Pages: 1 2

 

2007-01-01 07:54:00
EVieira
Member
+105|6903|Lutenblaag, Molvania
The Cold war is over. Fidel is not likely to return to power. The Bay of Pigs invasion happened some 40-50 years ago, its in the past. And the only country that still supports the US on this is Israel (I wonder why... ).

Is there any reason for this embargo to continue? Doesn't this just make America look like an ass?

Embargo Timeline

Edit: link to the embargo timeline added. Insterestingly, it was the Reagan administration the reinforced the embargo as one of its first acts in office.

Last edited by EVieira (2007-01-01 07:59:13)

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-01-01 08:17:41
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6986
Fidel is still in power..............
2007-01-01 08:26:44
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6918|Connecticut
http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~hbf/gunning.htm
Malloy must go
2007-01-01 08:38:40
EVieira
Member
+105|6903|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Bubbalo wrote:

Fidel is still in power..............
And?
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-01-01 09:04:30
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6986

EVieira wrote:

Fidel is not likely to return to power.
2007-01-01 09:48:13
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6830|North Carolina
I thought Fidel's brother was in power now.  People are saying that Fidel is dead.

I also read that his brother is interested in opening up trade with America.  In the past, he was seen as being just as oppressive as Fidel, but I have a feeling he will realize that free market capitalism is in the best interests of his country.

Granted, I don't think he'll be turning Cuba into a republic anytime soon.  It may be called the "Republic of Cuba," but it's certainly not a democratic republic.
2007-01-01 10:02:28
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6986
Republicanism and democracy are two entirely different things.
2007-01-01 10:05:44
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6830|North Carolina

Bubbalo wrote:

Republicanism and democracy are two entirely different things.
They can be incorporated into the same government though.  The American government is a democratic republic.  I mean...  yeah, Cuba could convert to a pure democracy, and that would be a dramatic improvement over their current situation, but it would be difficult to set up and administrate.  That's why most "democracies" are actually democratic republics or parliamentary systems.
2007-01-01 10:09:30
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6986
Yeah, but the fact that it isn't Democratic Republic has no relevance to it's name.  Whether it's a Republic does, of course.
2007-01-01 10:12:42
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6830|North Carolina

Bubbalo wrote:

Yeah, but the fact that it isn't Democratic Republic has no relevance to it's name.  Whether it's a Republic does, of course.
True...
2007-01-01 10:19:24
Fen321
Member
+54|6922|Singularity
If one is to simply look at the list of International Laws being violated by the Embargo one simply has to realize that no the Embargo should not be held in place. Also it is clear to see that it has been a failure due to the lack of political change with which it seeks to accomplish, but on the contrary it has acted as a mechanism to hold the country together and as a focal point of ideology that pins "US" against "them."
2007-01-01 10:41:08
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6830|North Carolina

Fen321 wrote:

If one is to simply look at the list of International Laws being violated by the Embargo one simply has to realize that no the Embargo should not be held in place. Also it is clear to see that it has been a failure due to the lack of political change with which it seeks to accomplish, but on the contrary it has acted as a mechanism to hold the country together and as a focal point of ideology that pins "US" against "them."
Agreed.  I'm all for opening trade with Cuba -- with or without them disbanding the Communist government.  I think Cuba has much of the same potential that China has shown.  The people of Cuba need work, and trading with a massive consumer like the U.S. will benefit both Cuba and us.

Another great thing about all this is that more trade with Cuba will slowly increase the standard of living over there, so less poor Cubans will flood Florida.  These people shouldn't be risking their lives in rafts just to get a decent wage.  Trade will create a situation where the poor of Cuba will find decent jobs in their own cities, instead of illegally looking for them here.
2007-01-02 05:14:04
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7076|USA

Turquoise wrote:

Fen321 wrote:

If one is to simply look at the list of International Laws being violated by the Embargo one simply has to realize that no the Embargo should not be held in place. Also it is clear to see that it has been a failure due to the lack of political change with which it seeks to accomplish, but on the contrary it has acted as a mechanism to hold the country together and as a focal point of ideology that pins "US" against "them."
Agreed.  I'm all for opening trade with Cuba -- with or without them disbanding the Communist government.  I think Cuba has much of the same potential that China has shown.  The people of Cuba need work, and trading with a massive consumer like the U.S. will benefit both Cuba and us.

Another great thing about all this is that more trade with Cuba will slowly increase the standard of living over there, so less poor Cubans will flood Florida.  These people shouldn't be risking their lives in rafts just to get a decent wage.  Trade will create a situation where the poor of Cuba will find decent jobs in their own cities, instead of illegally looking for them here.
Is it the oppressive govt. or the US that is keeping Cuba down? Doesn't the rest of the world trade freely with Cuba? If so, how does one single nation ( the US) embargoing Cuba, against the rest of the world trading with Cuba keep CUba from being what it could/should be?
2007-01-02 05:33:01
TeamZephyr
Maintaining My Rage Since 1975
+124|6954|Hillside, Melbourne, Australia

Turquoise wrote:

The American government is a democratic republic.
Which explans how someone can get 500,000 votes more than their opponent and still lose the election.......
2007-01-02 05:35:27
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6986

lowing wrote:

Is it the oppressive govt. or the US that is keeping Cuba down? Doesn't the rest of the world trade freely with Cuba? If so, how does one single nation ( the US) embargoing Cuba, against the rest of the world trading with Cuba keep CUba from being what it could/should be?
Yes, how silly of them to think that the world's largest economy could have more effect on economic welfare than any other.
2007-01-02 05:39:52
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7076|USA

Bubbalo wrote:

lowing wrote:

Is it the oppressive govt. or the US that is keeping Cuba down? Doesn't the rest of the world trade freely with Cuba? If so, how does one single nation ( the US) embargoing Cuba, against the rest of the world trading with Cuba keep CUba from being what it could/should be?
Yes, how silly of them to think that the world's largest economy could have more effect on economic welfare than any other.
You mean the US economy is bigger than the rest of the worlds COMBINED?!!. Does that include China as well?

And the US not trading with Cuba, while the rest of the world does, is the sole reason for Cuba being kept down? Cuba must be bigger than I thought, that there is not enough trade with Cuba from the rest of the world to keep it alive.

Last edited by lowing (2007-01-02 05:40:52)

2007-01-02 05:47:25
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6986
You do know that it costs money to transport materials?  And that countries buy from the lowest bidder?  That is to say, Cuba can't compete with sugar markets to get into places like Europe.  Or did you think transport was free?
2007-01-02 06:06:28
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6954|Global Command
No, this embargo is stupid and makes us look silly.
2007-01-02 06:28:44
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7076|USA

Bubbalo wrote:

You do know that it costs money to transport materials?  And that countries buy from the lowest bidder?  That is to say, Cuba can't compete with sugar markets to get into places like Europe.  Or did you think transport was free?
Yup makes sense, and that is the problem of the US's ..........how???.......That seems like an issue to be dealt with by Cuba and the rest of the trading world with Cuba. The Cuban people are not oppressed by the US, they are oppressed by the dictator that is in control of the country. The US doesn't align itself with Cuban rule but you fully expect the US to support Cuba? You must be out of what is left of your mind.

In 1989 the Soviets decided Communism doesn't work all that great. You are going to blame the US for Cuba's stubbornness in not following the rest of the world?
2007-01-02 06:33:10
Executiator
Member
+69|6846

lowing wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

lowing wrote:

Is it the oppressive govt. or the US that is keeping Cuba down? Doesn't the rest of the world trade freely with Cuba? If so, how does one single nation ( the US) embargoing Cuba, against the rest of the world trading with Cuba keep CUba from being what it could/should be?
Yes, how silly of them to think that the world's largest economy could have more effect on economic welfare than any other.
You mean the US economy is bigger than the rest of the worlds COMBINED?!!. Does that include China as well?

And the US not trading with Cuba, while the rest of the world does, is the sole reason for Cuba being kept down? Cuba must be bigger than I thought, that there is not enough trade with Cuba from the rest of the world to keep it alive.
Don't forget geography my friend. Cuba is a skip away, while "the rest of the world" is elsewhere farther. At least the economies that would help bolster Cuban economy.
2007-01-02 06:39:58
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6980
Having been to Cuba I can tell you this:

a) Embargo or not the 'plight' of the Cubans is not what the propaganda is made out to be. They may be deprived of certain liberties but they enjoy the highest level of literacy in latin america, never go hungry, have the second best healthcare system in the world to Canada, enjoy massive tourism revenues from Europe and Canada, have zero homelessness, enjoy extremely low levels of crime and have a thriving arts and music scene. Lifting the embargo just means that the relatively decent lifestyle they live will improve as trade worth more than $1bn kicks in.

b) The embargo was more than just a cold war exercise. The Cuban revolution was an affront to US hegemony in Latin America - as the revolutionaries dismantled the class system and vast estates owned by US interests (such as the United Fruit company) and returned them to Cubans. Such an example of successful resistance to US 'rule' was not going to sit well at the White House. Having said that, the emargo on Cuba now no longer serves a purpose as the hegemony of the US is being smashed all across Latin America - in Nicaragua, Venezuela, Bolivia and elsewhere. The US no longer has the pretext of the cold war to intervene and protect their interests and controlling shares in oil/gas companies, etc., when a Latin American country democratically votes in left wing candidates. All they can do is sponsor coups, as seen when they tried to unseat the democratically elected president of Venezuela a few years ago.

In short, Cubans are doing OK - lifting the embargo would just be a bonus. Why the emargo is still in place is because of pride and stubborness in the face of successful resistance to US hegemony. The USSR no longer exists and as such, the embargo is beginning to look a little farcical.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-02 06:45:46)

2007-01-02 06:47:47
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7076|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

Having been to Cuba I can tell you this:

a) Embargo or not the 'plight' of the Cubans is not what the propaganda is made out to be. They may be deprived of certain liberties but they enjoy the highest level of literacy in latin america, never go hungry, have the second best healthcare system in the world to Canada, enjoy massive tourism revenues from Europe and Canada, have zero homelessness, enjoy extremely low levels of crime and have a thriving arts and music scene. Lifting the embargo just means that the relatively decent lifestyle they live will improve as trade worth more than $1bn kicks in.

b) The embargo was more than just a cold war exercise. The Cuban revolution was an affront to US hegemony in Latin America - as the revolutionaries dismantled the class system and vast estates owned by US interests (such as the United Fruit company) and returned them to Cubans. Such an example of successful resistance to US 'rule' was not going to sit well at the White House. Having said that, the emargo on Cuba now no longer serves a purpose as the hegemony of the US is being smashed all across Latin America - in Nicaragua, Venezuela, Bolivia and elsewhere. The US no longer has the pretext of the cold war to intervene and protect their interests and controlling shares in oil/gas companies, etc., when a Latin American country democratically votes in left wing candidates. All they can do is sponsor coups, as seen when they tried to unseat the democratically elected president of Venezuela a few years ago.

In short, Cubans are doing OK - lifting the embargo would just be a bonus. Why the emargo is still in place is because of pride and stubborness in the face of successful resistance to US hegemony. The USSR no longer exists and as such, the embargo is beginning to look a little farcical.
Hey Cam,

             Were you allowed full access to Cuba to see all its dirty laundry or were you allowed to see only what they wanted you to see?.......A real question by the way?
2007-01-02 06:51:23
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6980

lowing wrote:

Hey Cam,

             Were you allowed full access to Cuba to see all its dirty laundry or were you allowed to see only what they wanted you to see?.......A real question by the way?
I wasn't interfered with by the authorities at any point. I stayed in the family homes of Cubans, rather than state hotels, as well. I only stayed in a state hotel for the first three nights of what was a 15 day holiday. My internet access was not restricted in the least. I did notice that certain Cubans who chatted with us were nervous not to speak to us for too long because of the CDR (committee for the defence of the revolution) - a movement that has an office in every street of every town, that monitor the activities of locals to make sure anti-revolutionary activity can't take place.
2007-01-02 06:56:34
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7006|SE London

The trade embargo with Cuba is stupid and hypocritical. The communist regime in China is far worse than in Cuba yet the US has no trouble trading with them.
2007-01-02 06:56:54
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7076|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Hey Cam,

             Were you allowed full access to Cuba to see all its dirty laundry or were you allowed to see only what they wanted you to see?.......A real question by the way?
I wasn't interfered with by the authorities at any point. I stayed in the family homes of Cubans, rather than state hotels, as well. I only stayed in a state hotel for the first three nights of what was a 15 day holiday. My internet access was not restricted in the least. I did notice that certain Cubans who chatted with us were nervous not to speak to us for too long because of the CDR (committee for the defence of the revolution) - a movement that has an office in every street of every town, that monitor the activities of locals to make sure anti-revolutionary activity can't take place.
Ok so is it fair to say the people are oppressed, politically, idealogically, socially to an extent. That is to say I doubt a free thinker in Cuba would have much access to medical care.

 

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