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2007-01-07 15:33:32
[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi
Why walk when you can dance?
+77|7014|sWEEDen
Hmm...well I can´t say I know for sure that the moonlanding is a fake....It just feels like it....I´m sure humans have landed there...but not that time. JFK assasination is for sure a mess....and you are right...we will most surely never know the truth about JFK...and neither the moonlanding.

NASA "lost" the original recordings....my ass they did....
2007-01-07 15:38:51
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6918|Menlo Park, CA

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

I have never stated that we are innocent, in fact I have stated many times we have done the very same mistakes, we did start two WW´s after all, we did colonize many nations, robbing them blank, we did doo slavery. Up north we HAD wikings...and we also HAD colonies...but that was many years ago, it has never been right and never will be.

Most of theese mistakes was comitted many years ago...though some are still in progress I don´t support them at all.

I can´t say all nations in europe has learned their lessons but in general most european nations have.

Dirty politics and war are not the same as co-operating with politics. And most of your politics lead to wars.

Also no nation in europe are claiming their way of freedom and life to be the only and just one to spread across the world (anymore).

Catch up with time.
Of course Europe is claiming their way of life is the way to be lived. . . .They constantly tell the USA that our policies are wrong and that our laws and justice system(s) are barbaric (death penalty).  Oh if we could only live like the Europeans. . . cough cough I'm not movin anytime soon! I actually want to keep my income as opposed to having the government redistribute it!

The USA doesnt tell everyone to live like us, if we did we would be constantly at war! We are simply offering an alternative to a dictatorship, a dictatorship that murdered hundreds of thousands of people. . . . An alternative course to the constant bloodshed in that region of the world for hundreds of years! Granted their is a lot of bloodshed today, but this change will be better in the long run.

Most of our policies lead to wars?? What war(s) outside of Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan have we been involved with directly as a result of our foreign policy?

The one thing we DO need to change in our foreign policy is our blind support for Israel. Granted they are our allies, but we need to let the "baby bird fly out of the nest" if you know what I mean.

Last edited by fadedsteve (2007-01-07 15:39:28)

2007-01-07 15:41:30
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6918|Menlo Park, CA

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

Hmm...well I can´t say I know for sure that the moonlanding is a fake....It just feels like it....I´m sure humans have landed there...but not that time. JFK assasination is for sure a mess....and you are right...we will most surely never know the truth about JFK...and neither the moonlanding.

NASA "lost" the original recordings....my ass they did....
We will, I believe the CIA is waiting to declassify in 2050, from what I have read on the subject.  I assume they are waiting to let all parties die off first before releasing damaging information.
2007-01-07 15:44:13
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

fadedsteve wrote:

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

Hmm...well I can´t say I know for sure that the moonlanding is a fake....It just feels like it....I´m sure humans have landed there...but not that time. JFK assasination is for sure a mess....and you are right...we will most surely never know the truth about JFK...and neither the moonlanding.

NASA "lost" the original recordings....my ass they did....
We will, I believe the CIA is waiting to declassify in 2050, from what I have read on the subject.  I assume they are waiting to let all parties die off first before releasing damaging information.
..or to give them enough time to hide their tracks....
2007-01-07 15:49:56
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6918|Menlo Park, CA

Turquoise wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

Hmm...well I can´t say I know for sure that the moonlanding is a fake....It just feels like it....I´m sure humans have landed there...but not that time. JFK assasination is for sure a mess....and you are right...we will most surely never know the truth about JFK...and neither the moonlanding.

NASA "lost" the original recordings....my ass they did....
We will, I believe the CIA is waiting to declassify in 2050, from what I have read on the subject.  I assume they are waiting to let all parties die off first before releasing damaging information.
..or to give them enough time to hide their tracks....
That is exactly what is happening! lol! They know whats up, they are just waitin it out!
2007-01-07 15:54:52
[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi
Why walk when you can dance?
+77|7014|sWEEDen
You are at war all the time....there are many more conflicts you have started and supported then thoose spoken of...Cuba is one....I´ll try to find some links supporting me....since WW2 USA has more or less been using their "defense" constalty, and you have too...you really think the small amount of taxes you guys pay really is enough for supporting the fighting forces, pay for all infrastructre and you general way of living?

Thats why war is buisness....to rob nations, and make profitable contracts.

European nations are giving advice because we have had all theese laws and done all theese mistakes ourselves.

And for learning that baby bird to fly...you are right, the nest is getting to small for it now...it need to learn how to fly,hunt and defend itself, or perhaps even live in peace with the rest of the birds of prey.
2007-01-07 17:14:20
UGADawgs
Member
+13|6748|South Carolina, US

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

You are at war all the time....there are many more conflicts you have started and supported then thoose spoken of...Cuba is one....I´ll try to find some links supporting me....since WW2 USA has more or less been using their "defense" constalty, and you have too...you really think the small amount of taxes you guys pay really is enough for supporting the fighting forces, pay for all infrastructre and you general way of living?

Thats why war is buisness....to rob nations, and make profitable contracts.

European nations are giving advice because we have had all theese laws and done all theese mistakes ourselves.

And for learning that baby bird to fly...you are right, the nest is getting to small for it now...it need to learn how to fly,hunt and defend itself, or perhaps even live in peace with the rest of the birds of prey.
Europe is lucky that the only superpower is friendly to them. The reason why so many European countries have been able to survive with proportionally lower defense spending and higher social spending is because we fight anyone who tries to threaten Europe. If China were the world's superpower, then it'd be a lot harder for Europe.
2007-01-07 17:37:14
[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi
Why walk when you can dance?
+77|7014|sWEEDen
Soo what threats has there been for europe (but europe itself) since the WW2? The US fighting forces use a vast ammount of european weapons and equipment, Sweden sells you plenty.  Just because we are not at war all the time it doesn´t mean europe has no fighting forces....don´t underestimate the fighting forces of europe...they are bigger then you might beleive.

We will soon see about China, it´s soon gonna be powerful enough for anything,but I still think it´s a bit to far away for starting war with europe and win.

And in many european nations taxes are somewhere around 30%....that itself might explain the social wellfare overhere.

Last edited by [F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi (2007-01-07 17:38:12)

2007-01-07 17:41:15
UGADawgs
Member
+13|6748|South Carolina, US

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

Soo what threats has there been for europe (but europe itself) since the WW2? The US fighting forces use a vast ammount of european weapons and equipment, Sweden sells you plenty.  Just because we are not at war all the time it doesn´t mean europe has no fighting forces....don´t underestimate the fighting forces of europe...they are bigger then you might beleive.

We will soon see about China, it´s soon gonna be powerful enough for anything,but I still think it´s a bit to far away for starting war with europe and win.

And in many european nations taxes are somewhere around 30%....that itself might explain the social wellfare overhere.
Who do you think was counterbalancing the USSR for all that time? And if you count that as an inter-European thing, fine, but remember that a power vacuum never exists for long. If the US were militarily weak, some other nation would step up to take its place. It could be the EU, but they haven't shown any real interest in worldwide military power. However, if it's someone unfriendly to Europe, then Europe will have to go through some radical changes if it doesn't want to be subject to a hostile power.
2007-01-07 18:30:02
[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi
Why walk when you can dance?
+77|7014|sWEEDen
I don´t beleive that communism was such a big threat back then or now...the modern day terrorist have now taken the place of the present communists...It seems USA always must have someone or something to hunt and take actions against...we don´t do it that way in most europe, we go for education, understanding and politics.

But you might be right about the changes... even though most of european nations has a standing army, nations in europe has a different approach considering armed forces, most european nations have a good defense mechanism that can be activated whitin relativly short time.

Such as, stored guns, almost every grown man receive training somewhere around their 20´s, and a quick adaption of many factories to produce ammo, guns , veichles and equipment for the fighting forces. Now that might not be entirely positive when a totaly unexpected attack takes place.

Even if the time for adaption will be short it might not be short enough.

But I still beleive most problems can and should be solved without the help of war.
2007-01-07 18:58:39
Paco_the_Insane
Phorum Phantom
+244|7072|Ohio
https://img295.imageshack.us/img295/7295/bushmaills1.jpg

Last edited by Paco_the_Insane (2007-01-07 18:59:19)

2007-01-07 19:00:31
[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi
Why walk when you can dance?
+77|7014|sWEEDen
Soon he will be all over internets....
2007-01-07 19:20:02
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

UGADawgs wrote:

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

You are at war all the time....there are many more conflicts you have started and supported then thoose spoken of...Cuba is one....I´ll try to find some links supporting me....since WW2 USA has more or less been using their "defense" constalty, and you have too...you really think the small amount of taxes you guys pay really is enough for supporting the fighting forces, pay for all infrastructre and you general way of living?

Thats why war is buisness....to rob nations, and make profitable contracts.

European nations are giving advice because we have had all theese laws and done all theese mistakes ourselves.

And for learning that baby bird to fly...you are right, the nest is getting to small for it now...it need to learn how to fly,hunt and defend itself, or perhaps even live in peace with the rest of the birds of prey.
Europe is lucky that the only superpower is friendly to them. The reason why so many European countries have been able to survive with proportionally lower defense spending and higher social spending is because we fight anyone who tries to threaten Europe. If China were the world's superpower, then it'd be a lot harder for Europe.
This is true.  We also serve as Canada's defense, more or less.  This is why I encourage countries like Canada and Germany to spend more on their militaries.  By allowing America to serve as the world's police, it not only forces us to bloat our military budget (which could be better spent on other things), it puts Europe in a vulnerable position.  The EU should work towards a more significant defense force.  That way, foreign policy becomes more of an international effort -- rather than an American one.
2007-01-08 05:37:21
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|7013|Montreal
Canada does spend on defense. We are not interested in offensive actions like invading Iraq. Hence you have a bloated military budget and we patrol our borders. Offensive military action has nothing to do with so-called defense.
2007-01-08 21:12:48
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

JimmyBotswana wrote:

Canada does spend on defense. We are not interested in offensive actions like invading Iraq. Hence you have a bloated military budget and we patrol our borders. Offensive military action has nothing to do with so-called defense.
Well, it is true that your current PM is finally increasing military spending.  This is a good thing for Canada, since you had some equipment, ships, and aircraft in need of repair or replacement.

I would agree with you that defense forces are very different from offensive ones, but you still need more defensive forces.  If Canada became a more powerful military force in the world, you'd get a lot more respect in international policy decisions.
2007-01-08 21:33:10
iamangry
Member
+59|7072|The United States of America
I think people have fallen off topic here, let me try to bring the discussion back. 
But first, to Jimmy Botswana:  The United States spends a smaller percentage of its GDP on defense than any other major military power, were just so rich that its still more than the next ten people combined   And in matters of continental defense, both Canada and the United States normally make a joint effort i.e. NORAD... look it up.

Anyhow,
The mail.  Is the unwarranted search of people's mail bad?  Most of you have said yes, hell yes.  Some of you have said no, for various reasons.  Reasons like:

1.  I have nothing to hide:  The simple fact of the matter is, yes you do have something to hide.  You see, identity theft has become a serious problem, and with things sent to you via USPS mail people can acquire everything they need to scam you over.  No law abiding person should be afraid of their government as an institution when it comes to personal mail, you're right.  But the government is not just an institution, it is a group of people; good and bad.  I have everything to hide from the bad, as do you.  The federal government employs some 2 million people excluding the military and postal service... rest assured corruption spans the length and breadth of this  government as we have seen with the recent investigations into congressional officials, judges, and even police officers.  Those who are good will try to protect us from the bad, and to do that they NEED tools like warrants and other such stuff. 

2.  Were at war, sacrifices need to be made:  You're damned right were at war.  But you're wrong as to what were at war against.  We are not at war against a hostile nation, we are not at war against a bunch of terrorists.  We are at war against an idea, and if you know any history you will know that such wars are not won exclusively with bombs, tanks, guns or planes.  Such wars are won by maintaining one's own ideas, by not wavering or compromising one's own ideals to make the shooting war easier.  You might say "but we need these sacrifices right now, or else we won't win."  That's bullshit, have more faith in your military, which has the largest technological advantage over its enemies in history.  Those of you who claim we need these sacrifices are the same people who then claim that we have the moral high ground.  If you want to claim the moral high ground then you have to be moral, and actually have it.  This means letting people express themselves anyway they feel, letting the immoral be immoral because its not your business to tell them otherwise so long as they don't harm you, and allowing people to have privacy and secrecy in their lives because we all have things that we regret and wish to keep secret.  When we fought fascism in world war 2 we fought an idea.  In order to defeat that idea, we had to destroy its army.  But that did not signal victory over fascism, the reconstruction of Europe and Japan through the Marshall plan signaled the victory over fascism.  Now we fight "terrorism", but more specifically we are fighting religious extremism.  We are fighting a complex doctrine of rules that would destroy the ideas of personal freedom and privacy, ideals which I believe to be sacred to America being America.  If to beat religious extremism we sacrifice the ideals we were defending, do we really win?  Are we still America?  While we might still be America in name and location, we would no longer be America in spirit and so America would be destroyed in order to survive. 

@lowing:  I'm not liberal, I'm American, an American who cares about the ideals we claim to defend just as much as the country itself.  For the ideals are what makes America America, not the people.  Without the ideals, America is just another Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, or Roman Empire.
2007-01-08 22:22:01
Drakef
Cheeseburger Logicist
+117|6789|Vancouver

Turquoise wrote:

JimmyBotswana wrote:

Canada does spend on defense. We are not interested in offensive actions like invading Iraq. Hence you have a bloated military budget and we patrol our borders. Offensive military action has nothing to do with so-called defense.
Well, it is true that your current PM is finally increasing military spending.  This is a good thing for Canada, since you had some equipment, ships, and aircraft in need of repair or replacement.

I would agree with you that defense forces are very different from offensive ones, but you still need more defensive forces.  If Canada became a more powerful military force in the world, you'd get a lot more respect in international policy decisions.
Ha! Stephen Harper doing something good for Canada?

We don't need a bigger military, and certainly not "amphibious landing craft" that Harper has suggested. We shouldn't even be in Afghanistan now. What we have in a strong economy, and as part of the G8, is all we need for international clout.

 

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