I find it strange how those that have (been in that type of situation) often don't appear to see the argument that military force should always be the last option, not the first. Exactly because of the situations and decisions that war forces real people to face.Parker wrote:
i just love how the people that feel so strongly about this have NEVER been in that type of situation.........what is it? oh yes, armchair quarterbacks FTW!
They are facing murder charges. Do you expect them to be silent?CameronPoe wrote:
I've plenty of stomach for justifiable war. They shot the shit out of a car containing 'men of military age' (actually included women and children) when there is still much dispute over whether they were indeed ever fired upon - someone needs to change 'procedure' if you ask me.ATG wrote:
What he did was 100% according to training.
Punished for what: following procedures?
Ridiculous.
You just do not have a stomach for war.
Tbh - you need quite a thick hide to be able to come on TV and justify the killing of civilians when the circumstances are still hotly disputed.
That is what I learned during Mount training. Clear the rooms with gernades and leave the enemy an escape route so they can retreat out of the building and be gunned down vs you fighting an enemy in a deliberate defensive position on their turf.ATG wrote:
They are facing murder charges. Do you expect them to be silent?CameronPoe wrote:
I've plenty of stomach for justifiable war. They shot the shit out of a car containing 'men of military age' (actually included women and children) when there is still much dispute over whether they were indeed ever fired upon - someone needs to change 'procedure' if you ask me.ATG wrote:
What he did was 100% according to training.
Punished for what: following procedures?
Ridiculous.
You just do not have a stomach for war.
Tbh - you need quite a thick hide to be able to come on TV and justify the killing of civilians when the circumstances are still hotly disputed.
If you want to know what happens when you don't do it that way, see how ATF handled Waco. They went for Military Mount training, started by trying to clear the top floors and push the people out, but they didn't us genades because they were a non-Military force. ATF got their ass handed to them while trying to enter the first room.
These are Cameron strategies. Empower your Enemy and get yourself killed or run away like a chicken asss Irishman.
Last edited by Major_Spittle (2007-03-16 18:54:07)
All I can say is that it sucks to be a soldier.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
You bring up an excellent comparison.Major_Spittle wrote:
That is what I learned during Mount training. Clear the rooms with gernades and leave the enemy an escape route so they can retreat out of the building and be gunned down vs you fighting an enemy in a deliberate defensive position on their turf.ATG wrote:
They are facing murder charges. Do you expect them to be silent?CameronPoe wrote:
I've plenty of stomach for justifiable war. They shot the shit out of a car containing 'men of military age' (actually included women and children) when there is still much dispute over whether they were indeed ever fired upon - someone needs to change 'procedure' if you ask me.
Tbh - you need quite a thick hide to be able to come on TV and justify the killing of civilians when the circumstances are still hotly disputed.
If you want to know what happens when you don't do it that way, see how ATF handled Waco. They went for Military Mount training, started by trying to clear the top floors and push the people out, but they didn't us genades because they were a non-Military force. ATF got their ass handed to them while trying to enter the first room.
These are Cameron strategies. Empower your Enemy and get yourself killed or run away like a chicken asss Irishman.
People revert to the argument that it was a bogus reason for going to war, and ignore that the men were doing exactly as they were trained to do.
If these men end up being convicted and serve time without pardon I would say to the younger men in the forums who are American:
Fuck Uncle Sam, he aint worth fighting for. Get a education.
they were fired upon by whom? the baby? don't make me laugh...bitterly.GATOR591957 wrote:
Show me an option. They were fired upon. What did you want them to do, send an invitation to be questioned. I forgot. exactly what uniform or flag is Al Queda wearing these days. I would like all of the nay sayers here to explain to me and the US Military how you would fight a war without uniforms to identify the opposition. You guys really need to think this out further than your comfy chairs in front of your computers.spacepelle wrote:
"The girls killed inside Khafif's house were ages 14, 10, 5, 3 and 1, according to death certificates."
how the hell can you defend that?!?!?!?!??! there is something very wrong with the person killing a baby that is 1 yrs old...
whats even more disturbing is that there are people that think (even here...) that dont think its such a big deal...
you make me sick.
don't tell me that you really believe that the children belonged to al-queda! you cannot be that stupid. and don't tell me that killing children i collateral damage, thats just sick...
and nothing ever can justify the killing of children. even if its a mistake. they should be punished, and in a way i guess that they already are. someone in this thread said that it sucks to be a soldier, thats very true. i'd prolly kill myself if i killed a baby.
why would sweden have any troops in iraq? we have troops in afghanistan to help clean up the last mistake the U.S made... sweden does help out in sorting out conflict all over the world, google it. or i guess its just easier to be ignorant. don't worry, i wont try to change your mind. the thing is that sweden doesn't start the conflicts, we help maintaining peace, perhaps the U.S could learn something there...SFCCDailey wrote:
By-the-way how many troops does Sweden have over there? For that matter, when was the last time Sweden's military helped out with any conflict in the world. You guys just keep making chocolatte and and have a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up on me!
enjoy your coco.
Last edited by spacepelle (2007-03-16 21:23:55)
ya, google it. pfffft.
Mistake?spacepelle wrote:
why would sweden have any troops in iraq? we have troops in afghanistan to help clean up the last mistake the U.S made.
fragmentation grenades do not pick and choose who they injure.spacepelle wrote:
they were fired upon by whom? the baby? don't make me laugh...bitterly.GATOR591957 wrote:
Show me an option. They were fired upon. What did you want them to do, send an invitation to be questioned. I forgot. exactly what uniform or flag is Al Queda wearing these days. I would like all of the nay sayers here to explain to me and the US Military how you would fight a war without uniforms to identify the opposition. You guys really need to think this out further than your comfy chairs in front of your computers.spacepelle wrote:
"The girls killed inside Khafif's house were ages 14, 10, 5, 3 and 1, according to death certificates."
how the hell can you defend that?!?!?!?!??! there is something very wrong with the person killing a baby that is 1 yrs old...
whats even more disturbing is that there are people that think (even here...) that dont think its such a big deal...
you make me sick.
don't tell me that you really believe that the children belonged to al-queda! you cannot be that stupid. and don't tell me that killing children i collateral damage, thats just sick...
and nothing ever can justify the killing of children. even if its a mistake. they should be punished, and in a way i guess that they already are. someone in this thread said that it sucks to be a soldier, thats very true. i'd prolly kill myself if i killed a baby.
its just like in the game buddy.....they go boom and hurt anyone within a predetermined area....unless they have cover.
you make it sound like a cold hearted american soldier walked in there grinning from ear to ear and murdered a baby. quit taking things out of context before you make yourself look more foolish than you already have.
edit: its amusing at best that you have to send me karma to talk shit......if you have something to say, go ahead and say it here.....thats why its called Debate and Serious Talk, not Debate, lose and start flaming karma
good effort though.
Last edited by Parker (2007-03-17 00:24:23)
Good point. In fact, how about from now on we just level all cities in the vicinity just in case? For that matter, why not just level the whole of Iraq? And why stop there, why not destroy the whole Middle East? Y'know, just in case.SgtHeihn wrote:
Thats one of those funning things, the enemy doesn't put up a big sign saying we in here. They don't were uniforms, they work in cells, and they hide in civilians houses.
Good point. We should just abolish courts and all because, seriously, how many judges have ever stolen or killed? What right do they have to judge others?SgtHeihn wrote:
You can sit here and what if what Frank did all day, but, until you have been in the same situation, don't call him a murderer
Maybe, were I in his situation, I would do the same thing. But that doesn't make it any less wrong.
wow, and speaking of out of context.....its the king himself ^^^^^^
LOL bubbs
LOL bubbs
What have I taken out of context? Or are you just being your usual dimwitted self and saying things that you think make you sound smart?
Notice how ATG and Bubbalo fell silent and didnt return after this guy tore strops off them...the two of them were in the middle of an all out bitch sesh' with each other...i wanted to know how it was gonna end(..if it ever was)SFCCDailey wrote:
Ok, I have to respond to this Bullshit! As a Gulf War Vet myself I can speak from first Hand experience. I'm sure you have no fucking idea of what you are talking about unless I misunderstood and you have actually served this country in time of war. When being shot at from a residence, you don't know who in there is firing at you and you sure as hell don't have time to go ask nicely for the non-combatants to please get out of the house before you fire the first round in there. There is something called the "Fog of War" which basically means when the bullets start flying and the explosions are going off, some soldier's judgment becomes clouded and their only thought is "Fight or flight". Most soldiers are not going to take the "flight" option so their instinct is to protect themselves and their fellow soldiers by firing back at the location from which they are being engaged. As harsh as it may be, sometimes innocent people get killed. But as one of my instructors once told me when I was going through training, "It's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six." There are way too many of you people sitting back taking weeks even months to tear apart the decisions that a soldier has to make in a split second during combat. Think about that the next time you decide to pass judgment about something you know nothing about or before you make ignorant statements like "Oh, yeah, it must take real courage to gun down innocent civilians because you don't want to risk being shot." I'll let you tell that bullshit to some of the families that have lost their sons and daughters over in Iraq.Bubbalo wrote:
Oh, yeah, it must take real courage to gun down innocent civilians because you don't want to risk being shot.ATG wrote:
I am inspired that there are Americans like this brave man
From now on, keep your stupid comments to yourself DR. Shit for Brains!
Maybe 50 years ago, soldiers could be forgiven for fighting/murdering for "their country", but i this day and age, even with the umbrella brainwashing that is American culture, the world(outside USA) knows that the US military is hardly a righteous organisation....Since WW2 the US has stepped into heaps of foreign countries for no other reason but profit.
If your fighting in the army, you are fighting for the profit of the rich man..and you are a murderer.
You defend nothing but oppression of the poor worldwide and rich man's profit...when you shot that civilian/child, you shot them for nothing but greed..
When has any american had to "defend" america itself?....when?
If your fighting in the army, you are fighting for the profit of the rich man..and you are a murderer.
You defend nothing but oppression of the poor worldwide and rich man's profit...when you shot that civilian/child, you shot them for nothing but greed..
When has any american had to "defend" america itself?....when?
everything you said.....that is your attempt at debating.Bubbalo wrote:
What have I taken out of context? Or are you just being your usual dimwitted self and saying things that you think make you sound smart?
you take everything out of context and try to make yourself seem intelligent at the other persons expense, thats the style you use.
kids these days.......
the revolutionary war (but im sure that wont count, seeing as how that is when we formed this great nation)Superglueman wrote:
Maybe 50 years ago, soldiers could be forgiven for fighting/murdering for "their country", but i this day and age, even with the umbrella brainwashing that is American culture, the world(outside USA) knows that the US military is hardly a righteous organisation....Since WW2 the US has stepped into heaps of foreign countries for no other reason but profit.
If your fighting in the army, you are fighting for the profit of the rich man..and you are a murderer.
You defend nothing but oppression of the poor worldwide and rich man's profit...when you shot that civilian/child, you shot them for nothing but greed..
When has any american had to "defend" america itself?....when?
1812
civil war
WWII
and thats just off the top of my head.....if you would like i can elaborate further.....or you can read. your call.
and as for the us military being murderers....whatever you want to think....in the end your country is a puppet anyway so i suppose the jokes on you
He argued that until you have been in someone's position you cannot judge them, and I pointed out that on that basis we shouldn't have courts or police officers. Any basis for argument must have some degree of universality, if it is too context specific it merely proves hypocrisy.Parker wrote:
everything you said.....that is your attempt at debating.Bubbalo wrote:
What have I taken out of context? Or are you just being your usual dimwitted self and saying things that you think make you sound smart?
you take everything out of context and try to make yourself seem intelligent at the other persons expense, thats the style you use.
kids these days.......
ok then, you took things out of context and went to the extreme with them.
no one was talking about judges or any of that shit.....that was your attempt to appear intelligent.
no, you wont ever have to be in that situation.....why?
because people that ARE BETTER THAN YOU are doing it for you.
and you sit here and judge them......like i said......children these days....
no one was talking about judges or any of that shit.....that was your attempt to appear intelligent.
no, you wont ever have to be in that situation.....why?
because people that ARE BETTER THAN YOU are doing it for you.
and you sit here and judge them......like i said......children these days....
Yes, better than me. Because the fact that I don't want to join an army that I believe fights battles which don't agree with my morals has nothing to do with my decision not to join an army.
Are the people who tortured prisoners at Abu Grhaib better than me? How about John Murtha, who also criticised the incident (more harshly than me, I might add)?
Are the people who tortured prisoners at Abu Grhaib better than me? How about John Murtha, who also criticised the incident (more harshly than me, I might add)?
yawn, played out arguments.......
struggling.
oh ya LOL @ your "morals"
just bend over, it will make it easier for you and your "morals".
struggling.
oh ya LOL @ your "morals"
just bend over, it will make it easier for you and your "morals".
You wouldn't join the amy because your not old enough. Your arguments are from pure emotion and don't support fact. People die in war. The people in the house were most likely like moving blurs, action happenng so fast. As far as calling the soldiers murderers, only God has that right.Bubbalo wrote:
Yes, better than me. Because the fact that I don't want to join an army that I believe fights battles which don't agree with my morals has nothing to do with my decision not to join an army.
Are the people who tortured prisoners at Abu Grhaib better than me? How about John Murtha, who also criticised the incident (more harshly than me, I might add)?
How do you know he's not old enough? He's made a moral choice, you've made yours.
yay, static.bf2s.com has returned
yay, static.bf2s.com has returned
Last edited by Spark (2007-03-17 01:42:56)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
I smell alot of "Respek me cuz I fought in <insert same country here>" users in here.
Too bad you are all being used by large corporations to further their capitalistic agendas. Be proud.
Too bad you are all being used by large corporations to further their capitalistic agendas. Be proud.
Alpha as fuck.
Bubbalo, you made no sense. I never said anything about leveling the middle east, and you end up contradicting yourself at the end, yes its sad that civilians died, but that is what happens in war. I don't see you starting threads about how bad suicide bombers are or the death squads that operate unger the guise of being police officers. All you come on here to do is bash America and say "Austrialia rules all".Bubbalo wrote:
Good point. In fact, how about from now on we just level all cities in the vicinity just in case? For that matter, why not just level the whole of Iraq? And why stop there, why not destroy the whole Middle East? Y'know, just in case.SgtHeihn wrote:
Thats one of those funning things, the enemy doesn't put up a big sign saying we in here. They don't were uniforms, they work in cells, and they hide in civilians houses.Good point. We should just abolish courts and all because, seriously, how many judges have ever stolen or killed? What right do they have to judge others?SgtHeihn wrote:
You can sit here and what if what Frank did all day, but, until you have been in the same situation, don't call him a murderer
Maybe, were I in his situation, I would do the same thing. But that doesn't make it any less wrong.
Edit: Like I said before, I know the Marine in question and he is not a cold blooded murderer, He was following his training.
Last edited by SgtHeihn (2007-03-17 01:51:29)