates.

China's growth has been fueled largely by burning coal, and it is still building new power plants at an unprecedented rate. Last year alone it added around 100 gigawatts of new generators, approaching France's entire capacity, most of them coal-burning.

A United Nations panel of climate scientists predicted last month a "best estimate" that temperatures would rise by 1.8 to 4.0 Celsius (3.2 to 7.8 Fahrenheit) this century, blaming mankind's emissions of greenhouse gases like CO2.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID … 1CA54F0332
Well the chinese have a free pass since thier a "developing country" *cough*bullshit*cough*

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