CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6983

QuadDamage@U wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

Well he does live in San Francisco lowing. . .  .

Which is the biggest liberal shit for brains melting pot in the country!!
Why is it that everyone that disagrees with you is a "liberal?"  I'm sure you would be happy to admit that you are the complete opposite of a liberal, but some of us are actually well balanced.  The world is not black and white.
I'm afraid that in FadedSteve's world sadly things can only be either one thing or the other, black or white, yes or no, 1 or 0, with me or against me. Balance is not a word in his vocabulary. He's an extremist and nothing will change that. It's a bit of a shame that he shows such little respect for fellow countrymen. Maybe he should hoist up the confederate flag and have another shot at it.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-06 13:59:45)

Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7144

lowing wrote:

I am not gunna pass judgment until I see the YOU TUBE conspiracy video and have all the facts!!!!
Thats great... lol...   



I love all the... Bush is out to get me posts...     fyi... you're not important...lol
He isnt looking for BF2 players or hackers...
Love is the answer
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6801|Kyiv, Ukraine
Deny that what I said is true.

Our country was attacked. Our soldiers are fighting and dieing in a foreign land. There are groups of people that have been an d our continuing to plan attacks against the US and its civilians. Yeah we are at war.
We were once at war with a handful of petty criminals whose leaders were trained and funded by the US.  "Terrorists" are criminals, nothing more, nothing less.  They aren't an entity you can declare war on.  This isn't GI Joe vs. Cobra.  Al-Qaeda wasn't even a brand name before 9/11 and the media/administration need to make an easy-to-swallow bogeyman.

Instead of doing an actual full-out forensic criminal investigation following 9/11, we instead got the story that a bunch of half retarded muslim farm boys from Afghanistan managed to completely outwit every last US spy agency, law enforcement agency, civil aviation service, and military branch.  Osama bin Laden, your new bogeyman, the Cobra Commander of the 21st Century...and our excuse for a type of Orwellian "perpetual war".  You will never "end" the war on Terror.  You can't.  The enemies are whomever the leadership says they are and they can change moment to moment.  Kill 3, throw another 3 names to the press.  It doesn't matter how outlandish your claims against them are, how far-fetched their plots are, or even if they were plotting anything at all.  It doesn't matter what you did to provoke them in the first place.  It doesn't even matter that you killed 1000 innocent people in order to kill just one that you define as a "terrorist" out of revenge for an act that nobody fully understands, and spend billions in national treasure doing so.

War IS Peace
Freedom IS Slavery
Ignorance IS Strength

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2007-01-06 14:16:37)

Parker
isteal
+1,452|6822|The Gem Saloon
marconius, i understand where you are coming from and have had frustration with the iraq issue for a long while now. i also understand that afghanistan is becoming a haven for the taliban again. i believe that a troop addition in afghanistan would be the correct move, however i firmly believe that we just cannot leave iraq.
now if iraq was never a threat then i believe we did the wrong thing. was iraq and saddam a threat? alot of people will say yes, and just as many will say no. but what do we have to rely on? the media....unfortunatly none of us know what really is happening. we dont know if iraq was a threat to the US. now i know there is going to be a bunch of people throwing links up and telling me that i am wrong, but what it comes down to is misinformation. the "war on terror" is a buzzword i agree, but it has turned into an asymetrical conflict.
with that being said, whatever the reason was that we invaded that country doesnt really matter in my opinion. what is important now is to help those people. we went in there and ripped apart the government that ran that country. its up to us now to help them establish a new one and get it running at least semi-efficiant. the other reason i think we shouldnt just pull out is the whole vietnam thing. after that conflict the military was a pretty sad sight until powell came in and put his doctrine into place. i fear that if we pull out pretty much looking defeated that same thing will happen, and the timing could not be worse.
anyway, ill check this when i get on later and post again.
UGADawgs
Member
+13|6749|South Carolina, US

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Deny that what I said is true.

Our country was attacked. Our soldiers are fighting and dieing in a foreign land. There are groups of people that have been an d our continuing to plan attacks against the US and its civilians. Yeah we are at war.
We were once at war with a handful of petty criminals whose leaders were trained and funded by the US.  "Terrorists" are criminals, nothing more, nothing less.  They aren't an entity you can declare war on.  This isn't GI Joe vs. Cobra.  Al-Qaeda wasn't even a brand name before 9/11 and the media/administration need to make an easy-to-swallow bogeyman.

Instead of doing an actual full-out forensic criminal investigation following 9/11, we instead got the story that a bunch of half retarded muslim farm boys from Afghanistan managed to completely outwit every last US spy agency, law enforcement agency, civil aviation service, and military branch.  Osama bin Laden, your new bogeyman, the Cobra Commander of the 21st Century...and our excuse for a type of Orwellian "perpetual war".  You will never "end" the war on Terror.  You can't.  The enemies are whomever the leadership says they are and they can change moment to moment.  Kill 3, throw another 3 names to the press.  It doesn't matter how outlandish your claims against them are, how far-fetched their plots are, or even if they were plotting anything at all.  It doesn't matter what you did to provoke them in the first place.  It doesn't even matter that you killed 1000 innocent people in order to kill just one that you define as a "terrorist" out of revenge for an act that nobody fully understands, and spend billions in national treasure doing so.

War IS Peace
Freedom IS Slavery
Ignorance IS Strength
I love how some people think that if they throw in a few quotes from 1984 they look all "edgy" and "zomg rebelling against bush."

I don't know why you're under the delusion that Al-Qaeda was magically created just for 9/11, but it seems so strong that nothing could dissuade you from that thought.
[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi
Why walk when you can dance?
+77|7015|sWEEDen
I´d like to draw lines between 9/11, this new war on terror,the "resumed hostilities" in Iraq and the assasination of JFK....

Anyone in here really think that Oswald did it?

If no....why not....it´s the official truth withheld from the goverment....must be soo right?

Imagine in many years ahead when we all know much more about all this...you think the youth wont beleive we were stupid to fall for the BS, kinda like we doo know about the JFK assasination?
QuadDamage@U
Member
+6|6770|Florida, USA

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

I love all the... Bush is out to get me posts...     fyi... you're not important...lol
He isn't looking for BF2 players or hackers...
Nobody is claiming that Bush is after them specifically.  Only a truly self centered person would think in terms of how this affects only themselves without consideration for how it affects people as a whole.  The fact is, most men with power become corrupt.  Most men will abuse their power if given the opportunity.  Our government is run by such men and without rules and consequences in place to protect the common people the government will eventually abuse their power.  Bush may not be targeting you or I, but he is creating a lot of loopholes that undermine the constitutional rights of the American people.  Furthermore, he is eroding our rights for no justifiable reason.  For example, it has always been accepted that the government can spy on people provided they have a search warrant (checks and balances).  So why is it that he feels the need to change this?  Would it not be easy to get a legal search warrant to spy on a suspected terrorist?

Instead of asking yourself what the common American is trying to hide that they are worried about being spied on; you should be asking yourself what the men in our Government are trying to hide that makes it so inconvenient for them to get a legal search warrant.
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6801|Kyiv, Ukraine
I don't know why you're under the delusion that Al-Qaeda was magically created just for 9/11, but it seems so strong that nothing could dissuade you from that thought.
Because, I was in the intelligence field before 9/11.  Iraq was my specialty.  9/11 changed everything, including a complete re-write of our own history and theirs, as well as the roles of all the players to match our political goals.  You either went along with it or you got out.

Parts of "Al Qaeda" were very well known to us, but there was no (and there still isn't) any "unified entity" or "compartmentalized organization".  They aren't nearly as coordinated as the CIA's anti-communist cells of the 50's and 60's, which seems to be the nearest thing to the fantasy version of "Al Qaeda".  Most of the funding for the various wahabi (radical Sunni Islamic) organizations comes from people that we still consider allies, Pakistani government, Saudi oil and construction magnates, Russian mafia, etc.

Believe me, I wasn't always all cool and edgy.  I come from a long line of family that were all ex-military or defense industry Cold Warriors.  My grandpa still thinks Nixon was screwed (no joke).

I love how some people think that if they throw in a few quotes from 1984 they look all "edgy" and "zomg rebelling against bush."
Yeah, I guess it's only really funny to those who actually read it.  Be careful, it contains a few big words and nothing about a pet goat.  http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/go-goldstein.html

In past ages, a war, almost by definition, was something that sooner or later came to an end, usually in unmistakable victory or defeat. In the past, also, war was one of the main instruments by which human societies were kept in touch with physical reality. All rulers in all ages have tried to impose a false view of the world upon their followers, but they could not afford to encourage any illusion that tended to impair military efficiency. So long as defeat meant the loss of independence, or some other result generally held to be undesirable, the precautions against defeat had to be serious. Physical facts could not be ignored. In philosophy, or religion, or ethics, or politics, two and two might make five, but when one was designing a gun or an aeroplane they had to make four. Inefficient nations were always conquered sooner or later, and the struggle for efficiency was inimical to illusions. Moreover, to be efficient it was necessary to be able to learn from the past, which meant having a fairly accurate idea of what had happened in the past. Newspapers and history books were, of course, always coloured and biased, but falsification of the kind that is practiced today would have been impossible. War was a sure safeguard of sanity, and so far as the ruling classes were concerned it was probably the most important of all safeguards. While wars could be won or lost, no ruling class could be completely irresponsible.

But when war becomes literally continuous, it also ceases to be dangerous. When war is continuous there is no such thing as military necessity. Technical progress can cease and the most palpable facts can be denied or disregarded...The war, therefore, if we judge it by the standards of previous wars, is merely an imposter. It is like the battles between certain ruminant animals whose horns are set at such an angle that they are incapable of hurting one another. But though it is unreal it is not meaningless. It eats up the surplus of consumable goods, and it helps to preserve the special mental atmosphere that a hierarchical society needs. War, it will be seen, is now a purely internal affair. In the past, the ruling groups of all countries, although they might recognize their common interest and therefore limit the destructiveness of war, did fight against one another, and the victor always plundered the vanquished. In our own day they are not fighting against one another at all. The war is waged by each ruling group against its own subjects, and the object of the war is not to make or prevent conquests of territory, but to keep the structure of society intact. The very word 'war', therefore, has become misleading. It would probably be accurate to say that by becoming continuous war has ceased to exist. The peculiar pressure that it exerted on human beings between the Neolithic Age and the early twentieth century has disappeared and been replaced by something quite different.
Orwell's dream come true, a war without end.  The War on Terror.

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2007-01-06 15:01:32)

UGADawgs
Member
+13|6749|South Carolina, US

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

I don't know why you're under the delusion that Al-Qaeda was magically created just for 9/11, but it seems so strong that nothing could dissuade you from that thought.
Because, I was in the intelligence field before 9/11.  Iraq was my specialty.  9/11 changed everything, including a complete re-write of our own history and theirs, as well as the roles of all the players to match our political goals.  You either went along with it or you got out.

Parts of "Al Qaeda" were very well known to us, but there was no (and there still isn't) any "unified entity" or "compartmentalized organization".  They aren't nearly as coordinated as the CIA's anti-communist cells of the 50's and 60's, which seems to be the nearest thing to the fantasy version of "Al Qaeda".  Most of the funding for the various wahabi (radical Sunni Islamic) organizations comes from people that we still consider allies, Pakistani government, Saudi oil and construction magnates, Russian mafia, etc.

Believe me, I wasn't always all cool and edgy.  I come from a long line of family that were all ex-military or defense industry Cold Warriors.  My grandpa still thinks Nixon was screwed (no joke).

I love how some people think that if they throw in a few quotes from 1984 they look all "edgy" and "zomg rebelling against bush."
Yeah, I guess it's only really funny to those who actually read it.  Be careful, it contains a few big words and nothing about a pet goat.  http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/go-goldstein.html
\

I don't believe in the idea of a whole unified organization of terrorists under bin Laden, but it's obvious that over the last 15 years terrorism by Islamic radicals has become a security problem. While Al-Qaeda doesn't have a total monopoly on terrorism, I find it hard to believe that the various groups (the Sunni ones at least) won't have some kind of coordination to carry out strikes on the US, unless there's some personal vendetta between the groups.
The_Shipbuilder
Stay the corpse
+261|6929|Los Angeles

UGADawgs wrote:

I love how some people think that if they throw in a few quotes from 1984 they look all "edgy" and "zomg rebelling against bush."
I love how some people think that they're intelligent because they can take 30 seconds to write a 2-line response to a well-argued, well-constructed point, just because they used "zomg" in their attempt to dismiss and ridicule via hilarious quoted paraphrases.

For example: "zomg my attempt at affectating a blase, witty style of retort was fully predicated on my own ignorant misunderstanding about what someone else was writing"

Last edited by The_Shipbuilder (2007-01-06 15:31:30)

The_Shipbuilder
Stay the corpse
+261|6929|Los Angeles
a whole unified organization of terrorists under bin Laden, but it's obvious that over the last 15 years terrorism by Islamic radicals has become a security problem. While Al-Qaeda doesn't have a total monopoly on terrorism, I find it hard to believe that the various groups (the Sunni ones at least) won't have some kind of coordination to carry out strikes on the US, unless there's some personal vendetta between the groups.
Personally I don't know why Bush's scope ended with just terror. What he should have done was declare a War On Anything Evil And/Or Bad. If we can achieve victory on terror, why not just completely eradicate everything bad, everywhere in the world? Like bad art, and shitty convenience store coffee?




Actually now that I think about it, winning the war on bad convenience store coffee would be infinitely easier and cheaper than winning the war on terror.
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6801|Kyiv, Ukraine
There sometimes is a special vendetta between the groups, but most often it is simply a lack of common agenda and geographic region.  Nearly all of them cite some past US/western power transgression that is a key focus of their revenge.  Very often it is our "strong support of Israel", but other groups are still holding a grudge from Lebanon in the 80's, Bin Laden was peeved that we were camping out in Saudi Arabia (an affront to Islam), Shiite groups are pissed off about us and our mucking about in Iran since the 50's, assassinating elected officials and all.

They're all pissed, they all got grudges, sometimes they share training, but they all have very different agendas.  Sometimes they stay local, sometimes they go international...depends on their agenda and their funding.  Sometimes they train together, sometimes they fight each other, and sometimes one man can belong to 2 or 3 different groups with different goals at the same time.  Arabs are also far more likely to split along ethnic lines than along religious ones as well, and they've been fighting each other this way for 1000's of years.  Turkmen, kurds, arabs, persians, copts, eqyptians, berbers, pashtuns...all different ethnic groups and none necessarily get along with each other when in contact.  They also draw their funding from a lot of sources, like the CIA, opium sales (giving ties to Russian mafia), rich Russian muslims, rich Saudis, competing oil companies, arms trafickers, Israeli intelligence, rogue branches of local governments, redirecting of foreign aid, petty theft and kidnapping for ransom.

Despite this whole laundry list, less than 1% of Muslims could be considered to hold "radical views", with only a tiny fraction of that <1% willing to act upon those views.  Having anti-US sentiment does not necessarily make you a "radical".

BUT, to any big fan of FoxNews...this is all "Al Qaeda".

PS

For the love of god, when will the BF2142 stats start updating again so I can play?

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2007-01-06 15:38:53)

UGADawgs
Member
+13|6749|South Carolina, US

The_Shipbuilder wrote:

UGADawgs wrote:

I love how some people think that if they throw in a few quotes from 1984 they look all "edgy" and "zomg rebelling against bush."
I love how some people think that they're intelligent because they can take 30 seconds to write a 2-line response to a well-argued, well-constructed point, just because they used "zomg" in their attempt to dismiss and ridicule via hilarious quoted paraphrases.

For example: "zomg my attempt at affectating a blase, witty style of retort was fully predicated on my own ignorant misunderstanding about what someone else was writing"
Well-argued posts don't include the same old alarmist crap with lame 1984 references. I could just as use easy Animal Farm references to warn against the dangers of Communism, but there are better ways of conveying those arguments.

Oh, and 3 lines is hardly better than 2. I might as well claim that "I love how people make themselves feel all smug inside by thinking they just totally debunked a comedic line," but then we'd get in some endless cycle.
Hurricane
Banned
+1,153|7058|Washington, DC

Hey Steve, for a guy that supports Bush's war on terror so much, why don't you join the armed services?

I don't think that we're on the road to a fascist regime, but I do wonder why people just sit back and take all of this in stride. Oh no, he's slowly overstepping his boundaries as President and not keeping Checks & Balances. Oh shit, American Idol's back on!

I don't have an inclination to talk with guys who think that terrorists only live in Iraq and Afghanistan (if this were a war on terror, chances are we'd have troops in almost every country in the world), so I'll just post part of the lyrics to an RATM song that I think is quite fitting:

Wake up! Wake up! Wake up! Wake up!
Wake up! Wake up! Wake up! Wake up!

How long? Not long, cause what you reap is what you sow
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6801|Kyiv, Ukraine
Well-argued posts don't include the same old alarmist crap with lame 1984 references. I could just as use easy Animal Farm references to warn against the dangers of Communism, but there are better ways of conveying those arguments.
When you construct a case, you are allowed to add reference to it.  1984 quotes are generally easily recognizable and fairly simple to understand.  I must say that it is hardly alarmist though, we've moved past the "alarm" stage and are now in the "lay down and die" stage, unfortunately...unless you have faith in Democrats to undo every government program enacted since, say, 1933.  http://mojo.calyx.net/~olsen/COMMON/factfict.html

If you insist though, I'll just reference Thomas Paine, or Jefferson, or Locke from now on...at least I won't be "cliche".
The_Shipbuilder
Stay the corpse
+261|6929|Los Angeles

UGADawgs wrote:

Oh, and 3 lines is hardly better than 2. I might as well claim that "I love how people make themselves feel all smug inside by thinking they just totally debunked a comedic line," but then we'd get in some endless cycle.
You forgot "zomg"
[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi
Why walk when you can dance?
+77|7015|sWEEDen
That "with us or against us " stuff Bush said really got into some peoples head apperntly....sad really.

Well I´m for sure not with it...then I must be against...cause he is god right?

"May god be with us" / "Jihad" ....what´s the differance...
UGADawgs
Member
+13|6749|South Carolina, US

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Well-argued posts don't include the same old alarmist crap with lame 1984 references. I could just as use easy Animal Farm references to warn against the dangers of Communism, but there are better ways of conveying those arguments.
When you construct a case, you are allowed to add reference to it.  1984 quotes are generally easily recognizable and fairly simple to understand.  I must say that it is hardly alarmist though, we've moved past the "alarm" stage and are now in the "lay down and die" stage, unfortunately...unless you have faith in Democrats to undo every government program enacted since, say, 1933.  http://mojo.calyx.net/~olsen/COMMON/factfict.html

If you insist though, I'll just reference Thomas Paine, or Jefferson, or Locke from now on...at least I won't be "cliche".
A great deal of points in that article were unsourced, which makes me wonder about the validity of the article. Others were either irrelevant or pointless truisms. The only thing I can really say, though, is that if you're an extreme libertarian, your time has passed. I don't think we'll ever see the extreme diminishment of government that they demand.
[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi
Why walk when you can dance?
+77|7015|sWEEDen
I´d say it´s the neo-con time that is over.....I beleive the last held election says soo.
The Bartenders Son
Member
+42|7121|online
I say we start opening anyones mail at any time... but if you open a bill.. you have to pay it...
KtotheIMMY
Member
+513|7191
Hmm maybe this is why my Mom's Christmas present hasn't arrived yet
13rin
Member
+977|6907

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

I´d say it´s the neo-con time that is over.....I beleive the last held election says soo.
Didn't they say that when Clinton was elected?  Then re-elected?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7079|USA

QuadDamage@U wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

Well he does live in San Francisco lowing. . .  .

Which is the biggest liberal shit for brains melting pot in the country!!
Why is it that everyone that disagrees with you is a "liberal?"  I'm sure you would be happy to admit that you are the complete opposite of a liberal, but some of us are actually well balanced.  The world is not black and white.
That is what I would say to, if I could not actively defend my position on any given issue.
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6919|Menlo Park, CA
I am not an extremist in any sense! I dont go blowing up anything in the name of what I stand for, nor do I threaten any of you because you disagree with me either!!!

I dont buy into the "faded, you just see things in black and white" argument.  I see things for what they are, and make my call! I make my comments based on my on morals and morays, doesnt mean I wont change my thought if given a RESONABLE argument for or against. . . . btw I am pro-choice for all those who think I am some really right wing conservative!

I am simply a proud American that knows EXACTLY where I stand on most political and social issues.  May I submit to you Ronald Reagan and Robert Frost's quotes below to some up how I view liberals! 

I am all for liberty, I just hate brain dead liberals!
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|7122|San Francisco
The point is, fadedsteve, that with all of our attempts to give you an...ahem..."resonable" response, your rebuttals are as far from reasonable as they can get.  We get were you are coming from, we know what you represent and who you are, so why not drop that and add something useful to your argument?

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