DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7131|United States of America

PureFodder wrote:

Pug wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

The reason the US is so lax on regulation is because the companies are all incredibly greedy and stubborn. The reason the big three are failing is their trust-like competition-negating use of the UAW.
The reason the US is so lax is there hasn't been a dire economic need or persuasive need to change.  Aka gas is still cheap.

And I believe the reason for the downfall has to do with crappy branding - what word do you think of when you think about BMW? Nissan? or Honda?  What do you think of when you think about Ford?  It's a big purchase...Americans have love affairs with their cars...so what you buy is basically your image.  And I don't see Ford's brand (outside of trucks) as filling some sort of niche.
Interestingly in the UK, Ford have some of the best selling cars. The Ford Fiesta has been pretty much in the top 5 selling cars every year since it was launched in the late 70s. Apparently it currently hold the prestigious award in the UK of 'Most often stolen car' I guess as there's so many of them they're hard to track down. I have noticed when I was out there that Americans dont seem to do small cars though. I saw one new mini and one new Beetle in about 2 weeks, everything else was saloon size+.

The Escort was also extremely popular. Recently the Mondeo and Focus have done well.
Dude, you just named pretty much all of the Fords that I would never consider buying.

Last edited by DesertFox423 (2007-03-22 16:10:36)

PureFodder
Member
+225|6732

DesertFox423 wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

Pug wrote:


The reason the US is so lax is there hasn't been a dire economic need or persuasive need to change.  Aka gas is still cheap.

And I believe the reason for the downfall has to do with crappy branding - what word do you think of when you think about BMW? Nissan? or Honda?  What do you think of when you think about Ford?  It's a big purchase...Americans have love affairs with their cars...so what you buy is basically your image.  And I don't see Ford's brand (outside of trucks) as filling some sort of niche.
Interestingly in the UK, Ford have some of the best selling cars. The Ford Fiesta has been pretty much in the top 5 selling cars every year since it was launched in the late 70s. Apparently it currently hold the prestigious award in the UK of 'Most often stolen car' I guess as there's so many of them they're hard to track down. I have noticed when I was out there that Americans dont seem to do small cars though. I saw one new mini and one new Beetle in about 2 weeks, everything else was saloon size+.

The Escort was also extremely popular. Recently the Mondeo and Focus have done well.
Dude, you just named pretty much all of the Fords that I would never consider buying.
You should!
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6989|Texas - Bigger than France

PureFodder wrote:

Pug wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

The reason the US is so lax on regulation is because the companies are all incredibly greedy and stubborn. The reason the big three are failing is their trust-like competition-negating use of the UAW.
The reason the US is so lax is there hasn't been a dire economic need or persuasive need to change.  Aka gas is still cheap.

And I believe the reason for the downfall has to do with crappy branding - what word do you think of when you think about BMW? Nissan? or Honda?  What do you think of when you think about Ford?  It's a big purchase...Americans have love affairs with their cars...so what you buy is basically your image.  And I don't see Ford's brand (outside of trucks) as filling some sort of niche.
Interestingly in the UK, Ford have some of the best selling cars. The Ford Fiesta has been pretty much in the top 5 selling cars every year since it was launched in the late 70s. Apparently it currently hold the prestigious award in the UK of 'Most often stolen car' I guess as there's so many of them they're hard to track down. I have noticed when I was out there that Americans dont seem to do small cars though. I saw one new mini and one new Beetle in about 2 weeks, everything else was saloon size+.

The Escort was also extremely popular. Recently the Mondeo and Focus have done well.
Cool.  Since this is true, and you are familliar with it - when you buy a Ford or a Ford drives by, what's the one word that describes it?
Some others have built their brands around quality, performance, safety, engineering, etc.  When you see a Ford or a Ford commercial...what word comes to mind?

I'm talking about cars here - Ford's done a pretty good job with its trucks...
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,993|7078|949

The big 3 still are in cahoots with politicians and oil companies.  Why change when there is no pressure to?  Repeatedly the fuel economy and emissions standards brought forth in Congress are bumped back.  Like topal63 said, the best selling cars in the US are trucks.  Not only are the executives not willing to screw with the styling/inner workings of their best selling vehicles, but people who buy trucks (males 18-35) don't give two shits (generally speaking) about fuel economy.

Also, until recently, a lot of the auto companies were making money through their financing departments, rather than actual car sales.  Soon GM and Ford (the boardmembers and execs) were more worried about the bottom line than making a solid car.  Now that a few have sold off their credit/finance departments, watch the focus change back on making solid cars.  I wouldn't be surprised if 10% of '08 models come with a hybrid alternative.  GMC is already offering an '08 Yukon XL Denali hybrid (I think it gets like 15 mpg).

If the big 3 fail to create cars for the global market, they will fail, without a doubt.  Brand loyalty is being usurped by the need for cheap, reliable cars.  Only time will tell.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6942

Pug wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

The reason the US is so lax on regulation is because the companies are all incredibly greedy and stubborn. The reason the big three are failing is their trust-like competition-negating use of the UAW.
The reason the US is so lax is there hasn't been a dire economic need or persuasive need to change.  Aka gas is still cheap.

And I believe the reason for the downfall has to do with crappy branding - what word do you think of when you think about BMW? Nissan? or Honda?  What do you think of when you think about Ford?  It's a big purchase...Americans have love affairs with their cars...so what you buy is basically your image.  And I don't see Ford's brand (outside of trucks) as filling some sort of niche.
Ford is not failing because of "branding". That's preposterous. I have heard three persuasive contributing factors to the failures of the big three, and keep in mind, these come from very near Ford's heart.
1. Unions. The big three have continually manipulated the UAW in an attempt to financially damage each other over the past years. One of the three changes their pricing and uses the UAW to force the other two to do the same, meanwhile the other two repeat the process in another area. The end result is a trust-like non-competition agreement between the three companies, essentially regulating pricing between the big three. This is all fine and dandy for them, and an easy out from anti-trust laws until the forgein market peeks in. Because they are not involved in this labor love-triangle, companies like toyota and honda aren't subject to the non-competition agreement and vastly out-compete the big three while each of the three is individually powerless to do anything about it.
2. Pensions. The current pension plan is, and always was, unsupportable. But even when advised from within not to adopt the policy, the inbred management did it anyway. Which brings us to point three.
3. Inbred management. Each generation of managment is taught that exactly what their predecessors did before them was the only way to manage well. As a result, the managment is incapable. Likewise, the Ford family itself is rather incapable, greedy, and altogether uncaring about the health of the company outside of their stock portfolios.
mcminty
Moderating your content for the Australian Govt.
+879|7168|Sydney, Australia

CameronPoe wrote:

Anybody have the answer?
The Japanese have it right. No doubt about it.

Isn't ironic that the politicians all say that enacting emission standards 'will hurt the economy'? Fuckers.



Mcminty.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6989|Texas - Bigger than France

jonsimon wrote:

Ford is not failing because of "branding". That's preposterous. I have heard three persuasive contributing factors to the failures of the big three, and keep in mind, these come from very near Ford's heart.
1. Unions. The big three have continually manipulated the UAW in an attempt to financially damage each other over the past years. One of the three changes their pricing and uses the UAW to force the other two to do the same, meanwhile the other two repeat the process in another area. The end result is a trust-like non-competition agreement between the three companies, essentially regulating pricing between the big three. This is all fine and dandy for them, and an easy out from anti-trust laws until the forgein market peeks in. Because they are not involved in this labor love-triangle, companies like toyota and honda aren't subject to the non-competition agreement and vastly out-compete the big three while each of the three is individually powerless to do anything about it.
2. Pensions. The current pension plan is, and always was, unsupportable. But even when advised from within not to adopt the policy, the inbred management did it anyway. Which brings us to point three.
3. Inbred management. Each generation of managment is taught that exactly what their predecessors did before them was the only way to manage well. As a result, the managment is incapable. Likewise, the Ford family itself is rather incapable, greedy, and altogether uncaring about the health of the company outside of their stock portfolios.
Professor, I agree with your assessment that the union and increased costs are a liability, but they merely limit the companies in some areas.

GM launched a price war three years ago which is still going on, which is responsible for killing most of the profit.  This means your idea of price fixing is false.

I also disagree with #3.  The companies have felt global pressure since the seventies...you believe they have never changed?  What Bill Ford is doing is a complete strategic reversal of the past...

However, since we are talking about the big three:
GM is leading the industry in many areas...it's a complete different animal than Ford.   The unions are responsible for GM's weakness via employee dissatisfaction & work stoppages.  This is not price fixing.  Retirement costs are an issue because the money is leaving the company instead of becoming engineering, but don't forget that GM has the largest share worldwide.  It also has a brighter future than the others because the business model adapts faster and progressive engineering is being pursued.  Plus it has the largest share because it has good brands.

Dail-Chrysler bet on hydrogen instead of hybrid and is playing catch up in that department.  It's in better shape than Ford & GM in the union department, but its playing catchup in terms of market penetration in different parts of the world.  Ultimately it needs to decide to press forward with hydrogen for the win, with a hybrid car as a hedge bet.

But here's the failure - Ford.  Bill Ford is focusing the company on selling less cars for more money.  He's reengineering the hell out of his cars.  He now will be focusing on copying as a follower, instead of what Ford has done in the past - innovation.   Reengineering & copying is a dangerous road - because usually reengineering means more fixed cost...and copying usually means constant change.  His fixed costs are going to kill him...

My bet is GM & Chrysler will have a different fate than Ford.

But I still stand by branding - because this is a highly engineered product.  This means your corporate strategy is engineered directly into the product.  If you don't have a clear corporate strategy, and it doesn't translate into a strong brand strategy to the market...you are screwed.

So, why are the American brands lagging?  Well, GM is doing quite well in the emmisions department...I think it's leading.  Ford is doing pretty well with hybrids.  And Chrysler entered a donkey in a horse race.

As far as the other companies:
Toyota's strategy is focused on servicing the United States, but the engineering cycle is faster.  Hyundai is also being Toyota better than Toyota.  Honda got left behind in the hybrid race, but the company's reputation is to provide quality, even if boring.  Plus Honda's business model is what reinforces the dedication for quality.

As far as the other automakers...I haven't thought much about them because they are usually in alliances with the others.

So, you didn't understand what I meant by branding.  The brand drives sales, and highly engineered products have the company strategy engineered in.  You're focused on costs which will limit strategic options, but they don't make it impossible.  Plus the US auto industry actually is doing some interesting things that do not fit into the "stubborn, money grubbing & inbred" category.
S3v3N
lolwut?
+685|6965|Montucky

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

The big 3 still are in cahoots with politicians and oil companies.  Why change when there is no pressure to?  Repeatedly the fuel economy and emissions standards brought forth in Congress are bumped back.  Like topal63 said, the best selling cars in the US are trucks.  Not only are the executives not willing to screw with the styling/inner workings of their best selling vehicles, but people who buy trucks (males 18-35) don't give two shits (generally speaking) about fuel economy.

Also, until recently, a lot of the auto companies were making money through their financing departments, rather than actual car sales.  Soon GM and Ford (the boardmembers and execs) were more worried about the bottom line than making a solid car.  Now that a few have sold off their credit/finance departments, watch the focus change back on making solid cars.  I wouldn't be surprised if 10% of '08 models come with a hybrid alternative.  GMC is already offering an '08 Yukon XL Denali hybrid (I think it gets like 15 mpg).

If the big 3 fail to create cars for the global market, they will fail, without a doubt.  Brand loyalty is being usurped by the need for cheap, reliable cars.  Only time will tell.
Now I may live in the sticks where people still ask if I have running water but 9 out of 10 households own a truck where I live, for a few reasons which i'll explain, Cars lack the ability to travel down a dirt road *GASP not all roads are paved here* when covered in snow or during a heavy rainstorm. Also not just in the county I live in but think about all of the Ranches and Farms in the US (For example my family's cattle company owns and operates 14 pick up trucks.) Also I'll dip into another item for consideration, How many vehicle companies offer trucks (SUVs) to be used by, Police Agencies, Fire Departments, Ambulance Crews, Wild Land Firefighting, Forrestry, Construction and others.   

Yes there are people that by trucks just to own a truck but that is a very small amount of people compared to what I just listed above. Those Agencies and Companies are a very good reason why GM/FORD/DODGE stay in business.

Personally GM,Ford,Dodge are shit for cars, but trucks they dominate the market. Toyota has entered the ball game just alittle to late when it comes to fullsize pickup trucks. When some foriegn company can offer me a vehicle that can tow a 30 foot, triple axle trailer loaded with 6,000 lbs of Hay and great fantastic fuel economy. I'll be game untill then I'll continue to drive my 2001 Chevy Silverado with 496 Cubic inch engine getting 10mpg towing that formentioned trailer.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6852|North Carolina

jonsimon wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Vingh, sadly, a lot of that is true....  and it will likely be the end of our primacy.
That's not really true at all. Americans look as far down the road as any other western person. The difference is our society's upper classes have a stranglehold on the country, and the wealth gap is only increasing.
Fair enough...

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