Pages: 1 2

 

2007-01-02 07:01:08
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7076|USA

Bertster7 wrote:

The trade embargo with Cuba is stupid and hypocritical. The communist regime in China is far worse than in Cuba yet the US has no trouble trading with them.
So should we then start trading with NK now? I am not sure what the big mystery is here. The US and Cuba politically are not compatable, the US hates Cuba and Cuba hates the US. The fact that they don't trade seems surprising to you guys why? the US isn't being hurt by this, and according to Cam, Cuba is not fairling much worse.

China is rapidly emerging as a capitalist country. Therefore trade with her makes sense.
2007-01-02 07:09:23
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6980

lowing wrote:

China is rapidly emerging as a capitalist country. Therefore trade with her makes sense.
China may have capitalistic tendencies Lowing - but it ain't democratic and civil liberties are akin to those in Cuba.
2007-01-02 07:12:16
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7076|USA

Cameron Poe wrote:

lowing wrote:

China is rapidly emerging as a capitalist country. Therefore trade with her makes sense.
China may have capitalistic tendencies Lowing - but it ain't democratic and civil liberties are akin to those in Cuba.
Those tendencies are moving  in the right direction, China sees the pattern of prosperity and capitalism going hand in hand.
2007-01-02 07:13:18
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7076|USA

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Hey Cam,

             Were you allowed full access to Cuba to see all its dirty laundry or were you allowed to see only what they wanted you to see?.......A real question by the way?
I wasn't interfered with by the authorities at any point. I stayed in the family homes of Cubans, rather than state hotels, as well. I only stayed in a state hotel for the first three nights of what was a 15 day holiday. My internet access was not restricted in the least. I did notice that certain Cubans who chatted with us were nervous not to speak to us for too long because of the CDR (committee for the defence of the revolution) - a movement that has an office in every street of every town, that monitor the activities of locals to make sure anti-revolutionary activity can't take place.
Ok so is it fair to say the people are oppressed, politically, idealogically, socially to an extent. That is to say I doubt a free thinker in Cuba would have much access to medical care.
don't miss this question Cam. I really wanna know.
2007-01-02 07:14:59
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7006|SE London

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

The trade embargo with Cuba is stupid and hypocritical. The communist regime in China is far worse than in Cuba yet the US has no trouble trading with them.
So should we then start trading with NK now? I am not sure what the big mystery is here. The US and Cuba politically are not compatable, the US hates Cuba and Cuba hates the US. The fact that they don't trade seems surprising to you guys why? the US isn't being hurt by this, and according to Cam, Cuba is not fairling much worse.

China is rapidly emerging as a capitalist country. Therefore trade with her makes sense.
I can't see China making the leap to capitalism in the foreseeable future. Embracing capitalist economic values does not change the way the government works. China is a far more repressed and censored state than Cuba. The attempt to open up the way the USSR's government worked with ideas like glasnost led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. Chinas communist government will be very aware of this and unwilling to risk the same fate.

I am merely trying to point out that all claims that the US are doing this because Cuba is run by a corrupt communist regime are bogus because the US is quite happy to trade with other corrupt communist regimes. The reason the US and Cuba don't trade is because the US hate Cuba, because of throwbacks to cold war allegiances. There is nothing seriously wrong with the regime in Cuba (not like many of the US's trading partners, China and Saudi Arabia spring to mind), so why should the US not trade with Cuba? Spite?

Trading with Cuba would be beneficial to the US (not very, but a bit). I'm sure there are plenty of Americans keen to buy Cuban cigars etc. The real question is why not trade with Cuba, what sensible reason is there for it?
2007-01-02 07:15:16
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6980

lowing wrote:

Cameron Poe wrote:

lowing wrote:

China is rapidly emerging as a capitalist country. Therefore trade with her makes sense.
China may have capitalistic tendencies Lowing - but it ain't democratic and civil liberties are akin to those in Cuba.
Those tendencies are moving  in the right direction, China sees the pattern of prosperity and capitalism going hand in hand.
Class divisions are becoming much more distinctly apparent now in 'communist' China, those at the top being members of the Communist Party itself. They are NOT going to altruistically cede their priviliged position at the top by entertaining ideas of democracy. Only popular revolt will bring about democracy. And we all remember the incidents in Tiananmen Square last time that was tried.
2007-01-02 07:18:02
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6980

lowing wrote:

don't miss this question Cam. I really wanna know.
That's a question I really cannot answer because I didn't have exposure to anyone who might have been deprived because of his views. According to Amnesty International in the recent past dissidents have been jailed and then released back to the community without having been mistreated (unlike back in the 60s) so the answer could be that they would not be deprived of the benefits of the state but obviously I cannot say for sure.
2007-01-02 07:38:23
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7006|SE London

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

don't miss this question Cam. I really wanna know.
That's a question I really cannot answer because I didn't have exposure to anyone who might have been deprived because of his views. According to Amnesty International in the recent past dissidents have been jailed and then released back to the community without having been mistreated (unlike back in the 60s) so the answer could be that they would not be deprived of the benefits of the state but obviously I cannot say for sure.
In China they definately are.

Militaristic, highly oppressive, communist regime (China) - the US trades with. Totalitarian Islamic state (Saudi Arabia) - the US trades with. Small, peacefull, possibly slightly repressive communist regime (Cuba) - the US does not trade with.

Why? Probably just left over prejudices from the Cold War.
2007-01-02 08:54:33
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6954|Global Command
America is stuck on stupid.
In so many ways this is demonstrated, what can I say.
2007-01-02 08:58:02
misconfiguration
GURU
+86|6821|Indianapolis, IN
Hellz no!
2007-01-02 09:02:17
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6975|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

CameronPoe wrote:

Having been to Cuba I can tell you this:

a) Embargo or not the 'plight' of the Cubans is not what the propaganda is made out to be. They may be deprived of certain liberties but they enjoy the highest level of literacy in latin america, never go hungry, have the second best healthcare system in the world to Canada, enjoy massive tourism revenues from Europe and Canada, have zero homelessness, enjoy extremely low levels of crime and have a thriving arts and music scene. Lifting the embargo just means that the relatively decent lifestyle they live will improve as trade worth more than $1bn kicks in..
To be fair though I have a friend who lived there and hates it when tourists rave about how good it is there.  Going somewhere on holiday and living there are two entirely different things.....
2007-01-02 09:04:24
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6980

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Having been to Cuba I can tell you this:

a) Embargo or not the 'plight' of the Cubans is not what the propaganda is made out to be. They may be deprived of certain liberties but they enjoy the highest level of literacy in latin america, never go hungry, have the second best healthcare system in the world to Canada, enjoy massive tourism revenues from Europe and Canada, have zero homelessness, enjoy extremely low levels of crime and have a thriving arts and music scene. Lifting the embargo just means that the relatively decent lifestyle they live will improve as trade worth more than $1bn kicks in..
To be fair though I have a friend who lived there and hates it when tourists rave about how good it is there.  Going somewhere on holiday and living there are two entirely different things.....
Hey I never said it was perfect. I certainly couldn't live somewhere that prohibits international travel.
2007-01-02 09:39:35
klassekock
Proud Born Loser
+68|7011|Sweden
Since I have the pleasure of being married to a cuban woman and live there two or three months  a year, I can tell you this.

Most of the cubans I have spoken to believe in the communism and would like it to work, but at the same time they are a bit frustrated because of the embargo which they blame for their low standard of living. That is of course not totally true since the cuban people are only allowed to know what the cuban government let them know. The media in Cuba is very angled so that USA is to blame for their present situation.

The embargo means that no trading what so ever will take place with USA, but it also has another effect. This is not verified but it's what some people over there told me. Apperantly it exits countries that would like to trade, or increase their trade with Cuba, but hesitates since they are unsure of how that would affect their relations with USA.

In my opinion the embargo is totally ridicilous and has no meaning. If USA wants to keep it they can, but they should make a statement of some kind that it's okey for other countries to trade with Cuba. That would boost the economy and make this beautiful country even more fun to visit.

One more thing. According to my relatives over there the cuban gossip says that Fidel Castro has cancer in the stomach and will most likely die this year. His brother Raul Castro is in charge at the moment and he is also number two in line who will rule the country. I don't think Cuba will give up their communism yet for many years.

I both love and hate that country. I hate it too because according to cuban law a nurse has to work for five years before she is allowed to leave the country. Sadly my wife happens to be a nurse and we are trying everything at the moment to bend the rules. Unfortenately at he moment it seems we need to wait another four years. I am considering to move there.

Last edited by klassekock (2007-01-02 09:54:17)

2007-01-02 09:39:57
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7076|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Having been to Cuba I can tell you this:

a) Embargo or not the 'plight' of the Cubans is not what the propaganda is made out to be. They may be deprived of certain liberties but they enjoy the highest level of literacy in latin america, never go hungry, have the second best healthcare system in the world to Canada, enjoy massive tourism revenues from Europe and Canada, have zero homelessness, enjoy extremely low levels of crime and have a thriving arts and music scene. Lifting the embargo just means that the relatively decent lifestyle they live will improve as trade worth more than $1bn kicks in..
To be fair though I have a friend who lived there and hates it when tourists rave about how good it is there.  Going somewhere on holiday and living there are two entirely different things.....
Hey I never said it was perfect. I certainly couldn't live somewhere that prohibits international travel.
So bottom line, is it an oppressed society or is it not??
2007-01-02 09:42:46
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6980

lowing wrote:

So bottom line, is it an oppressed society or is it not??
Certain aspects of Cuban life are subject to oppression - I don't think anyone denies that. It's part of how any 'communist' regime sustains itself, be it Chinese, Vietnamese or Cuban. Oppression isn't a preserve of communist regimes either.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-02 09:43:38)

2007-01-02 09:48:03
klassekock
Proud Born Loser
+68|7011|Sweden

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

So bottom line, is it an oppressed society or is it not??
Certain aspects of Cuban life are subject to oppression - I don't think anyone denies that. It's part of how any 'communist' regime sustains itself, be it Chinese, Vietnamese or Cuban. Oppression isn't a preserve of communist regimes either.
By our standards it's a oppressed community, but as far as I have noticed most cubans disagree with that. But on the other hand they have been told from childhood that Cuba is the best and most socialist country in the world.

Furthermore it's not illegal for most cubans to travel. They can leave if they want, but ironically it's impossible for them since it would take a lifetime to save up for the flight ticket.

Last edited by klassekock (2007-01-02 09:52:12)

 

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