Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6607|North Carolina

usmarine2007 wrote:

Somebody explain this to me.  In 1982 on Christmas day in Cleveland, Ohio it was 66 degrees (F).  In 1983 on December 25th it was -10 (F).  Is it possible the earth and weather have cycles that we do not fully understand and most likely never will?
You can't look at single areas when trying to comprehend global warming.  You have to look at the annual average global temperature.  We've seen a slow rise in this temperature, which is why people are alarmed.

It is true that climatology is a very advanced science and that there is much room for improvement in our understanding of it.  I think, ultimately, the importance of moving away from oil is two-fold.  Nuclear technology and many other forms of alternative energy produce less greenhouse gases, which means that global warming is slowed down, and...  we won't have to mess with the Middle East as much.

I don't think most scientists would suggest that we can end global warming, because it appears to have both a man-made component and a cyclical one.  I think the issue is that we are accelerating a process that is already present.  It sounds counterintuitive, but a much higher global temperature usually precedes an ice age.  The goal is to postpone that ice age as much as possible.

Last edited by Turquoise (2007-01-01 11:08:25)

usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6569|Columbus, Ohio
I still do not get it.  How far back in history are we going to find accurate temps?  Seems to me we are only sampling a fraction of time.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6607|North Carolina

usmarine2007 wrote:

I still do not get it.  How far back in history are we going to find accurate temps?  Seems to me we are only sampling a fraction of time.
The most accurate records we have are found in Arctic and Antarctic ice.  Scientists drill very long holes in the ice caps of places like Antarctica, because the layers tell us many things about what has happened climatically over millennia.
autopilot
banned
+115|6549

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

You claim to be a good hunter yet you know nothing of the woods? Are you telling me there are no differance between a re-planted forrest and a natural one? Would you go hunt and camp outside in a replanted forrest?

Don´t forget I come from a country filled with woods, farms and remote landscape, I know hunting and fishing aswell. You really think I would have stated that I beleive that you should be able to kill what you eat otherwise? Also I said I respected you hunting, guess you missed that.

For the lazy part...it was meant as a general comment on the entire world...USA are not the only ones using the very techniques we just talked about, you are just using it in soo much larger numbers. It´s actually the efficiancy and pace that are killing our world...we wan´t to be as efficiant as possible, hence we take no care for the nature.

And you are right....we are kinda of topic ...but still not...if someone makes a damm across a river...the reaches are changed downstream, changing the lifes of everyone that are dependant on it, everything is connected, yin and yang, black and white. The polarbear getting extinct is yet another warningsign.

Now I need some sleep....nice debating with you...cya tomorrow. Take care.
I'll bet you're wondering why Americans are less respected some times.
https://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/d/darwin/charles/darwin.jpg

I think you come from the red part
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6607|North Carolina
Dumfukistan...  lol...  I live in this particular region myself, but you know...  the cultural divide in America is less about state lines and more about urban areas vs. rural ones.  Urban areas tend to have a higher percentage of educated people.  My town, Greensboro, is surprisingly open-minded for being in NC.  There is a world of difference between Greensboro and High Point (a close-minded suburb of ours) though....

Last edited by Turquoise (2007-01-01 11:30:31)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|6853|USA
If not for global warming, I wonder what made all the glaciers disappear 1,000,000 years ago, you know, the ones that cut our valleys and formed our rivers?? I bet it was that damn Bush!!!
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6607|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

If not for global warming, I wonder what made all the glaciers disappear 1,000,000 years ago, you know, the ones that cut our valleys and formed our rivers?? I bet it was that damn Bush!!!
No, it was cyclical.  I don't understand how it is so difficult for people to understand that mankind's activities can sometimes accelerate natural processes.  Is it really that far-fetched to you guys?

I can understand some healthy skepticism, but I hope you realize that most of the recent debate concerning global warming was initially funded by oil companies.  About 10 to 15 years ago, Exxon started funding study groups with a very clear agenda in mind: diminish the public support for the concept of global warming.

People like Michael Crichton make some good points occasionally -- especially his view on how environmentalists often act like religious fundamentalists, but ultimately, he seems to miss the forest for the trees as well.

It's not that global warming doesn't exist or that we aren't affecting it.  The problem is that it has become politicized by activists and oil companies.  It's hard to find balanced sources on the topic.  Everything I've read (from both sides) leads me to believe that global warming is definitely being sped up by us, but we must acknowledge that we cannot reverse it.  We can only slow it down.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6853|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

If not for global warming, I wonder what made all the glaciers disappear 1,000,000 years ago, you know, the ones that cut our valleys and formed our rivers?? I bet it was that damn Bush!!!
No, it was cyclical.  I don't understand how it is so difficult for people to understand that mankind's activities can sometimes accelerate natural processes.  Is it really that far-fetched to you guys?

I can understand some healthy skepticism, but I hope you realize that most of the recent debate concerning global warming was initially funded by oil companies.  About 10 to 15 years ago, Exxon started funding study groups with a very clear agenda in mind: diminish the public support for the concept of global warming.

People like Michael Crichton make some good points occasionally -- especially his view on how environmentalists often act like religious fundamentalists, but ultimately, he seems to miss the forest for the trees as well.

It's not that global warming doesn't exist or that we aren't affecting it.  The problem is that it has become politicized by activists and oil companies.  It's hard to find balanced sources on the topic.  Everything I've read (from both sides) leads me to believe that global warming is definitely being sped up by us, but we must acknowledge that we cannot reverse it.  We can only slow it down.
and it couldn't be a bunch of people trying to make names for themselves. It couldn't be the elevated solar activity that has been PROVEN to be happening now could it? It HAS to be the US and its SUV's
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6607|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

If not for global warming, I wonder what made all the glaciers disappear 1,000,000 years ago, you know, the ones that cut our valleys and formed our rivers?? I bet it was that damn Bush!!!
No, it was cyclical.  I don't understand how it is so difficult for people to understand that mankind's activities can sometimes accelerate natural processes.  Is it really that far-fetched to you guys?

I can understand some healthy skepticism, but I hope you realize that most of the recent debate concerning global warming was initially funded by oil companies.  About 10 to 15 years ago, Exxon started funding study groups with a very clear agenda in mind: diminish the public support for the concept of global warming.

People like Michael Crichton make some good points occasionally -- especially his view on how environmentalists often act like religious fundamentalists, but ultimately, he seems to miss the forest for the trees as well.

It's not that global warming doesn't exist or that we aren't affecting it.  The problem is that it has become politicized by activists and oil companies.  It's hard to find balanced sources on the topic.  Everything I've read (from both sides) leads me to believe that global warming is definitely being sped up by us, but we must acknowledge that we cannot reverse it.  We can only slow it down.
and it couldn't be a bunch of people trying to make names for themselves. It couldn't be the elevated solar activity that has been PROVEN to be happening now could it? It HAS to be the US and its SUV's
If you're referring to Michael Crichton, yes.  Some would say the same for Gore.

However, just because someone is trying to attract attention with a controversial idea, it doesn't mean the idea itself is completely invalid.  Michael Moore made an excellent point in revealing the Bush family's connection to the Bin Laden family.  He was doing for attention, but that didn't change the fact that the Bush family did allow the Bin Ladens to leave America right after 9/11 without any serious questioning.

The same thing is true of "An Inconvenient Truth".  Sure, the movie has an obvious agenda, and Gore did fudge some facts, but after doing some research of my own, I came to the conclusion that global warming is very much a valid theory with a lot of evidence to suggest our actions as influencing the global climate.

Curiously, one thing Gore leaves out of his movie is the influence of power plants on air pollution.  Power plants produce more air pollution than anything else on this planet.  All it would take to significantly decrease air pollution globally would be to install "scrubbers" on the smokestacks of these plants worldwide.  Scrubbers are filters that remove most of the greenhouse-related chemicals from the smoke leaving these plants.

In summary, just because someone is making a lot of noise about something, that doesn't mean the idea is completely invalid.

Last edited by Turquoise (2007-01-01 12:21:39)

101st air falcon
Member
+0|6528
the ice caps will melt regardless of what we do. Earths climate was never consistent. back billions of years ago there were no ice caps then you have ice ages and other natural phenomenon well before humans existence. it is all cycles of nature. the question is are we as humans accelerating the process. and to some extent we are but one volcano exploding can produce more CFCs then all the CFCs produced by humans combined.

the world will flood but it wont be because of global warming
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6569|Columbus, Ohio

101st air falcon wrote:

one volcano exploding can produce more CFCs then all the CFCs produced by humans combined.
win
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6607|North Carolina

101st air falcon wrote:

the ice caps will melt regardless of what we do. Earths climate was never consistent. back billions of years ago there were no ice caps then you have ice ages and other natural phenomenon well before humans existence. it is all cycles of nature. the question is are we as humans accelerating the process. and to some extent we are but one volcano exploding can produce more CFCs then all the CFCs produced by humans combined.

the world will flood but it wont be because of global warming
Well, what you have posted is true to a point.  I should have said "power plants produce more air pollution than anything else manmade on this planet."

Regardless, your post even points out that global warming occurs, and that yes, it is a cyclical process.  The point is that the pollution we create accelerates the process of global warming.  We're trying to slow down global warming, not eliminate it.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6853|USA

Turquoise wrote:

101st air falcon wrote:

the ice caps will melt regardless of what we do. Earths climate was never consistent. back billions of years ago there were no ice caps then you have ice ages and other natural phenomenon well before humans existence. it is all cycles of nature. the question is are we as humans accelerating the process. and to some extent we are but one volcano exploding can produce more CFCs then all the CFCs produced by humans combined.

the world will flood but it wont be because of global warming
Well, what you have posted is true to a point.  I should have said "power plants produce more air pollution than anything else manmade on this planet."

Regardless, your post even points out that global warming occurs, and that yes, it is a cyclical process.  The point is that the pollution we create accelerates the process of global warming.  We're trying to slow down global warming, not eliminate it.
to what end?
CoronadoSEAL
pics or it didn't happen
+207|6719|USA
move toward the poles...
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6607|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

101st air falcon wrote:

the ice caps will melt regardless of what we do. Earths climate was never consistent. back billions of years ago there were no ice caps then you have ice ages and other natural phenomenon well before humans existence. it is all cycles of nature. the question is are we as humans accelerating the process. and to some extent we are but one volcano exploding can produce more CFCs then all the CFCs produced by humans combined.

the world will flood but it wont be because of global warming
Well, what you have posted is true to a point.  I should have said "power plants produce more air pollution than anything else manmade on this planet."

Regardless, your post even points out that global warming occurs, and that yes, it is a cyclical process.  The point is that the pollution we create accelerates the process of global warming.  We're trying to slow down global warming, not eliminate it.
to what end?
To postpone an ice age.  The only thing worse than a much hotter earth is a much colder one.  I don't even wanna think about how few people would be left after both a flooding and freezing period.  It would be like the Biblical flood with extremely cold weather following it.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6853|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Well, what you have posted is true to a point.  I should have said "power plants produce more air pollution than anything else manmade on this planet."

Regardless, your post even points out that global warming occurs, and that yes, it is a cyclical process.  The point is that the pollution we create accelerates the process of global warming.  We're trying to slow down global warming, not eliminate it.
to what end?
To postpone an ice age.  The only thing worse than a much hotter earth is a much colder one.  I don't even wanna think about how few people would be left after both a flooding and freezing period.  It would be like the Biblical flood with extremely cold weather following it.
according to you, SOMEONE is going to have to deal with it, just not us, huh???
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6607|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:


to what end?
To postpone an ice age.  The only thing worse than a much hotter earth is a much colder one.  I don't even wanna think about how few people would be left after both a flooding and freezing period.  It would be like the Biblical flood with extremely cold weather following it.
according to you, SOMEONE is going to have to deal with it, just not us, huh???
The world in total.  We may contribute a lot to pollution, but China is another big polluter.  Don't think I'm just blaming America for this.  The Third World is likely to become the biggest contributor to pollution in the next few decades due to industrialization.  We've got to find a way to help them industrialize without destroying the environment.
Fen321
Member
+54|6699|Singularity
If we can't predict the weather in a week in advance what makes anyone believe we can predict "global warming" with any kind of confidence?

"To an outsider, the most significant innovation in the global warming controversy is the overt reliance that is being placed on models. Back in the days of nuclear winter, computer models were invoked to add weight to a conclusion: "These results are derived with the help of a computer model." But now large-scale computer models are seen as generating data in themselves. No longer are models judged by how well they reproduce data from the real world-increasingly, models provide the data. As if they were themselves a reality. And indeed they are, when we are projecting forward. There can be no observational data about the year 2100. There are only model runs.

This fascination with computer models is something I understand very well. Richard Feynmann called it a disease. I fear he is right. Because only if you spend a lot of time looking at a computer screen can you arrive at the complex point where the global warming debate now stands.

Nobody believes a weather prediction twelve hours ahead. Now we're asked to believe a prediction that goes out 100 years into the future? And make financial investments based on that prediction? Has everybody lost their minds?

Stepping back, I have to say the arrogance of the modelmakers is breathtaking. There have been, in every century, scientists who say they know it all. Since climate may be a chaotic system-no one is sure-these predictions are inherently doubtful, to be polite. But more to the point, even if the models get the science spot-on, they can never get the sociology. To predict anything about the world a hundred years from now is simply absurd.

Look: If I was selling stock in a company that I told you would be profitable in 2100, would you buy it? Or would you think the idea was so crazy that it must be a scam?

Let's think back to people in 1900 in, say, New York. If they worried about people in 2000, what would they worry about? Probably: Where would people get enough horses? And what would they do about all the horseshit? Horse pollution was bad in 1900, think how much worse it would be a century later, with so many more people riding horses?

But of course, within a few years, nobody rode horses except for sport. And in 2000, France was getting 80% its power from an energy source that was unknown in 1900. Germany, Switzerland, Belgium and Japan were getting more than 30% from this source, unknown in 1900. Remember, people in 1900 didn't know what an atom was. They didn't know its structure. They also didn't know what a radio was, or an airport, or a movie, or a television, or a computer, or a cell phone, or a jet, an antibiotic, a rocket, a satellite, an MRI, ICU, IUD, IBM, IRA, ERA, EEG, EPA, IRS, DOD, PCP, HTML, internet. interferon, instant replay, remote sensing, remote control, speed dialing, gene therapy, gene splicing, genes, spot welding, heat-seeking, bipolar, prozac, leotards, lap dancing, email, tape recorder, CDs, airbags, plastic explosive, plastic, robots, cars, liposuction, transduction, superconduction, dish antennas, step aerobics, smoothies, twelve-step, ultrasound, nylon, rayon, teflon, fiber optics, carpal tunnel, laser surgery, laparoscopy, corneal transplant, kidney transplant, AIDS… None of this would have meant anything to a person in the year 1900. They wouldn't know what you are talking about. " -Michael Crichton
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6607|North Carolina
I knew it...  Michael Crichton.  I called it.

You know what.  Forget it.  I don't even know why I care about global warming anyway, since the repercussions are slow enough that I probably won't even see most of them while I'm alive.  If future generations want to pretend that pollution has no effect on climate, then so be it.

People are willing to believe that terrorism is a highly structured movement throughout the world ready to attack us in 9/11 capacity at any moment or that some invisible divine being created the world in 6 days, but somehow, global warming is too much of a stretch for them.

Just keep polluting and consuming without any care for the environment or fiscal policy.  I'm sure everything will be just fine.  Oh yeah, and who needs alternative energy sources?....   I'd much rather engage in war to keep my supply of energy safe and currency stable.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6802|132 and Bush

usmarine2007 wrote:

I still do not get it.  How far back in history are we going to find accurate temps?  Seems to me we are only sampling a fraction of time.
We have sampled back over 650k years. We do this by taking huge ice samples from the arctic areas. They look at the ice and analyze the oxygen isotopes and can judge with extreme accuracy what the temperature was.

Watch that video if you didn't. It really doesn't take much to notice the trend. Absolutely none of this data is questioned.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7OiF67GaOoE

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-01-01 16:17:47)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
Bell
Frosties > Cornflakes
+362|6751|UK

Until there is a president with the ball's (or maybe not 8-) to tell the American people they need to start paying realistic prices for there gas/oil and what have you, we are all friggen doomed.  Plus the Chinese and Indian's, but basically as we all know, those three hold the key to this, untill there is some pretty major change in policy anything the rest of the worlds nations do is pretty much academic.

Martyn
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6802|132 and Bush

Bell wrote:

Until there is a president with the ball's (or maybe not 8-) to tell the American people they need to start paying realistic prices for there gas/oil and what have you, we are all friggen doomed.  Plus the Chinese and Indian's, but basically as we all know, those three hold the key to this, untill there is some pretty major change in policy anything the rest of the worlds nations do is pretty much academic.

Martyn
Well, fortunately we have had many individual States as well as cities agree to Kyoto Protocol. I think Australia is the only other nation who hasn't signed it as a whole. (Unsure) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kyot … p_2005.png
Xbone Stormsurgezz
CC-Marley
Member
+407|7030

Kmarion wrote:

Bell wrote:

Until there is a president with the ball's (or maybe not 8-) to tell the American people they need to start paying realistic prices for there gas/oil and what have you, we are all friggen doomed.  Plus the Chinese and Indian's, but basically as we all know, those three hold the key to this, untill there is some pretty major change in policy anything the rest of the worlds nations do is pretty much academic.

Martyn
Well, fortunately we have had many individual States as well as cities agree to Kyoto Protocol. I think Australia is the only other nation who hasn't signed it as a whole. (Unsure) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kyot … p_2005.png
Kyoto is crap as you now know....lol

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