BF2S Forums WACO Branch Davidian Raid, What did You make of it ?

we can't see that movie because we have freedom of speech.It's one of our" rights " don't you know

Horseman 77 wrote:

You can tell beatdowns heart is in the right place. he just doesn't have my "angle" from being near these shell shocked kinda people who has been on the wrong side, of Abuse for generations.

Come again?  As it might surprise you...I am black.  I know very well what it means to get pulled over by the police for no reason.  We called getting stopped for a DWB...short for Driving While Black.  I am very well aware of police overstepping their authority.  I can't count how many cases I have read where blacks have mysteriously gotten asses kicked for "resisting arrest".  The footage of the New Orleans police beating that black teacher up made me sick to my stomach, but to me and all other black men...that was business as usual.  I know what it feels like to be called 'ni@@er', 'coon', 'tar baby', and all that.  I know what it feels like to be a part of a group of black males and be told by the police to move along because we are "loitering" and yet less than 100 feet away, a group of white males are hanging out but they are simply 'congregating'.  oh yes...I am very well aware of how the system works.

An interesting incident happened to me about 13 years ago when I visited my best friend from Army Basic Training/AIT up in Indianapolis to be his best man at his wedding.  He was white, lived on the white side of town, and had all white friends.  Ironically, I was his only black friend that he had ever had.  Back in the 80's America was still very socially segregated, especially in the Central and Mid-West, so his lack of exposure was to be expected.  We had to pick up our tuxedos from the local mall, so him, his friends, and myself all went to the local mall to go get them.  We were in the mall no longer than 10 minutes before mall security approached us and told us to leave because we were "loitering" and not shopping.  All the other guys were confused at first, but then the realization of what was happening sunk in.  Mall security was trying to rid the area of ME...not them.

So with all due respect, I have your 'angle' more than you think.  I have not been just near these shell shocked people...I am one of them.

Regards,

Beatdown

Beatdown Patrol wrote:

Come again?  As it might surprise you...I am black.  I know very well what it means to get pulled over by the police for no reason.  We called getting stopped for a DWB...short for Driving While Black.  I am very well aware of police overstepping their authority.  I can't count how many cases I have read where blacks have mysteriously gotten asses kicked for "resisting arrest".  The footage of the New Orleans police beating that black teacher up made me sick to my stomach, but to me and all other black men...that was business as usual.  I know what it feels like to be called 'ni@@er', 'coon', 'tar baby', and all that.  I know what it feels like to be a part of a group of black males and be told by the police to move along because we are "loitering" and yet less than 100 feet away, a group of white males are hanging out but they are simply 'congregating'.  oh yes...I am very well aware of how the system works.

An interesting incident happened to me about 13 years ago when I visited my best friend from Army Basic Training/AIT up in Indianapolis to be his best man at his wedding.  He was white, lived on the white side of town, and had all white friends.  Ironically, I was his only black friend that he had ever had.  Back in the 80's America was still very socially segregated, especially in the Central and Mid-West, so his lack of exposure was to be expected.  We had to pick up our tuxedos from the local mall, so him, his friends, and myself all went to the local mall to go get them.  We were in the mall no longer than 10 minutes before mall security approached us and told us to leave because we were "loitering" and not shopping.  All the other guys were confused at first, but then the realization of what was happening sunk in.  Mall security was trying to rid the area of ME...not them.

So with all due respect, I have your 'angle' more than you think.  I have not been just near these shell shocked people...I am one of them.

Regards,

Beatdown

I didn't realise how bad it was over there till a mate of mine went to LA about 6-7 years ago and was thrown on the bonet of a police car and held at gunpoint because he looked "blackish".  He was 'jay walking'(which doesn't exist here) and as he tried to pull out his passport the cops pounced on him.  They just wouldn't beleive that he was australian despite an obvious accent difference.  The only reason he looks that way is because his mother is filipino.  His dad is whiter than me.  He travels a bit and now reckons its safer in pakistan than it is in the usa.

section9 wrote:

Horseman 77 wrote:

" In this Country, The Police are your Friends, and are here to Protect You. "
.

You live in a dream world pal ......wake up

Ya,you ought to know... right.

NYC is Dream land? where are you from ?


where I live they dont really bust your balls.

they work hard

Its a fairly dangerous job]

A fairly low paying job.

The only cool thing about being a cop in NYC is you get to park all F#$ked up and get away with it.

and you gotta be pretty fucked up for them to even notice you.

Yet when you call them they come,

What  more do you want?

You didnt leave age etc,, I wonder why?

sabotwulf wrote:

There is a lot more to the story that the mass will never know. Both sides fucked up, both sides put a spin on thier angle to put blame on the other. It was a sad event no matter how you look at it, especially the children.  Men wage the wars, women and wains bare it.

30
California
Personal accounts from colleges
Federal Law Enforcement Officer
Many...and most that YOU aren't allowed to have, lol.

Only one side put a spin on it, the other side was dead. Sorry just wanted to point that out.

CreepingDeath wrote:

i still feel that 3 of thier major rights where violated. Freedom of religion cult or not , Freedom of speech, and the right to bare arms..And our goverment got away with the murdering of these people . . .Sad but true . .

All those fredoms only go so far as the law will allow it.

Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can have any religion or cult,
Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say anything without having to face consequences,
The right to bear arms doesn't inlcude every weapon,

If I were to invent an obscure cult which involved slaughtering of virgins, insulting elderly citizens, jews, blacks, or any other minority; and also included stockpiling M1 Abraham tanks and sarin gas on my property, would you also say I was simply living my freedom of religion, speech, and my right to bear arms ?

every freedom has its limitations and it is either the next guy with a gun or the law that provides those limitations. I prefer the law...

atlvolunteer wrote:

FeloniousMonk wrote:

atlvolunteer wrote:

What I don't understand is why we need the ATF to begin with.  Alcohol, tobacco, and firearms are all legal, right?

I'd be all for the ATF if it was a convenience store.

LOL Me too!

ATFS = Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Strippers

MAN HEAVEN!!!

We need a new branch of Law Enforcement. It's where strippers with guns, beer and cigarettes break into your house with a tank, and fire smoke grenades, and somewhere in the confusion, you get a lap dance.

B.Schuss wrote:

CreepingDeath wrote:

i still feel that 3 of thier major rights where violated. Freedom of religion cult or not , Freedom of speech, and the right to bare arms..And our goverment got away with the murdering of these people . . .Sad but true . .

All those fredoms only go so far as the law will allow it.

Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can have any religion or cult,
Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say anything without having to face consequences,
The right to bear arms doesn't inlcude every weapon,

If I were to invent an obscure cult which involved slaughtering of virgins, insulting elderly citizens, jews, blacks, or any other minority; and also included stockpiling M1 Abraham tanks and sarin gas on my property, would you also say I was simply living my freedom of religion, speech, and my right to bear arms ?

every freedom has its limitations and it is either the next guy with a gun or the law that provides those limitations. I prefer the law...

Well put.  I believe the core of the issue is that too many people believe that "freedom" means one can do whatever they want and that is simply not true.  There is a consequence to every action and many times, just because I have the "freedom" to do something, it doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do.   Freedom isn't the ability to do anything, it is the ability to act responsibly.

It really irritates me when people spout their constitutional right to bear arms as a legit reason for owning any type of weapon.  I am not saying that I agree or disagree with the ownership of automatic weapons, etc....because I actually don't really care.  I am simply saying that I believe that people are taking that "right" completely out of context.  The forefathers of this country didn't have to deal with a burgoning drug trade, gangs, car jackings, daily homicides, drive-bys, or other forms of violent crime.  Semi-automatic and automatic weapons did not exist and the contemplation or thought that such a weapon never crossed those people's minds.  It isn't their fault, they just didn't have the foresight to see such a development.  I just can't see how a person today can use the right to bear arms argument as a reason to own any specifc type of firearm without ROFLOL.

If the Constitution was that rigid, I still wouldn't have any rights.  The "All Men Are Created Equal" statement didn't apply to black people because back then...we were not considered "men".

- Beatdown

Horseman 77 wrote:

section9 wrote:

Horseman 77 wrote:

Ya,you ought to know... right.

NYC is Dream land? where are you from ?


where I live they dont really bust your balls.

they work hard

Its a fairly dangerous job]

A fairly low paying job.

The only cool thing about being a cop in NYC is you get to park all F#$ked up and get away with it.

and you gotta be pretty fucked up for them to even notice you.

Yet when you call them they come,

What  more do you want?

You didnt leave age etc,, I wonder why?

my age is older then you and btw the last good cop to come out of new york was named serpico.cops are corrupt and they know it.

Now who is in dream land ?

and he still didn't leave his age local etc.

Does your big sister know you are using her 'puter ?

I fail to see what age has to do with the fact that cops are corrupt but hey whatever and my sister's would love to give you an asian ball massage  http://www.smithappens.com/video_ballmassager.php   
You mook

Is [M]Chicken from GenMay?

There is a post on what the Constitution Says and what the Framers of the Document. ( who just threw off there own Goverment by baring Arms ) meant . Go there read it.


no one here needs a history lesson on it

Here is the thread:
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=4928

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Beatdown Patrol wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

All those fredoms only go so far as the law will allow it.

Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can have any religion or cult,
Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say anything without having to face consequences,
The right to bear arms doesn't inlcude every weapon,

If I were to invent an obscure cult which involved slaughtering of virgins, insulting elderly citizens, jews, blacks, or any other minority; and also included stockpiling M1 Abraham tanks and sarin gas on my property, would you also say I was simply living my freedom of religion, speech, and my right to bear arms ?

every freedom has its limitations and it is either the next guy with a gun or the law that provides those limitations. I prefer the law...

Well put.  I believe the core of the issue is that too many people believe that "freedom" means one can do whatever they want and that is simply not true.  There is a consequence to every action and many times, just because I have the "freedom" to do something, it doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do.   Freedom isn't the ability to do anything, it is the ability to act responsibly.

It really irritates me when people spout their constitutional right to bear arms as a legit reason for owning any type of weapon.  I am not saying that I agree or disagree with the ownership of automatic weapons, etc....because I actually don't really care.  I am simply saying that I believe that people are taking that "right" completely out of context.  The forefathers of this country didn't have to deal with a burgoning drug trade, gangs, car jackings, daily homicides, drive-bys, or other forms of violent crime.  Semi-automatic and automatic weapons did not exist and the contemplation or thought that such a weapon never crossed those people's minds.  It isn't their fault, they just didn't have the foresight to see such a development.  I just can't see how a person today can use the right to bear arms argument as a reason to own any specifc type of firearm without ROFLOL.

If the Constitution was that rigid, I still wouldn't have any rights.  The "All Men Are Created Equal" statement didn't apply to black people because back then...we were not considered "men".

- Beatdown

I'm with you a B.Schuss on this one.  While I am fairly liberal, I do own guns and don't think that all weapons should be removed, but just the other day [M]Chicken (a gun owning, hunting, Republican Texan no less) and myself were having a discussion about this.  The weapons I cited were those like the MAC10/Uzi style weapons.  Even in semi-auto form they have no place in the hands of private gun owners.  They are highly inaccurate and designed to hold a lot of bullets to be thrown in the general direction of a targe (spray and pary).  On this point even he agreed.  Some weapons simply have no place in private gun ownership.

Freedom of speech still has limits, which is why we have slander laws.  The courts have also upheld that freedom of speech doesn't extend to situations such as screeming FIRE! in a crouded theatre.

All freedoms have limits and require personal responsibility.  My right to flail my arms wildly end where some one elses nose begins.  Too many of the posters I have seen here seem to think that they have the freedom of [insert freedom here] and that it has no bounds.

And last, but not least, I wholeheartedly agree about the Constitution.  The framers of the Constitution had no way of knowing how the world was going to be 200+ years later.  That is exactly why the Constitution of this country isn't such a rigid document, and why we have courts to interpret how those fit into the world as it exists today, not the world as it existed when it was written.

The right to bear arms is simply the natural born right of all humans to self preservation.  They put it down on paper because they saw how easily a government could fool its subjects into giving up that right.  They thought that if it was put down on paper, there is no way it could be misinterpreted.  Unfortunately, they also did not have communist and socialist ideologies back when they were writing the Constitution so they had no idea about the type of mental damage that could be caused when a government controlled the education outlets.  Fortunately, they were smart enough to figure out that even this blatant, NATURAL right, even when written down, could be usurped eventually.  That is the second reason for the right to bear arms.  Quite simply, the framers of the Constitution would include any type of weapon a single man could muster and maintain by himself.  Why?  Because a single man should be able to muster the ability to defend himself from well armed usurpers.  In effect, a man must be able to revolt if the government has usurped the powers of the Constitution.  If he can't, then the Constitution is null and void to begin with as the citizens do not have the power over the government, but vice versa.  So yes, I believe George Washington and Thomas Jefferson would probably have at least an M16a2 in their homes if not a M60.

It all boils down to common sense really, and because of the education system of this country, there is no common sense left.  Because of the education system of this country, we will continue to slowly slip into socialism until it is too late.  Noone will revolt because it is too horrible an idea, and their government is 'taking care' of them.  It is saddening to see this country fall, but it is inevitable.  Humans will always figure out how to enslave humans.  While freedom isn't perfect, it is still the choice I would pick over the current government.

BTW, the "they didn't have drive-bys, etc." argument is incorrect.  The framers of the Constitution DID have murders committed with firearms back in their day.  They still believed that every man should have the tools to defend himself.  This is because they understood that the tool was only used by the man to commit the act, not the committer of the act.  They tried the man for murder and punished him if found guilty. 

I just find it hilarious that someone thinks a gangbanger is going to mount a .50 caliber MG on their ghetto fabulous ride and go do a 'drive-by' with it.  Do you really think someone would actually get away with that?  They would be found and prosecuted rapidly.
"Wait, stop with the hydraulics.  It's making my shots go wide!  And turn up the system.  I can still hear the gun firing!"

Edit:
And yes, the basic idea behind freedom is personal responsibility.  Unfortunately it doesn't work nowadays because today's society has moved towards blame of others for the acts that one commits.  I agree though.  You CANNOT have freedom without responsibility.  Otherwise, you have anarchy, which is worse IMHO than no government.

Last edited by Jobarra (2006-01-12 10:36:13)