BF2S Forums How responsible is the US for winning WWII?

a few theories.

If Germany used all her resources including all her divisions in the west and defeated Russia, do you think she would have then the military might to take on the British Empire?

Britain would have reinforced her land defenses, trained her army better, armed herself with all the latest technology etc. to counter any German invasion. Stalemate, even when it looked like we were losing we still never surrendered so there would NOT have been any negotiated peace. We would have been too strong.

If the Russians had defeated Germany with the help of the British it too would have been halted by the channel. But eventually the Soviets would have gained their strength and eventually overrun the British Isles.

Now we will never know for sure.

There is amble evidence that Germany had plans to attack the US and especially New York with some sort of long range bomber.(would it have happened who knows)

THE US DIDN'T WIN THE WAR IT HELPED WIN THE WAR. (this is only to the few Americans and OTHER nationalities who know nothing about the war)
They contributed massively and helped win the war. With out their help the war would never have ended the way it did.

As for the death toll, google, Wikipedia, books, the British lost more men per capita than the US and if you take civilians in to account the results are the same. (around 500,000 each).

adam1503 wrote:

Okay, so this is a pretty big question.  A lot of Americans seem to believe that their country was solely responsible for saving Europe from Nazi occupation during WWII.  They claim to have single-handedly won the war and to have saved everyone.

On the other hand, many Europeans (infact, most of the rest of the world) believe that America didn't play as crucial a role as they lay claim to.  America joined the war more than half-way through, and only after they were bombed at Pearl Harbour.  They also were responsible for introducing the fission bomb to the world, and for using two on Japan.

Is it just me, or are many Americans full of crap?  How can they claim to have won the war and to have saved Europe from the Nazis?  Who liberated much of mainland Europe from Nazi occupation? Who was able to fend off the Nazi war machine from invasion during the Blitz years?

We should clear this up once and for all: the US cannot claim to have saved Europe from the Nazis.  The US did not win the war alone.

(EDIT: I wanted to add a poll here, but there doesn't seem to be an option for it...)

Source? Who said "Americans think they won the war"? besides you? I hear this tossed about like a $2 whore but not a single credible source has been cited.

The Allies won the war.

Talon wrote:

Who defeated Italy and germany in Africa? Who invaded Italy, opening up the second front? Britain and the commonwealth.

In N. Africa the UK had been battling back and forth for more than a year. In Sep 43 Rommel slated to receive 3 heavy divisions (2 panzer, 1 pz grn) and instead received 1 Lt Inf Div. Still Rommel manages to nearly break the UK at El Alamein. Then Rommel down to 23 tanks! Retreats back to his supply base to refit.
Would 2 Mk IV Panzer Divisions have made a difference?


Why after beating UK forces did Rommel now fail? A) the US hit Rommel from behind ruined his supply link, B) split his forces, and C) the 3 divisions Rommel didn't get went to Russia. Who gave full credit for the victory in the desert to the Americans? nobody. Even Mongtomery said without the US landings he could not be "certain of victory". Monty was a competent yet cautious type so maybe he was exagerating.

Last edited by OpsChief (2006-12-19 08:19:56)

From what my Grandfather has told me (Fled Nazi occupied Czechoslovakia), that if it wasn't for the Russians pushing the Germans back off the Eastern front and into Berlin, the War may have had its tables turnd in the Nazi's favour.

Bell wrote:

Noooooooo, the Germans caused there own undoing.  He went for Russia in the middle of there winter and that ended it.  Oooo aye and some fight's in between.  If he went for Britain, he would probably of won, and from there head out to go for the American's on there home soil, and dont jump to the conclusion you would beat them there either.  Though that is just a bunch of what if's and such, the Americans certainly can be credited with tipping the balance in favour of the alies, but they did not win it by them self's.  You hear it a lot, I always say

'Aye whatever Private Ryan'

Martyn

I have never heard an American say it! I often hear others saying that Americans believe it but as yet no evidence.

You also have to remember that Australia's efforts for the War in Europe was quite low due to most of our Forces fighting side-by side with the Americans in the Pacific.

Last edited by Macca (2006-12-18 18:12:58)

commissargizz wrote:

I still do not believe that  The British Empire (remember we are not talking about just the UK but Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Nepal, India etc.) would have negotiated a peace. As you rightly pointed out the Empire had a vastly superior air force and a huge Navy. So why negotiate when the German land forces couldn't touch us? Yet with air superiority we could have run riot in the air. A stalemate but no peace.

I would also like those that think the Americans did all the work, just look at the forces massed for the D-Day landings.

Battleships Six battleships took part: three British and three US:
Cruisers Twenty-three cruisers (17 British and Commonwealth, 3 US, 2 Free French and 1 Polish)
Destroyers & escorts 135 ships (eighty-five British and Dominion, 39 US, 7 Free French and 7 other Allied):
Other warships 508 ships (352 British, 154 US and 2 other Allied):


In total, 47 divisions would be committed to the Battle of Normandy: 19 British, 5 Canadian and 1 Polish divisions under overall British command, and 21 American divisions with 1 Free French division, totaling 140,000 troops.

Now please tell me after you look at the facts that if the other allies were not fighting along side the US do you honestly think that the US would have won this operation on it's own.

If you want I can provide information for almost all the major battles fought during the war. I will give to the Americans they did win the Pacific sea war. I do not know the exact composition but I think about 90% of the forces there were American.

I think the Germans wouldve finally realized that the Brits were never gonna be able to invade Europe by themselves, and in such case Germany wouldve started to make an Air Force that would challenge the Brits for air superiority over England. Remember Germany did have jet fighter aircraft and if they couldve mass produced them and had ample time to train the pilots, they wouldve been able to beat England. England had alot of pilots that were very well trained with good planes. Germany had alot of pilots that were'nt as good with awseome planes. Basically what i'm saying is it all came down to quality of the pilots in which case England had. Germany, by far had better planes but not enough well trained men to fly them.

As far as the D-day landings, yea England supplied most of the vessels for the battle but i'm sure the US sold them alot of those (correct me if i'm wrong). Not to mention almost half of the invading forces were American.
Does your 140,000 factor in the Airborne guys? We had kinda of a large part in that too along with the Brits.
Not saying that the US couldve pulled the D-day landings on their own but you cant honestly tell me that the Brits wouldve been able to invade and liberate Europe by themselves either.

Another thing is that during the Battle of the Bulge pretty much if not all of the forces defending against the German offensive were American. Ummm...the US helped end the war in North Africa and Italy much sooner than England wouldve been able to do by themselves. I'm not saying that England couldnt have done it without US help but creating a second front from the West  in Africa certainly helped the Brits in defeating Rommel quicker.

As far as the war in the Pacific goes, it was pretty much an all US war with the exception of some Aussie units and a couple Brits as well.

ATG wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

its funny watching a bunch of 9th graders debate the same topic over and over again

Well then why open up the thread and post then?

I agree that this has been talked about for the millionth fucking time though.

I just enjoy debating about historical theories.

ATG wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

its funny watching a bunch of 9th graders debate the same topic over and over again

small point, but you say 'save Europe' from nazi occupation, but it was 'save the world'
The nazi's were in Africa and were trying to push east into Russia and probably then continue into Asia.
America did play a crucial role but so did Britain and France (yes even France) and Russia and China etc

IMHO the main point that looses the US its claim is that they clearly did not put all the effort they claimed to into winning the war
I mean just look up IBM and the holocaust for a start

OpsChief wrote:

PLEASE!!! will someone show me where "The United States" or "The Americans" claimed we won WWII exclusively, alone or with no help etc etc etc?

I am feeling like I missed a HUGE part of my public education if I somehow missed that ubiquitous assertion.

Considering from a Canadian point of view, I believe it stems from extensive film documentation of Second World War topics that mostly depict American efforts, especially Operation Overlord, as the most vital and most important part of World War II. Instead of the Eastern Front being portrayed, as it did contain the majority of that war, we are audiences to films that have D-Day as the operation that won the war. Nor do the British have a significant impact on these films, which are the cultural representation of history, one that finds more favour than history textbooks as a educational source.

Additionally, it may be due to the attitudes that are beared against the French, one that finds the American effort as the only one that liberated France, and the eternal gratitude it seems to impart.

sfarrar33 wrote:

small point, but you say 'save Europe' from nazi occupation, but it was 'save the world'
The nazi's were in Africa and were trying to push east into Russia and probably then continue into Asia.
America did play a crucial role but so did Britain and France (yes even France) and Russia and China etc

IMHO the main point that looses the US its claim is that they clearly did not put all the effort they claimed to into winning the war
I mean just look up IBM and the holocaust for a start

China didn't do much. Civil war going on where the nationalist fucks were fighting the commies while the commies actually fought against the Japanese.

arabeater wrote:

commissargizz wrote:

I still do not believe that  The British Empire (remember we are not talking about just the UK but Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Nepal, India etc.) would have negotiated a peace. As you rightly pointed out the Empire had a vastly superior air force and a huge Navy. So why negotiate when the German land forces couldn't touch us? Yet with air superiority we could have run riot in the air. A stalemate but no peace.

I would also like those that think the Americans did all the work, just look at the forces massed for the D-Day landings.

Battleships Six battleships took part: three British and three US:
Cruisers Twenty-three cruisers (17 British and Commonwealth, 3 US, 2 Free French and 1 Polish)
Destroyers & escorts 135 ships (eighty-five British and Dominion, 39 US, 7 Free French and 7 other Allied):
Other warships 508 ships (352 British, 154 US and 2 other Allied):


In total, 47 divisions would be committed to the Battle of Normandy: 19 British, 5 Canadian and 1 Polish divisions under overall British command, and 21 American divisions with 1 Free French division, totaling 140,000 troops.

Now please tell me after you look at the facts that if the other allies were not fighting along side the US do you honestly think that the US would have won this operation on it's own.

If you want I can provide information for almost all the major battles fought during the war. I will give to the Americans they did win the Pacific sea war. I do not know the exact composition but I think about 90% of the forces there were American.

I think the Germans wouldve finally realized that the Brits were never gonna be able to invade Europe by themselves, and in such case Germany wouldve started to make an Air Force that would challenge the Brits for air superiority over England. Remember Germany did have jet fighter aircraft and if they couldve mass produced them and had ample time to train the pilots, they wouldve been able to beat England. England had alot of pilots that were very well trained with good planes. Germany had alot of pilots that were'nt as good with awseome planes. Basically what i'm saying is it all came down to quality of the pilots in which case England had. Germany, by far had better planes but not enough well trained men to fly them.

As far as the D-day landings, yea England supplied most of the vessels for the battle but i'm sure the US sold them alot of those (correct me if i'm wrong). Not to mention almost half of the invading forces were American.
Does your 140,000 factor in the Airborne guys? We had kinda of a large part in that too along with the Brits.
Not saying that the US couldve pulled the D-day landings on their own but you cant honestly tell me that the Brits wouldve been able to invade and liberate Europe by themselves either.

Another thing is that during the Battle of the Bulge pretty much if not all of the forces defending against the German offensive were American. Ummm...the US helped end the war in North Africa and Italy much sooner than England wouldve been able to do by themselves. I'm not saying that England couldnt have done it without US help but creating a second front from the West  in Africa certainly helped the Brits in defeating Rommel quicker.

As far as the war in the Pacific goes, it was pretty much an all US war with the exception of some Aussie units and a couple Brits as well.

The brits had dehavviland comets or aircraft of the sort and the US was working on the P80 while Germany had Me262's air supperiority is just the air you might be able to keep down the armour etc but troops can hide  everywhere. Even though "AS" is very important you cant win a war over just that. This can be argued with the use of nukes but that is still an in effective way to fight a war.

"Its funny watching a bunch of 9th graders fight over the same topic again and again" QFT

Maybe some of the older people should help me to help educate these people. So they have correct facts and a small amount of background knowledge.