Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6967|Texas - Bigger than France
Over Xmas, I was visiting my sister's church which is a denomination of Presbyterian Church USA.  Recently their congregation has voted to disassociate from the sect (or whatever its called) and go on its own.  In turn, the church and congregation are in a legal battle for who gets the building.

I thought this would be interesting for discussion, this is not a "religion is stupid" thread...think of it as a small, small minority is calling the shots...and the majority is unhappy...put yourself in the shoes of the majority...what would you do?

Background:
-Some info in a recent article that was published in the WSJ:
http://www.standwithus.com/news_post.asp?NPI=859

-Presby USA is somewhat liberal when compared to others for a few reasons, and I think (my opinion) that Presbies allow a lot of flexibility to their flock in terms of allowing variations to spring up from time to time.  However, the issues I list below were supported by the leadership of the organization

-Presby USA has been criticized recently for taking an anti-Israeli position (2004) and actively supporting it by providing funds to aid the Hamas and Hezbollah, writing letters congradulating these leaders, and actively participating in anti-Israeli opportunities.

-Presby USA allows gay & lesbians to be church elders (people who make decisions on local functions and support, etc).  The next step is they held a vote to decide if they would allow gay & lesbian Pastors, which was defeated by 90% of the voters.  Not satisfied, they held the vote again with similar results.  The Presby leadership then decided that it would be allowed if the elders voted for it at their local church...which by the way is the same as current - Pastors become Pastors if the elders appoint them.  This effectively disregarded the results of the vote.

-The main Presby publishing house was criticized for actively promoting a book that says the US government is directly responsible for the 9/11 attack by funding and planning the entire campaign.  The Church apologized but the book has not been removed from it's lineup and has remained a promotional item for many years after the complaint was issued.

-In an attempt to make religion more friendly, Presby USA is hoping to change a few things...probably to make it more politically correct.  For instance "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit" is to be replaced by "The Mother Earth, The Spirit, and Life's Water" or something like that.  (Ok, a side note here - this isn't all...so what other changes exist?)

-Nationally, many Presby USA churches have disassociated and went their own way.  When this first started happening, the Presby leadership issued a plan for facing up to the possible disassociation of their churches - a memo was sent basically saying step 1) remove the Pastor, 2) remove the Elders (local church governing committee), 3) put people in place that suited their agenda.

So my sister's an elder in her church.  People were voicing opinions about supporting the church because their national dues are funding of the above activities.  They like their little church but are wondering why nationally their church has become politically active.

So their congregation decides to vote to see if they should disassociate.  Someone not in favor of disassociating informs the national governing body.  Next, the national organization informs them the pastor will be replaced and a representative will be there shortly to "help guide" the church elders.  Instead, the entire congregation votes - 85% to disassociate with 15% against.  According to my sister, after talking with each of the 15%, they voted no because "it'll never happen here (gay)" and "the funds went to the Palestians, not to the Hamas/Hez (even though it did)".

So there's a lawsuit to determine who's going to get the building - the congregation or the Church.  If the congregation loses...they meet in a school gym until they find a new home.

So I ask you - keep in mind this isn't a "religion sucks" thread - here is a situation where you are a member of an organization who's minority is running the show - 15% or 20% supporting a political agenda you don't support, yet 25% of the money you donate goes to that cause - you and others like you funded building the local church - what do you do?  Why don't the other 20% go away instead?
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6870|The Land of Scott Walker
If any of the money I give to my church was going towards political agenda I don't support I'd at the very least vote to disassociate my local church with the denomination.  If that didn't happen, I'd leave and go to a church that doesn't give it's money to any political agenda, but rather towards the work of the church.  The majority need to speak up and be as vocal about their views as the 20%.  I can't believe there's not a voting system in place that would give the majority the voice they deserve.  Having invested money in the building, I'd support the lawsuit by the local church.

That's why I like my church.  Our funds don't funnel through a higher organization that makes decisions about the money given at our local church.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6967|Texas - Bigger than France

Stingray24 wrote:

The majority need to speak up and be as vocal about their views as the 20%.  I can't believe there's not a voting system in place that would give the majority the voice they deserve.
I wanted to stress this part...because this is the main reason why my sister's pissed is about ignoring the flock (she's not a gay basher BTW):

If you aren't gay and want to be a Pastor, the elders elect you.

At the national vote, 90% voted against having Gay/Lesbian pastors....twice.  The response of the church "it will be allowed if the local elders elect you".

Hmmmm....
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6870|The Land of Scott Walker

Pug wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

The majority need to speak up and be as vocal about their views as the 20%.  I can't believe there's not a voting system in place that would give the majority the voice they deserve.
I wanted to stress this part...because this is the main reason why my sister's pissed is about ignoring the flock (she's not a gay basher BTW):

If you aren't gay and want to be a Pastor, the elders elect you.

At the national vote, 90% voted against having Gay/Lesbian pastors....twice.  The response of the church "it will be allowed if the local elders elect you".

Hmmmm....
What we have heeeeere, is a failuuuuure to communicate.   Sounds like the church needs to shake up it's leadership if they're ignoring two votes on the subject.
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7161|Salt Lake City

Maybe the 15-20% should go away.  I don't believe in God, but if he/it did exist, I certainly don't believe that a church is where you are going to find him/it.  At least not as far as my interpretation of the Bible would lead me to believe.
OpsChief
Member
+101|7101|Southern California
Presby's are turning into druids? Mother Earth and Life's Water...  and The Spirit downgraded from The Holy Spirit!

The splintering from the sect seems like a responsible thing to do.
OpsChief
Member
+101|7101|Southern California

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Maybe the 15-20% should go away.  I don't believe in God, but if he/it did exist, I certainly don't believe that a church is where you are going to find him/it.  At least not as far as my interpretation of the Bible would lead me to believe.
...well not a church that worships the gods of temporal political correctness anyway.
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7161|Salt Lake City

OpsChief wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Maybe the 15-20% should go away.  I don't believe in God, but if he/it did exist, I certainly don't believe that a church is where you are going to find him/it.  At least not as far as my interpretation of the Bible would lead me to believe.
...well not a church that worships the gods of temporal political correctness anyway.
I mean any church.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6967|Texas - Bigger than France

OpsChief wrote:

Presby's are turning into druids? Mother Earth and Life's Water...  and The Spirit downgraded from The Holy Spirit!

The splintering from the sect seems like a responsible thing to do.
Well, actually the 20% is in control (the "In"sect...lol...sorry), so the 80% will go elsewhere.  So my guess is that you have a few more sects...like the gays can make the "Butt"-sect...(again sorry...couldn't resist).

Seriously though, the minority is forcing the 80% to go elsewhere instead of conforming to their own flock...and that's just strange.  It really doesn't make a difference if you live in a big town, but my sister lives in a small town...they'll have to rebuild.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6967|Texas - Bigger than France

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

OpsChief wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Maybe the 15-20% should go away.  I don't believe in God, but if he/it did exist, I certainly don't believe that a church is where you are going to find him/it.  At least not as far as my interpretation of the Bible would lead me to believe.
...well not a church that worships the gods of temporal political correctness anyway.
I mean any church.
I agree you don't have to go to church to be religious or not.  But even if you aren't, I ask the question - lets say the organization is a charity that you support that does great things locally but does weird stuff with your national dues...
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6830|North Carolina
*shrugs*  I think it sucks when politics and religion mix, but being an Atheist, I don't really have to worry about these kinds of issues from a denomination viewpoint.

I'll put it this way -- if I went to a church and I disagreed with what it was doing with things like funding, I'd just go to a different one.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6967|Texas - Bigger than France

Turquoise wrote:

*shrugs*  I think it sucks when politics and religion mix, but being an Atheist, I don't really have to worry about these kinds of issues from a denomination viewpoint.

I'll put it this way -- if I went to a church and I disagreed with what it was doing with things like funding, I'd just go to a different one.
Okay, but you're in the 80%...

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