The lazy shouldn't be helped, but the weak (disabled, single parents, ppl with mental & physical problems) Deserve more help, but seam to be run over by the capitalistic steam roller.Kmarion wrote:
The government does help Americans, it just doesn't carry the weak and lazy.
Do really think you have no risk? I think you probably said it best here too.. " I think the US and EU will always have exaggerated concepts of the other's ecomonic system.". Like I said initially it is a matter of choice, not which is better. I think you underestimate our middle class. It still encompasses the majority of our income levels by a large margin. It always has.Braddock wrote:
I know Kmarion, I think we covered all of this in another thread ..de ja vu! That's why I said earlier "We're a lot like the US in many ways". I think the US and EU will always have exaggerated concepts of the other's ecomonic system.
Do you think it would be fair to say you can rise highest in the US but run the risk of hitting rock bottom harder as opposed to being able to rise high, but not as high, in the EU but not having to run the risk of hitting rock bottom as hard?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
We do have risks in our society but to my knowledge (I've never been on welfare) as long as you can hold onto having some form of address you can claim welfare in some capacity. If circumstances find you out on the street all of a sudden I think there are red tape issues regarding claiming benefits without a fixed abode. There are risks but not too many.Kmarion wrote:
Do really think you have no risk? I think you probably said it best here too.. " I think the US and EU will always have exaggerated concepts of the other's ecomonic system.". Like I said initially it is a matter of choice, not which is better. I think you underestimate our middle class. It still encompasses the majority of our income levels by a large margin. It always has.
hmm... Interesting...
Back to the original topic - did anyone else see something of a subtext in the poem - particularly in about the first quarter or so:
"America never was America to me."
"Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed"
"There's never been equality for me, Nor freedom in this 'homeland of the free.'"
"I am the red man driven from the land"
Back to the original topic - did anyone else see something of a subtext in the poem - particularly in about the first quarter or so:
"America never was America to me."
"Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed"
"There's never been equality for me, Nor freedom in this 'homeland of the free.'"
"I am the red man driven from the land"
What a crock o' shit....i bet your in the US army...only they have been brainwashed that hard...everything the original guy said was true....the american dream seems to be get rich at any cost, have fast car and sleazy chicks..Kmarion wrote:
The government does help Americans, it just doesn't carry the weak and lazy. For Americans the definition of freedom is the freedom to do, the ability to make our own way, to struggle, to achieve, to climb social-educational-economic ladders, and to move beyond our parents lot in life and give our children a better chance.
For the the Socialist the collective takes priority over the individual. It is the idea of we will not let our talented rise to high, and we will not let our lazy fall too low. Equality does not mean mean equal opportunity, but equal limitations.
The American dream is having a shot at the title as apposed to security at any cost. The American dream is providing the opportunities that allow us a chance to be great. We cherish the chance to realize our true potential. Reaching that potential is up to us. But our laws and our culture will not stand in our way. We do not have to accept our fate, we can make our own. We understand the risk and are willing to take them.
It's not a matter of whose idea is right or wrong. It is a choice, and that is what defines us. Americans wouldn't have it any other way, nor would the Socialist.
The dream is not dead. There are incredible success stories all around us everyday of those who came from nothing and created wonderful, successful lives for themselves. It's just not late breaking news anymore. It is something we know and have experienced.
deviant liberals and their thug followers(you) dont recognize this because youve become comfortable living off the misery of others......and excusing yourself by saying "everyone else didnt try hard enough"
I know its a military based game forum, but im sick of supposed US soldiers posting pro-liberal shite...u guys are brainwashed.
america"just doesn't carry the weak and lazy"....no,thats true.... it prostitues and pisses on them.
WTF???Superglueman wrote:
im sick of supposed US soldiers posting pro-liberal shite...u guys are brainwashed.
I don't intend to argue this. I'm sure that my status as a military member will null any points I make. Anyone else want to field this one?
Sorry, I'm stunned beyond the capacity for rational thought after reading that. I think I actually heard the screams of my brain cells and felt the agony of their death throes. I may possibly no longer remember how to solve complex mathematical equations. Gentlemen, we may have just now discovered something so stupid that there is no scientific unit of measure capable of quantifying it. I fear for all mankind.RAIMIUS wrote:
I don't intend to argue this. I'm sure that my status as a military member will null any points I make. Anyone else want to field this one?
Was that an essay for school? if so, what grade d'u get? (if it was graded work)Spark wrote:
It affirms my views on the "dream" beautifully.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Interesting. What d'u make of it young Sparky m'boy?
I wrote this today on the Dream:I wrote:
What is the American Dream? In my opinion, the American Dream isn't what it used to be. I know that, well, practically everyone else in the class is saying this, but I'm convinced that the American Dream has changed so significantly that it can no longer be called "The American Dream".
A hundred years ago - even up to just sixty years ago The American Dream meant two things - the Californian Dream and the Immigrant Dream. The Californian Dream represented the land-of-opportunity represented by the West, particularly California, where there was plenty of room for everyone (the East Coast and major cities were overcrowded), and you could have your own land, our own house and your own family. This dream was particularly present during the Depression, when world-wide failures of agriculture turned much of the Midwest (the breadbasket of America) into dust bowls. Forced to leave, the farmers saw hope in the west, in California, which they viewed as "paradise" (this story is recounted in Steinbeck's 'Grapes of Wrath').
The Immigrant Dream, represented by the Statue of Liberty, is a dream of those coming to America. While hope of their own house, own land and land-of-opportunity concepts were present, also present were ideas of liberty and freedom (especially from the oppression that existed in their homelands) - a good example would be Jews fleeing from Anti-semitism present in Europe - especially Germany - for up to a century before the second World War.
Then the world was fundamentally altered by two massive events - World War II and the Cold War. These two events introduced the concept of 'patriotism' to the American Dream - shown in JFK's famous line in hs speech about the American Dream: 'Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country'. This was the first thing that took the focus off the American DREAM and more on America itself.
The second concept introduced at this time was 'freedom'. Before, freedom was a concept prevalent mostly among immigrants and the worse-off in America - and then it only represented a freedom from oppression, of discrimination. During the Cold War, it represented.... basically everything America 'stood for', against communism and 'the Red Menace'. Again, JFK's 'Ich Bin Ein Berliner' speech is a good example of this. This word has become as corrupted as the dream itself, and now is meaningless save in random patriotic blithering about America - and its introduction into the American Dream is an equally corrupting power.
Now, in modern times, it has become infused with what I think is the most corrupting concept of all - capitalism. As most people have recognised, the American Dream today is a kind of 'get-rich-quick' scheme. My opinions, however, go well beyond this.
The American Dream, as I said earlier, has been appropriated by certain organisations and corporations to keep us buying their products, giving them money and keep us (common Americans) from questioning their deeds. This is designed to keep the common man from demanding tax equality for the rich, as they have instilled a fear that when the common man DOES become rich, he'll be taxed too! On the same token, it's used as an excuse to withhold (what I believe are) crucial advancements to welfare. making the excuse that 'The government, shouldn't help you, you can help yourself!'
As I said before, this is a lie.
Spark, I'm glad you feel that the American Dream was once a thing to be admired. It's always nice to hear a positive outlook on our heritage from the perspective of another country.Spark wrote:
Now, in modern times, it has become infused with what I think is the most corrupting concept of all - capitalism. As most people have recognised, the American Dream today is a kind of 'get-rich-quick' scheme. My opinions, however, go well beyond this.
The American Dream, as I said earlier, has been appropriated by certain organisations and corporations to keep us buying their products, giving them money and keep us (common Americans) from questioning their deeds. This is designed to keep the common man from demanding tax equality for the rich, as they have instilled a fear that when the common man DOES become rich, he'll be taxed too! On the same token, it's used as an excuse to withhold (what I believe are) crucial advancements to welfare. making the excuse that 'The government, shouldn't help you, you can help yourself!'
As I said before, this is a lie.
However, it seems like the American Dream never really existed. Yes, we did provide economic opportunity to much of the world's poor (especially in the early 1900s), but I think the American Dream was mostly a fantasy created to distract us from the harsh nature of much of the world. As globalization progresses, America becomes more and more connected to the rest of the world, and as a result, we see firsthand just how desperate so much of it is. Unfortunately, this desperation has spread to us and the rest of the Western World as corporations look for cheap labor. Our situation with Mexico is especially dire.
Now, it's time for America to discard this greedy capitalistic fantasy and focus on protecting its own jobs and better educating our workforce. This will be a much better expenditure of tax revenue than the futile War on Terror. Unfortunately, I think our paranoia may not allow such a shift of policy, however....
Nope, it was just a random thought which i posted. No markings, not sure if anyone's even seen it yet.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Was that an essay for school? if so, what grade d'u get? (if it was graded work)Spark wrote:
It affirms my views on the "dream" beautifully.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Interesting. What d'u make of it young Sparky m'boy?
I wrote this today on the Dream:I wrote:
What is the American Dream? In my opinion, the American Dream isn't what it used to be. I know that, well, practically everyone else in the class is saying this, but I'm convinced that the American Dream has changed so significantly that it can no longer be called "The American Dream".
A hundred years ago - even up to just sixty years ago The American Dream meant two things - the Californian Dream and the Immigrant Dream. The Californian Dream represented the land-of-opportunity represented by the West, particularly California, where there was plenty of room for everyone (the East Coast and major cities were overcrowded), and you could have your own land, our own house and your own family. This dream was particularly present during the Depression, when world-wide failures of agriculture turned much of the Midwest (the breadbasket of America) into dust bowls. Forced to leave, the farmers saw hope in the west, in California, which they viewed as "paradise" (this story is recounted in Steinbeck's 'Grapes of Wrath').
The Immigrant Dream, represented by the Statue of Liberty, is a dream of those coming to America. While hope of their own house, own land and land-of-opportunity concepts were present, also present were ideas of liberty and freedom (especially from the oppression that existed in their homelands) - a good example would be Jews fleeing from Anti-semitism present in Europe - especially Germany - for up to a century before the second World War.
Then the world was fundamentally altered by two massive events - World War II and the Cold War. These two events introduced the concept of 'patriotism' to the American Dream - shown in JFK's famous line in hs speech about the American Dream: 'Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country'. This was the first thing that took the focus off the American DREAM and more on America itself.
The second concept introduced at this time was 'freedom'. Before, freedom was a concept prevalent mostly among immigrants and the worse-off in America - and then it only represented a freedom from oppression, of discrimination. During the Cold War, it represented.... basically everything America 'stood for', against communism and 'the Red Menace'. Again, JFK's 'Ich Bin Ein Berliner' speech is a good example of this. This word has become as corrupted as the dream itself, and now is meaningless save in random patriotic blithering about America - and its introduction into the American Dream is an equally corrupting power.
Now, in modern times, it has become infused with what I think is the most corrupting concept of all - capitalism. As most people have recognised, the American Dream today is a kind of 'get-rich-quick' scheme. My opinions, however, go well beyond this.
The American Dream, as I said earlier, has been appropriated by certain organisations and corporations to keep us buying their products, giving them money and keep us (common Americans) from questioning their deeds. This is designed to keep the common man from demanding tax equality for the rich, as they have instilled a fear that when the common man DOES become rich, he'll be taxed too! On the same token, it's used as an excuse to withhold (what I believe are) crucial advancements to welfare. making the excuse that 'The government, shouldn't help you, you can help yourself!'
As I said before, this is a lie.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
This sentence rings very true to me. In all of its history, the United States has always carried this aura of independence, not just from other nations, but being a productive individual yourself. Even during the Great Depression you had people that felt like failures for taking relief money from the government instead of working for it. I don't know what's happened to this productive attittude by this time that has gotten us categorized as lazy cowboys.Kmarion wrote:
The government does help Americans, it just doesn't carry the weak and lazy.
Cool. I wish my random thoughts were as well structured as yours.Spark wrote:
Nope, it was just a random thought which i posted. No markings, not sure if anyone's even seen it yet.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Was that an essay for school? if so, what grade d'u get? (if it was graded work)
<*cue 'stop smoking weed then' posts...*>
The above post describes exactly the problem with an aggressive capitalistic approach to life. Success is measured in terms of material wealth. What a load of bullshit! Your society couldn't survive without the people who are 'less successful' in your terms, in particular the nurses, sanitation workers, etc. How do they fit in to your idealistic capitalist claptrap? The lower levels of a society's pyramid are always ignored by those aspiring to the upper echelons. Too busy looking up on the way there, and too self-important to look down once there.Kmarion wrote:
The government does help Americans, it just doesn't carry the weak and lazy. For Americans the definition of freedom is the freedom to do, the ability to make our own way, to struggle, to achieve, to climb social-educational-economic ladders, and to move beyond our parents lot in life and give our children a better chance.
For the the Socialist the collective takes priority over the individual. It is the idea of we will not let our talented rise to high, and we will not let our lazy fall too low. Equality does not mean mean equal opportunity, but equal limitations.
The American dream is having a shot at the title as apposed to security at any cost. The American dream is providing the opportunities that allow us a chance to be great. We cherish the chance to realize our true potential. Reaching that potential is up to us. But our laws and our culture will not stand in our way. We do not have to accept our fate, we can make our own. We understand the risk and are willing to take them.
It's not a matter of whose idea is right or wrong. It is a choice, and that is what defines us. Americans wouldn't have it any other way, nor would the Socialist.
The dream is not dead. There are incredible success stories all around us everyday of those who came from nothing and created wonderful, successful lives for themselves. It's just not late breaking news anymore. It is something we know and have experienced.
Just remember that those who choose to follow more socially responsible pursuits, such as nursing, and those whose abilities may restrict them to the less skillful positions in society, that these people make up the vast majority of any society's population and woe betide any arrogant bunch of money-grabbing pricks who ignore them for too long.
Yes, we need the 'leaders' in our societies, but we don't need the number of money-obsessed individuals, who are usually making money on the backs of others.
Take a step back and look at your job in terms of how important it is to your society. Can your society do without it, be honest and exclude your tax contribution. You'll realise that many of the socially important occupations tend to be the lower end of the pay scale. It is on the backs of these that the top five percent make their money.
This guy thinks I'm liberal..lolSuperglueman wrote:
What a crock o' shit....i bet your in the US army...only they have been brainwashed that hard...everything the original guy said was true....the american dream seems to be get rich at any cost, have fast car and sleazy chicks..Kmarion wrote:
The government does help Americans, it just doesn't carry the weak and lazy. For Americans the definition of freedom is the freedom to do, the ability to make our own way, to struggle, to achieve, to climb social-educational-economic ladders, and to move beyond our parents lot in life and give our children a better chance.
For the the Socialist the collective takes priority over the individual. It is the idea of we will not let our talented rise to high, and we will not let our lazy fall too low. Equality does not mean mean equal opportunity, but equal limitations.
The American dream is having a shot at the title as apposed to security at any cost. The American dream is providing the opportunities that allow us a chance to be great. We cherish the chance to realize our true potential. Reaching that potential is up to us. But our laws and our culture will not stand in our way. We do not have to accept our fate, we can make our own. We understand the risk and are willing to take them.
It's not a matter of whose idea is right or wrong. It is a choice, and that is what defines us. Americans wouldn't have it any other way, nor would the Socialist.
The dream is not dead. There are incredible success stories all around us everyday of those who came from nothing and created wonderful, successful lives for themselves. It's just not late breaking news anymore. It is something we know and have experienced.
deviant liberals and their thug followers(you) dont recognize this because youve become comfortable living off the misery of others......and excusing yourself by saying "everyone else didnt try hard enough"
I know its a military based game forum, but im sick of supposed US soldiers posting pro-liberal shite...u guys are brainwashed.
america"just doesn't carry the weak and lazy"....no,thats true.... it prostitues and pisses on them.
I was going to respond but his entire argument is just focused around attacking me.
Last edited by Kmarion (2007-03-23 13:28:36)
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Al Murray, the British comedian sums up America and the American dream (from a British perspective)...
Don't take too much offense it's only comedy! He actually takes the piss out of everyone including the British.
Don't take too much offense it's only comedy! He actually takes the piss out of everyone including the British.