Who said I was a philopshy major? The classes I took were to fulfill my liberal ed requirements. In college I was a business major, but now I'm an IT guy.Colfax wrote:
Maybe i don't have time? I am at work. I'm not a philosophy major i took two classes. Critical thinking and Ethics. Give me a bit here.
I don't believe people on a game forum can completely nullify the fact that free will and God being all knowing is not possible. Just because people say it is true doesn't mean i believe it.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
LOL, this is just so funny. It takes me back to my philosophy classes is college. The professor noted that ultimately most debates about religion end up in one of two ways. Those on the religious side refuse to further discuss the matter, or try to slide by on the old, "God is beyond our understanding." argument.
1. First we talk about free will and God being all knowing. More than one person basically laid out the logic of how having true free will and an all knowing God are not possible.
2. Then I give another example of a paradox, where God cannot truly be all powerful. You didn't even attempt to respond to this.
3. After getting beaten over the head with logic, that your Sims game analogy simply couldn't stand up to, you now do the fall back. In this case you didn't decide to simply not discuss the issue further, you opted for the other. As your argument crumbles you actually attempt to call in question the definition of free will, then swing for the fences with the argument that God, and God's powers, may simply be beyond our understanding. Funny how we are so quick to assign such absolute terms to something we are incapable of understanding. Funny how we are so quick to do harm in the name of God, when we can't really understand him or his plan.
Alas, your argument fit right into the nice mold that most religious discussions follow.
So sorry i didn't enlighten you with my philosophical take of the situation. Honestly I believe in free will and the scope of understanding may be over my and your head of actual understanding. God in general is over 'mans' head. Because how could our brain comprehend something that created the brain itself.
I believe it this way you believe it that way. I want to see other individuals opinions now.
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didn't say you were a philosophy major i said i am not one don't insinuate
Last edited by Colfax (2006-12-15 08:40:27)
How come you all seem to assume that God knowing all proves the fact that we didn't make those decisions ourselves?
Didn't Einstein (or some other scientists beyond my level of knowledge) believe that time travel (or viewing) was possible, since they didn't see it as a line that's impossible to affect? If so, maybe God's powerful enough to do so, but by his VIEWING the future (or our intentions, or our choices) does not mean that he FORCED that future to happen.
Thus free will caused events to happen one way, and knowledge of what happens does not mean that YOU caused it to happen that way. If so, then by VIEWING (or knowing) the future you could VIEW what you wanted, since you FORCED it to be free will-less.
Didn't Einstein (or some other scientists beyond my level of knowledge) believe that time travel (or viewing) was possible, since they didn't see it as a line that's impossible to affect? If so, maybe God's powerful enough to do so, but by his VIEWING the future (or our intentions, or our choices) does not mean that he FORCED that future to happen.
Thus free will caused events to happen one way, and knowledge of what happens does not mean that YOU caused it to happen that way. If so, then by VIEWING (or knowing) the future you could VIEW what you wanted, since you FORCED it to be free will-less.
Hmmm, maybe so. I for one believe what I believe, and so do you. That to me is free will. Sucks to you on Judgement day.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
Alas, your argument fit right into the nice mold that most religious discussions follow.
What I don't get from all Religious folks is (I respect your beliefs, but don't share) why does an omnipotent God not apply all his power over individual choices, voiding free will? If that's the case, then he isn't that omnipotent. So, there's a paradox here, if God is omnipotent and knows the choices that individuals will make, then there's no free will. If he still gives individuals the power to choose then he is not omnipotent. Unless you are Methodists, you can't believe in God and free will.
I make my own choices in BF2. I could go huddle in a corner under a gas station roof but I choose to go to the Hotel. Now, Command & Conquer on the other hand.....sergeriver wrote:
How do you know you aren't a BF2 soldier? Did God give you free will in person? If he created everything, including you, and he knows everything, including what you will do, where does your free will go?DesertFox423 wrote:
In Christianity, the belief is that God gave us free will. We don't believe we're the little guys in RTS games and God is the player. ----MUST...GO....TO...JERUSALEM---- Sorry about that
I believe the term used is "limited omnipotent." You're not a slave (although some might say that). You can choose not to believe in the whole thing if you wish. It's like God can do that, but doesn't because you do have free will.sergeriver wrote:
What I don't get from all Religious folks is (I respect your beliefs, but don't share) why does an omnipotent God not apply all his power over individual choices, voiding free will? If that's the case, then he isn't that omnipotent. So, there's a paradox here, if God is omnipotent and knows the choices that individuals will make, then there's no free will. If he still gives individuals the power to choose then he is not omnipotent. Unless you are Methodists, you can't believe in God and free will.
Last edited by DesertFox423 (2006-12-15 13:19:34)
Can God create a rock too heavy for God himself to lift?
On one hand, he's omnipotent, so he should, by definition of omnipotence.
On the other, he's omnipotent, so he should be able to lift it (thereby making the statement false), again by definition of omnipotence.
On one hand, he's omnipotent, so he should, by definition of omnipotence.
On the other, he's omnipotent, so he should be able to lift it (thereby making the statement false), again by definition of omnipotence.
I'm not religious, but free will is an illusion. Everything is predetermined at a quantumlevel.
Once again, why do people assume that if someone is capable of acting that he MUST, so since he didn't he is unable to? Can anyone comprehend that it's possible that God chooses NOT to prevent bad choices being made? That by interfering with free will then we have no reason to live?
Isn't that chaos theory or quantum physics and such? Things like "there are 1000s of possibilites for everything and you create the one you see" or "If you're looking at a ball and then you look awaythe ball does not exist, only as a possibility, until you look back."jonsimon wrote:
I'm not religious, but free will is an illusion. Everything is predetermined at a quantumlevel.
I dont see how religion basically means your a lwoer form of life, since we have no free will, those without religion apparently do? How do those without religion know if god is actually there controlling their lives? Just becasue your personally refuse religion does not mean you arent under its control. If god is all knowing and all powerful then he controls all, even those who do not accept him. Honestly, I beleive free will as in you have a choice in yourown matters, you decide what you do. Just becasue someone knows whats going to happen doesnt mean you still did not make the choice in your own mind.
+1[RDH]Warlord wrote:
Once again, why do people assume that if someone is capable of acting that he MUST, so since he didn't he is unable to? Can anyone comprehend that it's possible that God chooses NOT to prevent bad choices being made? That by interfering with free will then we have no reason to live?
This statement has been repeated again and again. However, it belies the belief that God is omnipotent. A being that is all-powerful would know all. Before creating men, he would know for eternity what choices would be made. How is it free will if the decision are already made? If he indeed is omnipotent, then he is responsible for what choices we make. He would know that he would be largely rejected, before and after Jesus, whom he would know he would have to send for our sins. If he created us, he would know how we would operate, what would occur.[RDH]Warlord wrote:
Once again, why do people assume that if someone is capable of acting that he MUST, so since he didn't he is unable to? Can anyone comprehend that it's possible that God chooses NOT to prevent bad choices being made? That by interfering with free will then we have no reason to live?
What drives a deity to ensure free will? Why would he accomplish such a task? And after creation, why does he care so much that we all worship him? To what end does free will accomplish if there is a righteous path already existing that one must follow, and that life on earth is but a speck on one's life if there is an afterlife? He would know our mistakes, and know that so many would go to Hell. Indeed, upon this thinking, I have to conclude that under a religion such as this, I was created without a chance to redeem my sins, but only to exist in Hell, because that is my end under Christianity. Why would a god do such a thing as create beings that would only suffer? Beyond that, why did he create such a flawed world, one that revolves with violence and terrible acts, and why does he continue to have us live in such a state? Why create life only to have it exist as a test of faith? The meaning of life...To have faith? Why? Can you imagine yourself as a deity, creating a race, knowing what they would do, insist that they worship you, and then punish those who don't?
If a god's purpose is to make himself known to only ensure that we worship him, does that not seem inappropriate for a deity? What assurances do we have that a god would reveal himself, and that man could comprehend him and begin a religion? Surely, he would know that so many religions would be founded, many on the basis of violent conversions. We cannot assume that because science cannot explain all, religion is right. By all means, both could be wrong in the explaination of the world. After all, who created God? What is the purpose of God, and his meaning of life? We very well could be unknowing in the ultimate questions. How arrogant that we assume that we already know.
Myself, I have answered these questions, and I believe there is no god. Outside our universe, I know naught what exists, or why anything exists. Perhaps that is what man knows- Nothing. What is existance? What is life? Why are they in the state they are? I consider myself an atheist, for I don't believe that if there is some higher power out there, he would not have religions to honour him, nor would have Heaven or Hell, but a rather unsupernatural ending. Science may indeed explain our universe, or what occurs when we die, and all we need to concern ourselves about is how we live today, in the world we are sure exists, and we need to improve it.
If you believe in a fire-and-brimstone Hell, then yeah, it kinda doesn't make sense. Why create people that he KNOWS mind-you that some (or maybe many) would end up being punished? I don't believe in a punishing hell, though. After death, we are also given a chance there to, once we see the whole picture, "repent" so to speak.
But still, good points. If the God we prefer to believe in, who's acts cannot be comprehended, then why do we ATTEMPT to? I say, just live life the best you can, and find out after death if you did right.
But still, good points. If the God we prefer to believe in, who's acts cannot be comprehended, then why do we ATTEMPT to? I say, just live life the best you can, and find out after death if you did right.
Why do you care if your child loves you or not? I don't think that He wants people to WORSHIP him, just to acknowledge that He is responsible for all the things in life, and respect him for it....after creation, why does he care so much that we all worship him?...
Then why must we adhere to a doctrine, one so strict that those who defy the rules must be punished? I realize you believe differently, but I have heard too many times a Christian uttering the threat of Hell.[RDH]Warlord wrote:
Why do you care if your child loves you or not? I don't think that He wants people to WORSHIP him, just to acknowledge that He is responsible for all the things in life, and respect him for it....after creation, why does he care so much that we all worship him?...
Your analogy was terrible. First, you must recognize that deities are different than men, at least in our perspective of religion. Secondly, children are not the same as the creations of a deity. Besides, the path that religion has led us is far different than the upbringing of a human child by his or her parents. Respect of a parent is earned by their care and attention, while the respect of a deity seems rather childish, if he insists upon it, on top of a ridiculous set of rules.
Take a hungry 4 year-old and sit them at the dining table. Place in front of them a plate of vegetables that they don't like on the left and a bowl of their favorite ice cream on the right. Anyone can tell you that the kid will take the ice cream, but does our foreknowledge of the choice mean they have no free will?
Yet again, the child analogy does not work. The deity in question knows definitively what will occur, not an educated guess as you write of. He knew what would happen even before creation, and knows what will happen for all time. If his true intention is for life to continue with absolute free will, why continue with the charade of life, heaven and hell? He knows what will occur, and knows that this 'test' of life proves nothing but what he already knows. We cannot choose if the choice is already made, and an attempt by a god to have his creations worship him will have the deity already in realization of what will happen to each and every one of us. Why insist upon religion and worship, if he knows who will worship him? Why insist upon religion if these choices were made by the god in his creation, and knowing what every person would do? Why have life to test us, if he already knows? The god who creates life to worship him, if he knows who will and who will not, has not created free will but only fulfilled what he has decided what will happen. If he is omnipotent, he decides all.The Stillhouse Kid wrote:
Take a hungry 4 year-old and sit them at the dining table. Place in front of them a plate of vegetables that they don't like on the left and a bowl of their favorite ice cream on the right. Anyone can tell you that the kid will take the ice cream, but does our foreknowledge of the choice mean they have no free will?
There is no such thing as "free will" in monoteistic religions! christianity is a great example for that!
>>>BF3 Central<<<
The fact is that God knows before you are even born what your morals will be. Thus when you are born everything you do is predetermined, you have no choice as you have no choice over your morals, thus there is no free will under god.[RDH]Warlord wrote:
Just because some people are doomed to hell does not mean that God was powerless to save them.
Sure, he knows that someone is going to murder another person. But actually stepping in and stopping it before it happens DESTROYS free will. I believe that movie about the future predicting police (can't remember the name, FFS!) is a pretty good example here.
God knows what we're going to do, but does nothing to prevent you from doing it in the first place. He's not going to approve of your choice, but he's not going to stop you. It's like a disapproving parent. They'll be sad you want a tattoo, but they'll just sigh and let you do it.
Why is everyone always trying to disprove religions? Just leave us alone...
I dont think you understand the principle of what "God" means. If there is a god he knows everything. I mean EVERYTHING EVER EVER EVER. He made it all. For him there is no time because everything is in his present.[RDH]Warlord wrote:
How come you all seem to assume that God knowing all proves the fact that we didn't make those decisions ourselves?
Didn't Einstein (or some other scientists beyond my level of knowledge) believe that time travel (or viewing) was possible, since they didn't see it as a line that's impossible to affect? If so, maybe God's powerful enough to do so, but by his VIEWING the future (or our intentions, or our choices) does not mean that he FORCED that future to happen.
Thus free will caused events to happen one way, and knowledge of what happens does not mean that YOU caused it to happen that way. If so, then by VIEWING (or knowing) the future you could VIEW what you wanted, since you FORCED it to be free will-less.
We arent. We are stateing that in single god (monothestic) religion there is no free will.Chief_(OwNaGe) wrote:
Why is everyone always trying to disprove religions? Just leave us alone...
But there is...Vilham wrote:
We arent. We are stateing that in single god (monothestic) religion there is no free will.Chief_(OwNaGe) wrote:
Why is everyone always trying to disprove religions? Just leave us alone...
God does not control our actions. He can influence us, but unless you are 'possessed' by the Holy Spirit like, according to the bible, it's the person who makes their own choices. God simply knows what choices you can possibly make at every point in time, and what actions will happen because of them. But it's true, God knows what choices you will make though, and if he knows your actions will eventually lead you to hell, then your name will not be in the book of life.
And I still see people arguing that by somehow knowing what you'll do in the future, it somehow means you don't have free will. Only God knows, not you.
And I still see people arguing that by somehow knowing what you'll do in the future, it somehow means you don't have free will. Only God knows, not you.
Exactly the reason there is no reason to believe in god. If god is making me not believe in him, its his fault and therefore has no right to judge me.r2zoo wrote:
I dont see how religion basically means your a lwoer form of life, since we have no free will, those without religion apparently do? How do those without religion know if god is actually there controlling their lives? Just becasue your personally refuse religion does not mean you arent under its control. If god is all knowing and all powerful then he controls all, even those who do not accept him. Honestly, I beleive free will as in you have a choice in yourown matters, you decide what you do. Just becasue someone knows whats going to happen doesnt mean you still did not make the choice in your own mind.