ATG
Banned
+5,233|6500|Global Command
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070108/D8MH90U00.html

https://i18.tinypic.com/2zrkvm9.jpg
Part of what I'm expecting Bush to say tomorrow is...well, if I was his speech writer this is what I would say;

Bush should say wrote:

Sayyed Muqtada al-Sadr and his followers have not been a force of stability in Iraq. They have repeatedly threatened coalition forces and engaged in open battles with Iraqi security forces. They have been linked to Mosque bombings and death squads, they are receiving direct aid from Iranian agents who seek to further foment conflict in the region with the long term goal of absorbing Iraq and her assets.

As of this hour I am declaring the border of Iran and Iraq closed. Any foot or vehichle traffic will be fired upon. Attempts by Iranian elements to bring weapons across the border shall be considered an act of war.

The Iraqi forces have issued a arrest warrant for Sayyed Muqtada al-Sadr to be effective in 24 hours. Himself and any who wish to follow him shall be afforded safe passage to the Iranian border.

Further, possession of firearms of any sort by the people of Iraq are hereby declared illegal except as by permit issued by the Iraqi government. Residents have 24 hours to surrender any arms. There is a 7 p.m. to sunrise curfew effect immediatly.

I am ordering the redeployment of all American forces now stationed in Germany to Iraq.
Quietly, behind the scenes, the governments of jordan, eqypt and saudi arabia are not discouraging Israel from military action it is considering against Iran. The dictorial governments of those nations are Sunni, Iran is Shia and they fear Irans Mullahs are preparring to right 1000 years of injustice against the Shia with nuclear weapons. 
They don't fear Iran nuking Israel so much as they fear Iran nuking their own countries.

For those who think we can just withdraw from Iraq consider this; you virtually garantee a multi nation war on a much larger scale than anything seen sinse WW2; Saudi Arabia will engage Iranian troops in Iraq, Turkey will engage the Kurds in their South and Iraqs north. Russia may well decide the time is right for action against Belarus.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6526
I don't agree with your hypothesis and the big question is 'why the fuck would we care if they blow the fuck out of each other - that's their prerogative'. As a west-coast American you should be content in the knowledge that that region of the world is about 15,000 miles away...

On the issue of Iraq: Iraq is a lost cause - I don't even know what the US 'cause' is anymore....!

All I know is that I'd channel most of my energy into resisting foreign influence on my country. I'm pretty sure a rather large amount of Iraqis feel similarly. The amount of ordinance you throw at them ain't gonna change that.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-09 15:52:14)

smtt686
this is the best we can do?
+95|6602|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

I don't agree with your hypothesis and the big question is 'why the fuck would we care if they blow the fuck out of each other - that's their prerogative'. As a west-coast American you should be content in the knowledge that that region of the world is about 15,000 miles away...

On the issue of Iraq: Iraq is a lost cause - I don't even know what the US 'cause' is anymore....!
Of course you don't agree.  You never agree with anything that goes on in Iraq.  Or America. Or Bush. Or Isreal.  Or the U.N. (but cant blame you there). 

And for the record, I am sure a lot of people care if they do blow the shit out of each other.  We need the middle east just as much as they need us (or we need their oil as much as they need us to need their oil).  Besides, there more than just oil to that region anyway, but maybe you never noticed.  After all, they do have some of the coolest desalinization plants in the world there.
King_County_Downy
shitfaced
+2,791|6568|Seattle

I wish GW said that. We pretty much see eye to eye ATG.

The point of it all is to take care of business. Literally and figuratively.
Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it
maffiaw
ph33r me 傻逼
+40|6391|Melbourne, AUS
It would seem too simplistic given the circumstances. Don't forget that the current US-backed Iraqi government under al-Maliki is predominantly Shi'a, with strong links to both the Mahdi Army and Iran. You cannot ignore the fact that several key government members had publicly criticised US forces for raiding areas in Sadr city just a few months back.
The question is, while your solution may have some practical merit, will the US be willing to openly ignore the supposed "democratically elected" government?
smtt686
this is the best we can do?
+95|6602|USA
ATG,

Its time we start getting down to business.  Time to take the kid gloves off and go manhandle the minority of idiots who want to make life rough for the majority of good people over there.

That would be a great thing to hear, but the P.C.'ness of the world really prohibits it.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6526
I'll put it like this:

Killing Moqtada Al-Sadr = well and truly driving the final nail in the coffin of the US 'mission' in Iraq. The man is a very popular ethnic Iraqi. Martyrise him and then you've martyred figureheads on both sides of the religious divide in Iraq. Neither Shi'as or Sunnis want US presence in their country. US citizens would not trust Russians 'rebuilding' their resource rich country, especially if Russia was allied to Iran (as USA is allied to the arch nemesis of nearly every middle eastern nation, Israel). Give it up dudes - it was game over before the whole thing started.

smtt686 wrote:

ATG,

Its time we start getting down to business.  Time to take the kid gloves off and go manhandle the minority of idiots who want to make life rough for the majority of good people over there.

That would be a great thing to hear, but the P.C.'ness of the world really prohibits it.
Get down to business? I'd like to see the plan! USA has neither the will (politically or otherwise) nor the wherewithall to 'bring peace' to Iraq. Political correctness has nothing to do with it. I really find it odd how Americans, who fought to become free of British rule, think Iraqis would be happy to have 'The Great Satan' (as America is referred to in the middle east) messing around in their country, 'reconstructing their society' and 'bringing peace (lol), freedom and democracy'.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-09 16:12:59)

King_County_Downy
shitfaced
+2,791|6568|Seattle

CameronPoe wrote:

I'll put it like this:

Killing Moqtada Al-Sadr = well and truly driving the final nail in the coffin of the US 'mission' in Iraq. The man is a very popular ethnic Iraqi. Martyrise him and then you've martyred figureheads on both sides of the religious divide in Iraq. Neither Shi'as or Sunnis want US presence in their country. US citizens would not trust Russians 'rebuilding' their resource rich country, especially if Russia was allied to Iran (as USA is allied to the arch nemesis of nearly every middle eastern nation, Israel). Give it up dudes - it was game over before the whole thing started.
You act like we couldn't win against them. If it came down to it, we could. Biologically, chemically, and nuclearelerly.

We're the big dogs, remember? We got the cool weapons. They throw rocks...maybe have one or two nukes. meh
Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6500|Global Command
Folks, in my speech for bush i never suggested killing him. I suggested the Iraqi government had issued a arrest warrant effective in 24 hours and he was to be allowed safe passage.
Now, if he stays, it's on them and boo hoo.

Don't be too suprised if W makes a speech not far off from where i'm at.

People like Sadr are making the problem worse. He may be popular, but only with the Shia.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6526

King_County_Downy wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I'll put it like this:

Killing Moqtada Al-Sadr = well and truly driving the final nail in the coffin of the US 'mission' in Iraq. The man is a very popular ethnic Iraqi. Martyrise him and then you've martyred figureheads on both sides of the religious divide in Iraq. Neither Shi'as or Sunnis want US presence in their country. US citizens would not trust Russians 'rebuilding' their resource rich country, especially if Russia was allied to Iran (as USA is allied to the arch nemesis of nearly every middle eastern nation, Israel). Give it up dudes - it was game over before the whole thing started.
You act like we couldn't win against them. If it came down to it, we could. Biologically, chemically, and nuclearelerly.

We're the big dogs, remember? We got the cool weapons. They throw rocks...maybe have one or two nukes. meh
Yeah - but that's exactly it. The only thing the US could do is turn the place into a desolate lifeless wasteland. Would that be 'mission accomplished'?
King_County_Downy
shitfaced
+2,791|6568|Seattle

CameronPoe wrote:

Yeah - but that's exactly it. The only thing the US could do is turn the place into a desolate lifeless wasteland. Would that be 'mission accomplished'?
Fuck yeah, the oil would be just fine. And I could fill my tank for about 20 bucks again! $50 is way too much. Pisses me off everyday I have to fill up. I say LETS GO!
Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it
srog72
Member
+12|6727|Michigan

smtt686 wrote:

And for the record, I am sure a lot of people care if they do blow the shit out of each other.  We need the middle east just as much as they need us (or we need their oil as much as they need us to need their oil).  Besides, there more than just oil to that region anyway, but maybe you never noticed.  After all, they do have some of the coolest desalinization plants in the world there.
A plant?  come on there isnt anything else there.....We need to get out of there, we dont have a realistic endstate or something that signifies "mission complete".  I do agree with the world treating each other right....amd living in peace....
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6526

ATG wrote:

He may be popular, but only with the Shia.
LOL. Shi'a representing what percentage of the entire population of Iraq?? lol.

I think you need to realise that Moqtada Al Sadr is IMMUNE. Touch him - you're reeeaaalllllyyy fucked. Arrest, exile or otherwise.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6500|Global Command
Well what were doing now is equivilent to winding up a spinning top ( removal of saddam ) and letting it loose in a room with a house of cards ( stability in the mid-east ).

What are we going to do; " well, we've taken out your dictator see you around!"

We've tried the lite foot print approach and its gotten us nowhere and is getting many Iraqis killed.
A velvet fist in an iron glove we are not, it's more like a iron fist  with a velvet glove.

We've given them the chance to unify and behave; they have failed.
We are not pulling out of the area and the status quo isn't working.


The U.S. military is a massive lumbering beast, capable of security if the velvet gloves are removed.
The only two possibilities are to take the gloves off or bail. And we are not bailing anytime soon.
{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank
U.S. > Iran
+497|6548|Florida

King_County_Downy wrote:

nuclearelerly.
I dont think thats a word lol
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6461|Menlo Park, CA
Sadr is a menace! Him and his Mahdi army need to get fucked up!! Malaki is an empty suit who bows down to the Shiite contingent. . . .

US and Iraqi troops are takin' it the insurgents, huge battle in Baghdad today! If we (USA and Iraqi government) take back Baghdad from the insurgents, things will drastically get better! Not too mention taking the fight to Sadr and his army! Granted only putting 20 or 30 thousand isnt that much of an increase, I would suggest at least 80 to 90 thousand troops in and around Baghdad.  But hey, anything is better than doing nothing and letting the Sunnis/Shiites continue to run murder inc.  W E   N E E D  T O   W  I  N !!  NOT CUT AND RUN!

THE ROE NEEDS TO BE LIFTED SO OUR TROOPS CAN HANDLE BUSINESS!!! P E R I O D

Last edited by fadedsteve (2007-01-09 16:24:06)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6500|Global Command

CameronPoe wrote:

ATG wrote:

He may be popular, but only with the Shia.
LOL. Shi'a representing what percentage of the entire population of Iraq?? lol.

I think you need to realise that Moqtada Al Sadr is IMMUNE. Touch him - you're reeeaaalllllyyy fucked. Arrest, exile or otherwise.
Thats what people said about Saddam. We are going to war with Iran, you know. Sadr is Shia, as are the radical Mullahs in Iran.
As they go, so should he.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6526

ATG wrote:

Well what were doing now is equivilent to winding up a spinning top ( removal of saddam ) and letting it loose in a room with a house of cards ( stability in the mid-east ).

What are we going to do; " well, we've taken out your dictator see you around!"

We've tried the lite foot print approach and its gotten us nowhere and is getting many Iraqis killed.
A velvet fist in an iron glove we are not, it's more like a iron fist  with a velvet glove.

We've given them the chance to unify and behave; they have failed.
We are not pulling out of the area and the status quo isn't working.


The U.S. military is a massive lumbering beast, capable of security if the velvet gloves are removed.
The only two possibilities are to take the gloves off or bail. And we are not bailing anytime soon.
ATG. No. No. No. I thought of all people on this forum that you would understand patriotism. Becoming more strongarm will only make people more militant and more fervently anti-American. When the Brits shot innocent civilians in the back in Derry City in 1969 because the Irish wouldn't quieten down what happened? Unrivalled carnage. The crueller the occupier, the crueller the backlash, the less responsive the public is to overtures from the occupier and the worse the problems become. Fire will be fought with fire. Unless you are advocating a genocide of Iraqis then the USA's aims for Iraq will not be realised. Empathise for a minute, for Christ's sake.

PS I would hardly call it a 'lite foot print' given the carnage there....
{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank
U.S. > Iran
+497|6548|Florida

fadedsteve wrote:

Sadr is a menace! Him and his Mahdi army need to get fucked up!! Malaki is an empty suit who bows down to the Shiite contingent. . . .

US and Iraqi troops are takin' it the insurgents, huge battle in Baghdad today! If we (USA and Iraqi government) take back Baghdad from the insurgents, things will drastically get better! Not too mention taking the fight to Sadr and his army! Granted only putting 20 or 30 thousand isnt that much of an increase, I would suggest at least 80 to 90 thousand troops in and around Baghdad.  But hey, anything is better than doing nothing and letting the Sunnis/Shiites continue to run murder inc.  W E   N E E D  T O   W  I  N !!  NOT CUT AND RUN!

THE ROE NEEDS TO BE LIFTED SO OUR TROOPS CAN HANDLE BUSINESS!!! P E R I O D
There have been battles there for the past few days.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6526

ATG wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

ATG wrote:

He may be popular, but only with the Shia.
LOL. Shi'a representing what percentage of the entire population of Iraq?? lol.

I think you need to realise that Moqtada Al Sadr is IMMUNE. Touch him - you're reeeaaalllllyyy fucked. Arrest, exile or otherwise.
Thats what people said about Saddam. We are going to war with Iran, you know. Sadr is Shia, as are the radical Mullahs in Iran.
As they go, so should he.
Saddam was a deeply unpopular figure with the majority of Iraqis as he was a Sunni, oppressing the majority Shias. Shias are the majority. Fuck with Al Sadr, lose Iraq forever.
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6461|Menlo Park, CA

{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

Sadr is a menace! Him and his Mahdi army need to get fucked up!! Malaki is an empty suit who bows down to the Shiite contingent. . . .

US and Iraqi troops are takin' it the insurgents, huge battle in Baghdad today! If we (USA and Iraqi government) take back Baghdad from the insurgents, things will drastically get better! Not too mention taking the fight to Sadr and his army! Granted only putting 20 or 30 thousand isnt that much of an increase, I would suggest at least 80 to 90 thousand troops in and around Baghdad.  But hey, anything is better than doing nothing and letting the Sunnis/Shiites continue to run murder inc.  W E   N E E D  T O   W  I  N !!  NOT CUT AND RUN!

THE ROE NEEDS TO BE LIFTED SO OUR TROOPS CAN HANDLE BUSINESS!!! P E R I O D
There have been battles there for the past few days.
True, but I believe today was big body bag day for the insurgents!!

They had at least 50 dead apparently in street battles, which tells me we are stepping up the street cleansing!! Which needs to be done!! We need to take these miserable terrorist fuckers OUT!

Again, we need to take the powder puff gloves off and wax that ass! Launch a big MOAB on Sadr's fat ass while his is praying in his mosque! Fuck that piece of shit! Why is Malaki protecting him and his army from us?? I dont get that at all. . . .
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6461|Menlo Park, CA

CameronPoe wrote:

ATG wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:


LOL. Shi'a representing what percentage of the entire population of Iraq?? lol.

I think you need to realise that Moqtada Al Sadr is IMMUNE. Touch him - you're reeeaaalllllyyy fucked. Arrest, exile or otherwise.
Thats what people said about Saddam. We are going to war with Iran, you know. Sadr is Shia, as are the radical Mullahs in Iran.
As they go, so should he.
Saddam was a deeply unpopular figure with the majority of Iraqis as he was a Sunni, oppressing the majority Shias. Shias are the majority. Fuck with Al Sadr, lose Iraq forever.
Wrong, kill Sadr and we might gain some headway!! He is in total bed with the Iranians, they are giving him arms, intellegence, and money! He needs to be taken out. . . .
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6526

fadedsteve wrote:

{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

Sadr is a menace! Him and his Mahdi army need to get fucked up!! Malaki is an empty suit who bows down to the Shiite contingent. . . .

US and Iraqi troops are takin' it the insurgents, huge battle in Baghdad today! If we (USA and Iraqi government) take back Baghdad from the insurgents, things will drastically get better! Not too mention taking the fight to Sadr and his army! Granted only putting 20 or 30 thousand isnt that much of an increase, I would suggest at least 80 to 90 thousand troops in and around Baghdad.  But hey, anything is better than doing nothing and letting the Sunnis/Shiites continue to run murder inc.  W E   N E E D  T O   W  I  N !!  NOT CUT AND RUN!

THE ROE NEEDS TO BE LIFTED SO OUR TROOPS CAN HANDLE BUSINESS!!! P E R I O D
There have been battles there for the past few days.
True, but I believe today was big body bag day for the insurgents!!

They had at least 50 dead apparently in street battles, which tells me we are stepping up the street cleansing!! Which needs to be done!! We need to take these miserable terrorist fuckers OUT!

Again, we need to take the powder puff gloves off and wax that ass! Launch a big MOAB on Sadr's fat ass while his is praying in his mosque! Fuck that piece of shit! Why is Malaki protecting him and his army from us?? I dont get that at all. . . .
Come back to me in a week with the victory party details. lol
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6500|Global Command

CameronPoe wrote:

ATG wrote:

Well what were doing now is equivilent to winding up a spinning top ( removal of saddam ) and letting it loose in a room with a house of cards ( stability in the mid-east ).

What are we going to do; " well, we've taken out your dictator see you around!"

We've tried the lite foot print approach and its gotten us nowhere and is getting many Iraqis killed.
A velvet fist in an iron glove we are not, it's more like a iron fist  with a velvet glove.

We've given them the chance to unify and behave; they have failed.
We are not pulling out of the area and the status quo isn't working.


The U.S. military is a massive lumbering beast, capable of security if the velvet gloves are removed.
The only two possibilities are to take the gloves off or bail. And we are not bailing anytime soon.
ATG. No. No. No. I thought of all people on this forum that you would understand patriotism. Becoming more strongarm will only make people more militant and more fervently anti-American. When the Brits shot innocent civilians in the back in Derry City in 1969 because the Irish wouldn't quieten down what happened? Unrivalled carnage. The crueller the occupier, the crueller the backlash, the less responsive the public is to overtures from the occupier and the worse the problems become. Fire will be fought with fire. Unless you are advocating a genocide of Iraqis then the USA's aims for Iraq will not be realised. Empathise for a minute, for Christ's sake.

PS I would hardly call it a 'lite foot print' given the carnage there....
Compared to what we could do, it's a lite footprint.

Okay. Can somebody explain to me what would happen if we were to withdraw and how that would mak the world a safer place?

I understand what you are saying Cam, but Islamic fanatics with nuclear weapons is not acceptable.
A united Islamic world frankly is not acceptable, and that explains why we removed Saddam. A unstable Middle East, wars amongst those people, keeps them a distant low level threat. Same as when we encouraged war between Iran and Iraq, we knew they would both lose money and people and time in development.
9-11 was bad, but it was a low level event comparred to what they would like to do.
Thank god there is a Sunni/Shia rift, and for as bad as they hate us they hate each other worse.
That is the most profound part of this war imo.
{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank
U.S. > Iran
+497|6548|Florida

fadedsteve wrote:

{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

Sadr is a menace! Him and his Mahdi army need to get fucked up!! Malaki is an empty suit who bows down to the Shiite contingent. . . .

US and Iraqi troops are takin' it the insurgents, huge battle in Baghdad today! If we (USA and Iraqi government) take back Baghdad from the insurgents, things will drastically get better! Not too mention taking the fight to Sadr and his army! Granted only putting 20 or 30 thousand isnt that much of an increase, I would suggest at least 80 to 90 thousand troops in and around Baghdad.  But hey, anything is better than doing nothing and letting the Sunnis/Shiites continue to run murder inc.  W E   N E E D  T O   W  I  N !!  NOT CUT AND RUN!

THE ROE NEEDS TO BE LIFTED SO OUR TROOPS CAN HANDLE BUSINESS!!! P E R I O D
There have been battles there for the past few days.
True, but I believe today was big body bag day for the insurgents!!

They had at least 50 dead apparently in street battles, which tells me we are stepping up the street cleansing!! Which needs to be done!! We need to take these miserable terrorist fuckers OUT!

Again, we need to take the powder puff gloves off and wax that ass! Launch a big MOAB on Sadr's fat ass while his is praying in his mosque! Fuck that piece of shit! Why is Malaki protecting him and his army from us?? I dont get that at all. . . .
Settle down a bit John Wayne.  Im pretty sure we cant just drop a bomb into a mosque.  If enemy combatants are using it to fire at our forces.....then yeah, I think we should be able to level that mosque, but realistically it probably wouldnt happen. 

Its a sticky situation really.  Sadr and shias are big supporters of the government, but are also causing the most trouble for Americans and allies.  I say take the chance on loosing Iraq forever, fuck Sadr.

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