Yes. It's like flying a swastika.
1They do. At least many of them polled do. I also find obnoxious car stereos blasting out lyrics about rape and murder offensive, no matter who plays them. And my city government finds the display of military flags offensive, so the military surplus guy around the corner had to take them off of his building...so I guess it all comes down to who has the power to shut someone up.Reciprocity wrote:
1so African Americans don't find the symbol of southern state's rights to enslave human beings, offensive?unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Being insulted by the Confederate flag indicates the same sort of ignorance and bigotry that you just mentioned. People need to wise up and actually study the American Civil War before spouting their mouth off about it.Reciprocity wrote:
we shouldn't have to ban things. common sense should dictate that any use of the Confederate flag is offensive and insulting and displays nothing more than ignorance and bigotry.
2you cant pick and choose symbolism. you cant wave the confederate flag and say it stands for everything except crimes against humanity.
3Go to Israel and wave a right handed swastika flag. dont worry, you'll just explain to them that the flag represents the economic and social advances of the Third Reich, but has nothing to do with genocide, they'll understand, they might even fly it under the Israeli flag.
2Um, yes you can. Hate groups sometimes use the confederate flag for their dumbass marches. That sounds a lot like picking and choosing symbolism to me.
3The Nazis didn't invent that symbol. That's part of the argument.
Let's see. The Nazis also used an eagle. That means that for the sake of saving Jews from the nightmarish sight of the eagle, that all images of eagles in relation to national symbolism should also be banned.
If I recall correctly, I said "an important issue," not "a non-issue." In the English language, "excuse" used in the context I did is virtually identical to "reason." Thus, "convenient excuse"/reason. I acknowledge that slavery was a reason, and somewhat related to other reasons, but the sole reason. Ever hear about the tariffs? Growing sectionalism (vaguely similar to political dispute between western and eastern Washington)? Lopsided political balance?DesertFox423 wrote:
[Bill Lumbergh] Yeah....I'm gonna sorta have to disagree with you there. [/Bill]unnamednewbie13 wrote:
The American Civil War and WWII are not the same conflict. The ACW is already in the past. Why bury it any further? More folks than "white trash southerners" sympathize at least somewhat with Johnny Reb. States rights was an important issue in the Civil War. Slavery was a convenient political excuse to exercise federal heavy-handedness, much like some of the same bullying attitude that survives to this day.
States rights wasn't as important as you put it out to be. The Southerners were getting rich off of exporting the cotton, grown by slaves, to Europe and did not want to lose that. If abolitionists got into Congress and freed the slaves, they'd be losing out on bags upon bags of money. The Southern states had be threatening to secede whenever they didn't get there way for some time by 1860. Henry Clay helped to delay the issue tearing the country apart by helping with the Missouri Compromise and Compromise of 1850. The issue of slavery was not an excuse, because it had threatened the unity of the country and Lincoln wouldn't stand for it to happen.
Nobody in their right mind nowadays would say they regret the abolition of slavery, but it was not the sole reason for the civil war.
No. It. Isn't. Go read about the differences between the Civil War and WW2. But if you still feel the same way, then why don't you call for a ban on the US flag, because it might offend American Indians...djphetal wrote:
Yes. It's like flying a swastika.
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[edit]Time for bed. Been drawing most of the night, and realized it's already afternoon.[/edit]
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-01-14 13:13:10)
To be honest, that was the predominant reason. The South simply felt that with a President unsympathetic to the South, they were utterly powerless. The slaveowners also knew that Lincoln wanted to put slavery in the territories up to vote, and they felt that he would eventually ban slavery there. Their biggest fear was that Lincoln would eventually attack slavery in its core. Sure, there were differences over tariffs, politics, and culture, but those were not as large as the fight over slavery. While it's true that the war wasn't initially fought over abolition, the whole fight over states' rights and all that came from the right to hold slavery. Now the actual fighting took place because Lincoln and the South disagreed over the right to secession, but the secession was driven by Lincoln's anti-slavery stance.deeznutz1245 wrote:
Agreed, slavery was an issue on the back burner and it was one of the political differences between the South and the Nation. What I am saying is that, to state the civil war was fought solely on the South wanting slaves and the North wanting to free them, would be insanely uneducated and ignorant. I did not mean to dismiss it, I was just pointing out one of the biggest historical misconceptions our government would like us beleive. And by the way, indentured service went well into the 1890's. Not so much with blacks, but with Native Americans. Another fact most people dont know. More Native Americans were enslaved than Africans.UGADawgs wrote:
Yeah, but what did the South want independence for? On the surface the war was about states' rights, but what was the right about? Slavery wasn't the only cause, but you can't just dismiss it so casually. To say that the war was about states' rights, not slavery is completely ignorant.deeznutz1245 wrote:
I'm starting to think you are under the impression was fought over slave abolishment. If that is the case then you are incorrect. The civil war was fought because the South wanted independence from the rest of the nation (the North). It just so happened that the North won and they did not embrace slavery. Instead they practiced indentured service (just about the same). The rebel flag symbolizes the South's desire to be separate from the North and nothing else. It has no link to a self proclamation of superiority or dominance towards anyone else, just simply their desire to be separate. Over time most people adopted the flag as a symbol of rebelliousness, others tied it to pro-slavery. But what I dont understand is why you are so angered by it. It is nothing more than a flag of people who did not want to be governed by the people they were currently governed by. So in a sense it stands for the same thing as the American flag.
And indentured servitude didn't really exist after the colonial period anyway.
We must be thinking of two different things, because indentured servitude as a means of coming to America had died out by revolution times, and the practice of using mass indentured servitude labor had died out before then.
The confederate flag meant a lot more than pro-slavery. It is just a different philosophy on how the government should be organized and how it should work.
I'd be happy if they banned "The Dukes of Hazard"
He wasn't stupid it's a good question.
He wasn't stupid it's a good question.
No. It goes against first amendment rights and that is bad.
That's actually......all I had to say. Pretty simple.
That's actually......all I had to say. Pretty simple.
HELLZ NO! It's a part of History, let it be.
History ladies and gentlemen... what were talking about here is history. if you ban or supress items from our past, there is no logical way to learn from mistakes of others from years past.
there are those who claim it to be a symbol of "redneck pride". however, good or bad, right or wrong. there are places still TODAY that fly stars and bars ABOVE the american flag. and if you went there intent on taking it down or moving the american flag above it. you better be armed so you have somewhat of a chance.
because you never know what evil lurks in the hearts of men.. because in those little backwater towns. it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong.. because when you're looking down the barrel of a loaded gun. being right wont keep you alive.
there are those who claim it to be a symbol of "redneck pride". however, good or bad, right or wrong. there are places still TODAY that fly stars and bars ABOVE the american flag. and if you went there intent on taking it down or moving the american flag above it. you better be armed so you have somewhat of a chance.
because you never know what evil lurks in the hearts of men.. because in those little backwater towns. it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong.. because when you're looking down the barrel of a loaded gun. being right wont keep you alive.
You Couldn't Be More Wright Jedikiah
I have mine along with the us flag sailing in the wind................
It is NOT a foreign flag in any way. It is the past flag of a part of the US, as much as the flag of the first thirteen colonies is. And as it was already said, freedom of speech guarantees anyones right to put up a confederate flag if they want to.Blehm98 wrote:
Banning a flag is disrupting freedom of speach. However, you must fly it below the american flag, as it is technically a foreign flag
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Hey Ark Im With You Fly It High An Proud Man
People should be able to fly whatever flag they want. It's just a flag.
So it shows that you truely do not know anything that happened during the Civil War. First the war was not about slavery. It was about state rights. Second, the war only had anything to do with slavery near the end, this was to get support for the war.Reciprocity wrote:
we shouldn't have to ban things. common sense should dictate that any use of the Confederate flag is offensive and insulting and displays nothing more than ignorance and bigotry.
Now with that said, what if that person is honoring the people who died to defend that flag? Does that mean that we should not respect anyone at all? What do you do at Civil War reenactments? Do the "Southerns" just go out without a flag? Or should they just carry a white one? What do we do with states that have the Confederate flag in them, like Mississippi? Should they have to change their flag?
Even though it is a part of US history that we all wish we could forget, we have to live with it. By showing the flag we remind people of the mistakes that we had in the past, and hopefully we remember them, and not repeat them in the future.
no shitdubbs wrote:
So it shows that you truely do not know anything that happened during the Civil War. First the war was not about slavery. It was about state rights. Second, the war only had anything to do with slavery near the end, this was to get support for the war.
honoring rebels and secession? fuck them.dubbs wrote:
Now with that said, what if that person is honoring the people who died to defend that flag?
I may not quote this correctly but it goes something like this:Reciprocity wrote:
no shitdubbs wrote:
So it shows that you truely do not know anything that happened during the Civil War. First the war was not about slavery. It was about state rights. Second, the war only had anything to do with slavery near the end, this was to get support for the war.
It is better to remain quiet and let everyone think you are an idiot, then to speak and prove them correct.
No everyone in the South agreed with the war. Some were forced to fight the war even if they did not want to fight for it.Reciprocity wrote:
honoring rebels and secession? fuck them.dubbs wrote:
Now with that said, what if that person is honoring the people who died to defend that flag?
My two quick cents:
America is steriotypicly the 'land of freedom'. The confederate flag does no-one any harm, it's just an expresson. I could go on to argue that the United States are hardly United blah blah blah but I'm tired and I have work tomorrow.
America is steriotypicly the 'land of freedom'. The confederate flag does no-one any harm, it's just an expresson. I could go on to argue that the United States are hardly United blah blah blah but I'm tired and I have work tomorrow.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
What were the states wanting the rights for? You're correct in that the actual fighting started because Lincoln and the South disputed over whether a state could secede, but most of the causes leading up to the war were associated with slavery. The South felt that slavery was threatened because Lincoln's election ended the South's political power. It didn't help that he wanted to curtail the expansion of slavery, and most Southerners felt that eventually the Republicans would attack slavery directly. You're correct that we bombed Ft. Sumter because we thought we had the right to secede, not because we immediately felt the threat of emancipation. It's also true that the abolishment of slavery didn't become the focus until later. However, it's pretty dishonest of you to take the spark igniting the conflict and expand it to be the cause of the entire war. The differences over slavery were the major reason why secession occurred. The South would not have seceded if it thought that it could protect slavery by political means.dubbs wrote:
So it shows that you truely do not know anything that happened during the Civil War. First the war was not about slavery. It was about state rights. Second, the war only had anything to do with slavery near the end, this was to get support for the war.Reciprocity wrote:
we shouldn't have to ban things. common sense should dictate that any use of the Confederate flag is offensive and insulting and displays nothing more than ignorance and bigotry.
Now with that said, what if that person is honoring the people who died to defend that flag? Does that mean that we should not respect anyone at all? What do you do at Civil War reenactments? Do the "Southerns" just go out without a flag? Or should they just carry a white one? What do we do with states that have the Confederate flag in them, like Mississippi? Should they have to change their flag?
Even though it is a part of US history that we all wish we could forget, we have to live with it. By showing the flag we remind people of the mistakes that we had in the past, and hopefully we remember them, and not repeat them in the future.
Like it or not, these rebels helped shape the country you live in. They are a huge chunk of american history, and fought like hell to defend their land.Reciprocity wrote:
honoring rebels and secession? fuck them.dubbs wrote:
Now with that said, what if that person is honoring the people who died to defend that flag?
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
sorry about late response, but ah wellEVieira wrote:
It is NOT a foreign flag in any way. It is the past flag of a part of the US, as much as the flag of the first thirteen colonies is. And as it was already said, freedom of speech guarantees anyones right to put up a confederate flag if they want to.Blehm98 wrote:
Banning a flag is disrupting freedom of speach. However, you must fly it below the american flag, as it is technically a foreign flag
You are actually partially correct. I believe we never acknowledged (wth drew a blank on spelling...) the confederate states as a legitimate government, so therefore it cannot be restricted as far as flying it on a flag pole in any way due to the fact that it is the flag of a fictional government. But it still goes beneath the American flag
if we did recognize them as a legitimate government then it is a foreign flag. It therefore must be flown beneath the american flag
Right over your head. The north was as much for slavery as was the south. Lincon did it (proclamation) out of raising soldiers and causing turmoil in the south. Read your history. The Rebel Flag did not symbolize racism, revisionist such as yourself paint it that way though. I'll bet you think Kerry is a hero in the Vietnam war too.Reciprocity wrote:
so African Americans don't find the symbol of southern state's rights to enslave human beings, offensive? No, slavery wasn't THE cause of the Civil War, but before the Civil War, slavery, after the Civil War, no slavery. the vast majority of confederate soldiers we dirt poor farmers who couldn't afford their own land, much less a slave. The vast majority or Union soldier were just as racist as anyone from the south or anywhere else.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Being insulted by the Confederate flag indicates the same sort of ignorance and bigotry that you just mentioned. People need to wise up and actually study the American Civil War before spouting their mouth off about it.
you cant pick and choose symbolism. you cant wave the confederate flag and say it stands for everything except crimes against humanity.
Go to Israel and wave a right handed swastika flag. dont worry, you'll just explain to them that the flag represents the economic and social advances of the Third Reich, but has nothing to do with genocide, they'll understand, they might even fly it under the Israeli flag.
-don't you have "Arkansas of the .." in your sig? What is that supposed to mean? You honor the south, but... Bah, whatever -BTW what do you think of the US army killing all of the Indians? Wasn't it the North right after the war that... You like the US flag? What color is your flag? White?
Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2007-01-19 22:16:48)
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
in India the swastika means happinessdjphetal wrote:
Yes. It's like flying a swastika.
these white trash baiting threads always make me laugh. you kids should stick with 'The Turner Diaries' . Leave the history books to grown ups.
so its ok for blacks to wear there X an be proud of there leaders. We are white an fly the stars an bars were wrong an white trash will I tell you something mine will never come down im very proud of my heritage. My flag will never be flown below the American flag its flown beside as a equal as I treat everyone no matter black or white but when you go an try to a person pride away like someone said here you better come with a gun so you have somewhat of a chance
its a tough one but to many people the confederate flag can mean oppression. The northern states wanted to free slaves with law and policy right? and the Southern States opposed that? I know there is a lot more to it but that was the general consensus of the time.
To me I would say it shouldn't be banned but i think you shouldn't be allowed to fly the flag! America is AMERICA not the Southern Confederate Sates !
Stop living in the past you don't see South Africans flying the old SA flag!! that era is over !! its the past and if you did see people flying that flag they have no respect for themselves and or anyone else... Usually the WT (White trash of SA fly the old flag!) looks like WT are the same world over!!!
To many the Confederate flag means oppression and pro-slavery and to other it means fighting for what you believe...
You should have the right to own a confederate flag but you should not have the right to fly it in front of your house... If you allowed to have a confederate flag flying out side your house u might as well have KKK branned on your doors while your about it !
To me I would say it shouldn't be banned but i think you shouldn't be allowed to fly the flag! America is AMERICA not the Southern Confederate Sates !
Stop living in the past you don't see South Africans flying the old SA flag!! that era is over !! its the past and if you did see people flying that flag they have no respect for themselves and or anyone else... Usually the WT (White trash of SA fly the old flag!) looks like WT are the same world over!!!
To many the Confederate flag means oppression and pro-slavery and to other it means fighting for what you believe...
You should have the right to own a confederate flag but you should not have the right to fly it in front of your house... If you allowed to have a confederate flag flying out side your house u might as well have KKK branned on your doors while your about it !