TigerXtrm wrote:
Okay I'll just respond to this and then I think I'm gonna drop it, since counter views are obviously welcomed with loaded shotguns around here...
The flag of the United States of America stands primarily for freedom, liberty and rights given to you by your constitution and Declaration of Independence. Your flag doesn't stand for space programs, car manufacturers or airplane companies so keep them out of your crazy list of things to be proud off... Seriously are you proud of your entire country because you have a Boeing factory around the corner? Good thinking mate...
The point I tried to make entirely may shock some people, but is true whether you like it or not. Everything that flag stands for is gone.
Freedom? You lost it after 9/11, dispite what people might think, putting a building there and calling it the freedom tower isn't gonna give it back to you. Your government is allowed to tap your phone, track your creditcard records, track what you do online, track what your kids do in school and what your husband does when he's out getting icecream and they don't even need a valid reason to do so. On top of that, they may arrest you and hold you even if you are somehow indirectly suspected of terrorism. If thats freedom then thanks but no thanks. You're being imprisoned by your own government at this point.
Also rights given to you by the constitution and the Declaration of Independance have slowly started vanishing. Separation of church and state for example has been thrown out the window years ago. Taxes have been trough the roof there as far as I know and gas prices apparently are even worse then over here.
What about the right to have the people vote for their leader as it is given in, I think, the constitution? Both elections were rigged, which has been pretty much proven, so thats not a right you have anymore either.
In the traditional sense of the values of America, do you have anything left to be proud off? Knowing what that flag represents, do you still believe you are putting out on your porch in good faith and that everything that flag stands for is still upheld? If so, you are mistaking, just like that patriotic woman who is just blindly patriotic, like someone else put it for me so nicely.
And yes of course, being the people living under that flag it is your duty to make sure those morals are upheld at all times. But I don't see any of you extreme pro Americans do anything to fix it. Maybe because you deny everything I just said is true, or maybe because you are to cowardly to step up and choose to hide behind a flag instead. I don't care for the reason, but the things that flag stands for have been lost a long time ago, and I stand by my opinion of that.
Now, I hope I'm gonna get some mature responses to this because I'm not even gonna pay attention to all you 'OMG LOSER ANTI AMERICAN FAG' idiots. If you have a valid counter point to make and you can make it in a mature fashion, then please do so. Otherwise, don't waste my time.
Tiger
I have to agree that there has been very little tolerance on this thread. I don't really understand why it is that so many folks want to speak in absolutes, and make final judgements without considering what really matters most - the impact on people. This impact cannot be determined by simply making a list of what appears to be going wrong and then judging an entire society. That would be incredibly short-sighted.
First, let me say, I am proud to be an american. It is my heritage. I will always be proud to be an american, that is something that can never be taken away from me. The symbol of my american heritage is the american flag, therefefore I will always be proud to fly it. The current state of affairs in the USA will not deter me from doing so. With that said, that does not mean that I will make excuses for, nor condone poor judgement on behalf of the United States government. The United States of America is both the most prosperous and the most controversial country on the face of the earth. We will always be under a microscope domestically and internationally. We should be. We have placed ourselves on the forefront of the global economy and political world stage and therefore must bare the responsibilities and criticism that goes with it. The fuel for these responsaes can be rooted in many things - jealously, resentment, defensiveness, mis-trust, dislike, injustice - you name it. To quote a recent movie, "With great power comes great responsibility", and yes, that power has at times been abused and our leaders have not always been responsibile. That is part of being a super power that makes mistakes and must learn from them - sometimes it happens the hard way where people die in unexpected ways.
Yes, the flag of the United States of America does stand for freedom, but it also stands for protection from threats to that freedom both domestic and abroad. I do not know the exact circumstances of those who have been detained by homeland security because of elevated terrorist threats in this country, but I do know that the intelligence to be more specific about targeted threats is increasing. This does take time however. Homeland Security certainly is aware that continuing to cast a wide net to try and stop terrorist plots takes far too much effort and yields poor results, so more specific intelligence and surveillance measures are being developed. However, this has not made us a society of hostages, nor has it desecrated the freedoms the Decleration of Independance afford us. The most the majority of americans have been affected is by slower airport security. That is certainly not "imprisonment by our government" - again an absolute statement that knows nothing about the real impact on the american people.
> Knowing what that flag represents, do you still believe you are putting out on your porch in good faith and that everything that flag stands for is still upheld?
What I know is that this country is no more perfect than the Netherlands, and never will be. America will always have it's faults, but what you need to understand is that your perception of America from the media is not what we actually live here. Freedom, democracy, protection are things we will always strive for, but never fully attain. I have travelled to over 20 states in this country in the last 6 years, and nothing is as you desribe it. Our freedom and democracy is as strong as ever. Yes, we are a nation that disagrees over our involvement in war, but we are not a nation that is self-imploding as you describe it. No, rather, we are a nation that is figuring out how to get out of an ugly war and how to protect ourselves from terrorists attacks, like the WTC attack, that is on a scale the world has never seen. This is not a perfect process, we are not a perfect people and it is a journey. The mistakes made along the way do not suddenly make me turn against my country, they do not stop me from loving my fellow americans, and they do not put me in a state of shame or fear. Sorry, but those traits are for cowards. Rather, the problems we are facing require us to take notice, be even more patriotic and encourage to not hide in our homes for fear of terrorist attacks. We will continue living as free people, and yes, we will continue to be proud to fly the american flag.
The history of the United States has always been one of internal struggle and then improvement. From the revolutonary war, the civil war, civil rights movement, etc. None of these improvements have been perfect or absolute nor will they ever be. They have all come with struggle and pain. It's not a switch that you flip, it's a life process that we have to live and struggle through. Why should our current state be any different? We have to get through these times, learn from what's happened and continue to change and improve.
Pretty easy to pass judement on another country in which you do no live isn't it? You just watch some TV, google a bunch of websites and you've got it all figured out? Doesn't work that way. You need to talk to real people who live everyday lives in this country, who are raising a family as I am. Folks who value living free and opportunity for prosperity. Sometimes everyday folk are called upon to make hard decisions, like go to war and possbily give up our lives because freedom often comes with sacrifice. You'll find we are not much different from folks in the Netherlands. I hope you love your country too Tiger, even with it's faults.
Tiger, I wish you all the best in the Netherlands, and hope that as a country you will never have to face some of what the US has. Regardless, if you do some day, I hope you will never be ashamed enough to hide your countries flag or feel like you are no longer proud of it. Stand tall and speak out for what you believe, never walk away in shame. Put your love of country above the mistakes it's leaders might make. Use your voice to vote for leaders you think will serve the country best.
Last edited by astdanno (2007-02-05 14:41:10)
