GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6799|Kyiv, Ukraine
"They Thought They Were Free"

'nuff said.  Just changed about 5 words from the excerpt and it fits today as well as ever.

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. "One had no time to think. There  was so much going on." "Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting.  It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway.  I do not speak of your "little men", your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you.  Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had.  There was no need to.  Neo-conservatism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about - we were decent people - and kept us so busy with continuous changes and "crises" and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the "terrorists", without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful.  Who wants to think?

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop.  Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic American" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing.  One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men?  Frankly, I do not know.  I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice  - "Resist the beginnings" and "consider the end."  But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings.  One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men?  Things might have changed here before they went as far as they did; they didn't, but they might have.  And everyone counts on that might.

"Your "little men," your Neo-con friends, were not against conservatism in principle.  Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better.  Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Neo-cons attacked the Liberals, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Liberal, and so he did nothing: and then they attacked the working class poor, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a laborer, and he did nothing; and then the sciences, the free press, the Muslims, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing.  And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something - but then it was too late."
http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

This, and 1984, should be required reading in every high school on the planet.  Instead, we get Animal Farm only.
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|7088|USA

DBBrinson1 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm just glad I live in free Europe. Thanks for the help liberating us America. Give us a buzz if you want us to liberate you from your government.
Says the guy with the pic of him touring a communist country..  the other guy bitchin (not that you were Cam)  had "norml" in his profile... Hmmmm, could it be that those who break the law, have something to hide.  Hell, i'm as free as the next guy,  I have nothing to hide..

BTW Cam, do  you think that castro let the mail through unscanned?
Whats wrong with NORML? Thanks for judging me DB. Its appreciated.

Last edited by Mason4Assassin444 (2007-01-05 00:31:02)

fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6917|Menlo Park, CA

Marconius wrote:

Funny, fadedsteve...I could just as easily take your rhetoric and just flip it around and we'd be at a rather quick impasse.

This is a Debate and Serious Talk forum, not a place to berate others just to make a statement.  If your method of debating is just seeing if you can shout louder than the person you are talking to (especially if you disagree with what they stand for), then I am just wasting my time.

I'm with Homeschtar.  I downright refuse to accept "Well, if you aren't doing anything bad, what do you have to worry about" as a legitimate form of justification for transgressions of rights.  People who say that completely miss the point about having rights in the first place.  It only takes a small step first, then more and more with weaker justifications.  Just like tossing a frog into a pot of water and slowly bringing it to a boil.
I think you have missed the point. . .

The point is if the government wants to fuck with you, they WILL fuck with you.  They will slap some proabable cause crap on you, and then your done.  What makes you think we have any rights? I mean seriously. . . if they (government/cops etc) want to mess with you, they will do it with impunity.  Having Bush say this or that, is spin, pure and simple.  I agree we could flip this argument to the other side as well, and we would indeed be at an impass.  But what kills me is the liberal idea that we have rights etc etc etc, and Bush is going to take them and ruin your life blah blah blah blah. . . .that is SPIN!!! It aint gonna happen, believe me, if tommorrow Bush wanted to seriously take our rights, I would side with you.  But he isnt. . . .

Last time I checked it was a democrat (FDR) who put Americans in internment camps for fear of spying. . . . One of our greatest Presidents, the one who happens to be on the penny and 5 dollar bill suspended habius corpus for christs sake!!!!! The fact that our government is checking mail, listening on phone convos, is nothing new. . .they have been doing it FOR YEARS!!

Our rights get affected in times of war, by the way WE ARE AT WAR!!! With an enemy who will try and do its best to subvert our constitutional rights to their benefit every chance they get! Bush is a pawn, how much power do you really think the guy has??? Honestly?? You think he would have gone to war in Iraq if our CIA/British/Russian intelligence agencies didnt push for him to attack Saddam? Not too mention the American public breathing down his neck for answers/results?? The guy is damned if he does, and damned if he doesnt!!
BVC
Member
+325|7122
Show me your papers comrade!

If you ask me, GWB is the biggest commie pinko of them all, he'd be right at home in the USSR...
Chorcai
Member
+49|7074|Ireland
"George W. Bush had issued over 108 signing statements containing more than 505 constitutional challenges."

Hmmm now thats fucked up, 505 challenges.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7077|USA

The_Shipbuilder wrote:

Marconius wrote:

I'm with Homeschtar.  I downright refuse to accept "Well, if you aren't doing anything bad, what do you have to worry about" as a legitimate form of justification for transgressions of rights.  People who say that completely miss the point about having rights in the first place.  It only takes a small step first, then more and more with weaker justifications.  Just like tossing a frog into a pot of water and slowly bringing it to a boil.
Saved me a post, +1
Well I think it is funny how the liberals accuse the administration of "scare tactics" when dealing with terrorism. Never mind the ACTUAL events of terrorism that has taken place around the world. We are suppose to believe that it isn't all that bad and that it is being over exaggerated for Bush's benefit.

THEN, we have to listen to all this bullshit about how the Patriot Act is destroying our Constitution, how wire-tapping means BUSH is listening in on your grandma telling you her apple pie recipe. Bush's goons are hiding in our closets and under our beds. YOU wanna accuse BUSH of scare tactics???!!!

The truth is, the "over exaggerated" terrorism HAS affected you, I will also bet that if not you, you know someone who was DIRECTLY affected by terrorism and you have not been affected by wire taps one bit. If so how?  ............Luccccyyyyyyyy ju got some 'splaining to dooooooooooooooo.

Last edited by lowing (2007-01-05 03:46:04)

BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7194
Bush & CO are more afraid of American citizens than terrorists.
aardfrith
Δ > x > ¥
+145|7219

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm just glad I live in free Europe. Thanks for the help liberating us America. Give us a buzz if you want us to liberate you from your government.
Interesting you say that.  MI5 has been routinely examining some mail for decades.

My brother, when we were both of school age, went on a school trip to Russia.  He then started writing to a Russian exchange student and then responses all came through a particular sorting office in London, often opened and resealed in "Oops this item was damaged" packing.
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|7073
If they need to go through shit to prevent terrorists attacks from happening then let them. I'd rather have my family be alive then sit around complaining about my rights being violated. Being alive is more important than absolute freedom to me(which is a pathetic ideal). And yes, this shit affects me personally. My brother and sister have pictures of them way up on the towers about one month before 911 happened. I went out to visit a week later. I'm not saying this to gain sympathy from 911. I'm just pointing out that it could've just as easily happened to me.

What would you rather have? The government be able to listen in on a call that may prevent that from happening, or know that your own personal freedom led to thousands of lives being lost.

Now, if the government was using this information in a way other than protection and prevention, I would be against all this. Fortunately I'm not a paranoid idiot.

To sum it up, the freedom to life is more important to me than the freedom of privacy and I'm whiling to sacrifice some privacy to ensure life because without life I have neither privacy or life.

Last edited by Ajax_the_Great1 (2007-01-05 04:24:48)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6981

aardfrith wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm just glad I live in free Europe. Thanks for the help liberating us America. Give us a buzz if you want us to liberate you from your government.
Interesting you say that.  MI5 has been routinely examining some mail for decades.

My brother, when we were both of school age, went on a school trip to Russia.  He then started writing to a Russian exchange student and then responses all came through a particular sorting office in London, often opened and resealed in "Oops this item was damaged" packing.
The governments of the UK and France are pretty much the only European governments who seriously engage in those kind of things these days I'd say. Maybe be Spain too (with respect to the Basque Country Liberation Movement).

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-05 04:11:49)

Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,755|7119
I'm gonna start sending baby powder in the mail to see if the government actually finds the "threat."

Last edited by Superior Mind (2007-01-05 04:12:56)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6981

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Now, if the government was using this information in a way other than protection and prevention, I would be against all this. Fortunately I'm not a paranoid idiot.
Oh yeah - I forgot - politicians never act in a corrupt manner. My personal details and correspondences are in safe hands...
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|7073

CameronPoe wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Now, if the government was using this information in a way other than protection and prevention, I would be against all this. Fortunately I'm not a paranoid idiot.
Oh yeah - I forgot - politicians never act in a corrupt manner. My personal details and correspondences are in safe hands...
I think you fall under paranoid idiot. Or maybe just someone who likes to stir the pot.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6981

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Now, if the government was using this information in a way other than protection and prevention, I would be against all this. Fortunately I'm not a paranoid idiot.
Oh yeah - I forgot - politicians never act in a corrupt manner. My personal details and correspondences are in safe hands...
I think you fall under paranoid idiot. Or maybe just someone who likes to stir the pot.
I think maybe you're paranoid about terrorism.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-05 05:28:36)

aardfrith
Δ > x > ¥
+145|7219

Superior Mind wrote:

I'm gonna start sending baby powder in the mail to see if the government actually finds the "threat."
If I thought you were serious, I'd advise against it.  But I know you're not, so I won't tell you that we had a major security incident at work when someone found a pile of white powder (turned out to be icing sugar) in our library.  Evacuation, paramedics, frantic phone calls to people who were on a train to London but had been in the library earlier.  Gee, that was a fun day.

I'm quite sure it's against the law.  Probably counts as terrorism.  But you're not going to do it so I'm not telling you this.
JahManRed
wank
+646|7054|IRELAND

Ahhh, freedom, liberty, democracy...........the American way.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7267|Cologne, Germany

I find it funny that in a country whose people are allowed to have firearms and form armed militias to protect them from their own government, those exact people are sitting there doing nothing while said government is taking their rights away one by one.

Where will it stop, I ask you ? I wonder what would happen if Bush suddenly decided that he'd like to get rid off the 2nd amendment, because it might help potential terrorists in the US to get their hands on firearms...

How many of these precious rights are you willing to sacrifice for a little security ? Habeas Corpus ? Warrants ? Judges ? Juries ? Who really needs that ?

If I remember correctly, Nazi-Germany was a very safe place, too...well, at least until WWII broke out...

THere is a saying, can't really recall the exact words or by whom it was, but it has been quoted a lot lately, with all the talk about freedom and security.

"those who are willing to sacrifice a little freedom for a little security, deserve neither and will lose both"

maybe one of the US guys can fill me in on the exact text and its origin...

Don't let your government fool you. Terrorists couldn't care less about wiretapping, e-mail or regular mail scanning. Do you really think if someone were to professionally plan an attack on a target in the US, they'd be talking about it openly on the phone ?
There is no 100% security. If a well-organized group of terrorists is intent upon conducting terrorist activities in any country, there is little hope to stop them ahead. Even before 09/11, the US had one of the most sophisticated security organizations in the world, and still could not prevent the attack from happening.

Opening regular americans' mail is going to help shit.

I am not saying you should do nothing to stop the terrorists, but what "rights" and "freedoms" are you claiming to defend in the War on Terror, if you have lost them yourselves ?
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6799|Kyiv, Ukraine
"those who are willing to sacrifice a little freedom for a little security, deserve neither and will lose both"
Happily, the original quote was from Benjamin Franklin, author, philosopher, Founding Father, diplomat, Declaration of Independence and Constitutional signatory.  The quote is often paraphrased, but this is the exact wording of the original.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

It's very succinct though and the meaning changes little regardless of the paraphrasing.

He's also got another great quote that would hit right at home in Germany

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|7120|San Francisco

Ben Franklin wrote:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Thank you GorillaTicTacs.  After reading through all of those posts who say "just let them do it," I came right back in here to post just that.  As I said before, whether or not you are directly affected by the initiatives that slink around the Constitution in any way possible, the point is it is still Happening.  Even if you don't do anything subversive, rights are still being infringed.  Those most affected by terrorism are those who keep trying to enact their own versions of what "will keep us safe" and those who call the Constitution "just a goddamned piece of paper."

fadedsteve, did you really just say that we Americans have no rights and that Bush can do anything he wants just because we ar at war?  I believe we are in an occupation, not a war.  We aren't all part of the military; our rights as Americans still stand. 

I guess it's perfectly fine for you to think that a military action brought upon by false pretenses is justifiable as long as we lose rights to "stay safe" and so Bush can get whatever he wants done "in our interest."  If you can't see how sinister this all is, by dragging the country into an unrelated military action by using the fervor after 9/11, and then claiming that he has more power than usual due to it being "wartime," well...I don't know what to tell you.

Oh, and don't even attempt to compare WWII to today.  Absolute apples and oranges there.  We were actually attacked by a coherent enemy and a full country back then, whereas we are occupying a country that had nothing to do with our own attack (no matter how many loose ties you try to find) and are currently losing American lives to our own Manifest Destiny and imperialism all over again (not to mention resource control...soldiers protecting the American company contractors?  Go 'war' profiteering!)

Stop apologizing for Bush.  Read the PNAC sometime and see what he fully agreed with and is pushing for (though is finally hindered, for the nation's sake).
EVieira
Member
+105|6904|Lutenblaag, Molvania

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

This, and 1984, should be required reading in every high school on the planet.  Instead, we get Animal Farm only.
Totally agree. But Animal Farm should remain, its great.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
splixx
ChupaCABRA
+53|7165|Omaha, Nebraska

BN wrote:

Bush & CO are more afraid of American citizens than terrorists.
Bingo...

He is terrible. Or should I say the whole crew.
Kung Jew
That one mod
+331|7171|Houston, TX
The executive branch shall construe subsection 404(c) of title 39, as enacted by subsection 1010(e) of the act, which provides for opening of an item of a class of mail otherwise sealed against inspection, in a manner consistent, to the maximum extent permissible, with the need to conduct searches in exigent circumstances, such as to protect human life and safety against hazardous materials, and the need for physical searches specifically authorized by law for foreign intelligence collection.

This is not a matter of me being afraid of what is in my mail or what others will think of the contents, but a concern of the government ignoring/compromising my basic rights as a citizen of this country.  If they take this right away too, what is next?

KJ
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6981

Kung Jew wrote:

The executive branch shall construe subsection 404(c) of title 39, as enacted by subsection 1010(e) of the act, which provides for opening of an item of a class of mail otherwise sealed against inspection, in a manner consistent, to the maximum extent permissible, with the need to conduct searches in exigent circumstances, such as to protect human life and safety against hazardous materials, and the need for physical searches specifically authorized by law for foreign intelligence collection.

This is not a matter of me being afraid of what is in my mail or what others will think of the contents, but a concern of the government ignoring/compromising my basic rights as a citizen of this country.  If they take this right away too, what is next?

KJ
Too true: 'what is next?'

Once an important taboo has been broken or a core principle abandoned even so much as once it's a slippery slope downwards from there.

I wonder did the people of Germany realise what fate would befall them when their government decided it would be a good idea 'for the public good' to have Jews labelled with yellow stars on their outer garments? Modern times are eerily reminiscent of the climate of fear and suspicion he engineered to bring this world to the brink of destruction.

Stop the rot before it's too late. Return to core principles asap.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-05 08:48:44)

GATOR591957
Member
+84|7053

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm just glad I live in free Europe. Thanks for the help liberating us America. Give us a buzz if you want us to liberate you from your government.
"Free Europe"  I must laugh, sorry.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7075

My views on this have more or less been covered, so I'll spare you all the boredom of reading it again. Especially Mr. Steve, who appears to go nuts when someone posts something he disagrees with.

If any of the Americans would like to escape oppression though, I could probably put you up at my place.

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard