QFTPug wrote:
Actually he didn't take 34 minutes to die. He took 27 years (when he was arrested) plus 34 minutes to die.
That's much too long.
Poll
Should the death penalty be banned
| Yes. Who are we to judge | 20% | 20% - 53 | ||||
| No. You get what you deserve | 70% | 70% - 184 | ||||
| Undecided. Still thinking on that one | 9% | 9% - 24 | ||||
| Total: 261 | ||||||
Believing in God does not mean you don't believe in justice. As stated earlier "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth…" (Exodus 21:23-25) The Bible reveals many instaces of killing in the name of justice or self protection.The_Shipbuilder wrote:
I'm curious to hear from Christians in favor of the death penalty. How can you justify your support, given the fundamental teachings and beliefs of your faith?
The first mention of capital punishment as a penalty for murder is in Genesis 9:6:
"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." (KJV)
According to Numb 35:31 there are criminals which "deserves to die". In the Old Testament the following crimes deserved the death penalty:
1. Murder (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:12, Numb 35:16-21).
2. Abuse of father or mother (Ex 21:15).
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
4. Blasphemy against God (Lev 24:14-16,23).
5. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
8. Religious people who mislead others to fall away (Deut 13:1-5, 18:20).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
11. If two people have intercourse when one of them is engaged. (Deut 22:23-24).
12. The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (Lev 21:9).
13. Rape of someone who is engaged (Deut 22:25).
14. Having intercourse with animals (Ex 22:19).
15. Worshipping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).
16. Incest (Lev 20:11-12, 14, 19-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
18. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16).
19. To bear false testimony at a trial (Deut 19:16, 19).
20. Contempt of court (Deut 17:8-13).
The manner of execution in the Old Testament could be stoning, burning, using a sword, spear or arrow (Lev 20:27, 21:9, Ex 19:13, 32:27, Numb 25:7-8).
Taken from: The death penalty -a defence.
I can't wait till Kracker sees this. He's guilty of at least 15. LOL
Last edited by GATOR591957 (2006-12-14 09:47:43)
I know I will be forgiven for condemming a murderer to death. (sarcastic, in case you miss it)The_Shipbuilder wrote:
I'm curious to hear from Christians in favor of the death penalty. How can you justify your support, given the fundamental teachings and beliefs of your faith?
Plus the justice system isn't religion, sort of a sacrifice for society.
Plus the bible is for the death penalty for some crimes, although I'm not going to argue along those lines basically because this vein also includes Christianity extremists that include homosexuality as punishable as well. (Edit see above post...)
I'm not a bible beater, but I rationalize an exception for those that deserve the death penalty.
Last edited by Pug (2006-12-14 09:47:25)
Interesting. What are "laws of the land"? Does this mean that God take his laws from the common laws of Israel?ncc6206 wrote:
By basic doctrine its frowned upon.,yet it can be justified because of the biblical principle of adhering to laws of the land. A lot of anti death penalties are supported by various religious groups. Most Christians that I know of support the death penalty under the old Mosaic law of "eye for an eye". Any other religious groups out there care to share their views.The_Shipbuilder wrote:
I'm curious to hear from Christians in favor of the death penalty. How can you justify your support, given the fundamental teachings and beliefs of your faith?
With so many conflicting teachings in the bible, how do Christians decide which teaching should be the one to which you adhere?
In Matthew 5, Jesus teaches that people should go beyond "eye for eye" and instead turn the other cheek - essentially to champion forgiveness even to one's enemies. Doesn't the death penalty constitute an institutionalized betrayal of Jesus's teachings?
Exodus 20:13 wrote:
Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 21 wrote:
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Leviticus 24:17 wrote:
If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death.
Matthew 5 wrote:
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Do Christians believe that those crimes deserve the death penalty?GATOR591957 wrote:
In the Old Testament the following crimes deserved the death penalty:
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
If not, why not?
Laws of the land = country's justice system.The_Shipbuilder wrote:
Interesting. What are "laws of the land"? Does this mean that God take his laws from the common laws of Israel?
With so many conflicting teachings in the bible, how do Christians decide which teaching should be the one to which you adhere?
In Matthew 5, Jesus teaches that people should go beyond "eye for eye" and instead turn the other cheek - essentially to champion forgiveness even to one's enemies. Doesn't the death penalty constitute an institutionalized betrayal of Jesus's teachings?
What to adhere to = interpretations based on direction from the church usually.
Death penalty institutionalized betrayal = Church doesn't run the country.
i posted the christian belief not, because i am a christian, but the united states is a more religious nation than we are. if you listen to speeches of gwb or others, god is mentioned in every second sentence...
whatever... i just wanted to appeal to those of you, who call themselves christians (and an eye for an eye is in the old testament.. this might rely to jewish beliefs. for christians, the new testament counts)
some thoughts on death penalty:
- there is always the possibility, that you kill an innocent and in fact, there are many innocent killed because of failures in justice
- it costs more, to kill someone, than to lock him up his whole life. so you do not save money by killing them (is tax money more worth than life?)
- people can change. i read about a priest, who was a murderer once and spent more than 20 years in prison. this changed the person he was into a beloved and good member of society.
- which criterias does someone have to fulfill, to deserve death penalty? if someone is responsible for another persons death? if someone killed somebody for a reason, that you and me understand? if someone kills somebody, because he had fun, doing it?
there are many kinds of murderers. which one should be killed?
- does the death penalty bring any effort ? no it doesn´t. people don´t stop killing each other, just because they might get killed, too.
death penalty is there for only one reason. the lynchmob wants revenge.
but revenge is not just - you don´t get justice by doing the same to the criminal.
not long ago, people get hung up, because they have stolen a cow. did they deserve it? hung up - for a cow?
in many asian countries you get death penalty for small amounts of drugs. in the netherlands, you can buy these in coffeeshops. is this just? death for drugs?
in arabian countries, women get death penalty for having outermarital (don´t know if thats the word) sex. they throw stones at her, until she is dead... only because she had a lover. death for sex?
you have to ask yourselves one thing:
who made up the criterias that separates the people from the criminals from those who deserve to die?
and is it fair justice to kill one innocent, just to get rid of 10 killers? what if they catch you?
quote from dostoevski: the degree of civilisation can be seen on the treatment of their prisoners.
america still kills - because many people think, it is the easiest way to deal with problems...
whatever... i just wanted to appeal to those of you, who call themselves christians (and an eye for an eye is in the old testament.. this might rely to jewish beliefs. for christians, the new testament counts)
some thoughts on death penalty:
- there is always the possibility, that you kill an innocent and in fact, there are many innocent killed because of failures in justice
- it costs more, to kill someone, than to lock him up his whole life. so you do not save money by killing them (is tax money more worth than life?)
- people can change. i read about a priest, who was a murderer once and spent more than 20 years in prison. this changed the person he was into a beloved and good member of society.
- which criterias does someone have to fulfill, to deserve death penalty? if someone is responsible for another persons death? if someone killed somebody for a reason, that you and me understand? if someone kills somebody, because he had fun, doing it?
there are many kinds of murderers. which one should be killed?
- does the death penalty bring any effort ? no it doesn´t. people don´t stop killing each other, just because they might get killed, too.
death penalty is there for only one reason. the lynchmob wants revenge.
but revenge is not just - you don´t get justice by doing the same to the criminal.
not long ago, people get hung up, because they have stolen a cow. did they deserve it? hung up - for a cow?
in many asian countries you get death penalty for small amounts of drugs. in the netherlands, you can buy these in coffeeshops. is this just? death for drugs?
in arabian countries, women get death penalty for having outermarital (don´t know if thats the word) sex. they throw stones at her, until she is dead... only because she had a lover. death for sex?
you have to ask yourselves one thing:
who made up the criterias that separates the people from the criminals from those who deserve to die?
and is it fair justice to kill one innocent, just to get rid of 10 killers? what if they catch you?
quote from dostoevski: the degree of civilisation can be seen on the treatment of their prisoners.
america still kills - because many people think, it is the easiest way to deal with problems...
I would have argued they are all ridiculous except for #1 on the list - murder.The_Shipbuilder wrote:
Do Christians believe that those crimes deserve the death penalty?GATOR591957 wrote:
In the Old Testament the following crimes deserved the death penalty:
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
If not, why not?
The answer you are seeking is that some actually do, the WTF ones.
Wow, I love religion now. What a bunch of fucking idiots.GATOR591957 wrote:
According to Numb 35:31 there are criminals which "deserves to die". In the Old Testament the following crimes deserved the death penalty:
1. Murder (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:12, Numb 35:16-21).
2. Abuse of father or mother (Ex 21:15).
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
4. Blasphemy against God (Lev 24:14-16,23).
5. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
8. Religious people who mislead others to fall away (Deut 13:1-5, 18:20).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
11. If two people have intercourse when one of them is engaged. (Deut 22:23-24).
12. The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (Lev 21:9).
13. Rape of someone who is engaged (Deut 22:25).
14. Having intercourse with animals (Ex 22:19).
15. Worshipping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).
16. Incest (Lev 20:11-12, 14, 19-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
18. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16).
19. To bear false testimony at a trial (Deut 19:16, 19).
20. Contempt of court (Deut 17:8-13).
The manner of execution in the Old Testament could be stoning, burning, using a sword, spear or arrow (Lev 20:27, 21:9, Ex 19:13, 32:27, Numb 25:7-8).
Taken from: The death penalty -a defence.
I can't wait till Kracker sees this. He's guilty of at least 15. LOL
The procedure of the death penalty will cost the taxpayer more than it would for a life incarceration. Neither does the death penalty prevent further crimes that may bear capital punishment.
As well, remember the story of David Milgaard, the man who spent 23 years in prison for a crime he did commit. If capital punishment were legal in Canada, he would be dead. However, the most telling fact of the death penalty, and its advocates and opponents, is that we each have moral convictions over the matter, and it is difficult to convince each other, especially over semantics such as costs and statistics, which seem to matter little to each side.
As well, remember the story of David Milgaard, the man who spent 23 years in prison for a crime he did commit. If capital punishment were legal in Canada, he would be dead. However, the most telling fact of the death penalty, and its advocates and opponents, is that we each have moral convictions over the matter, and it is difficult to convince each other, especially over semantics such as costs and statistics, which seem to matter little to each side.
Your original question was about Christians believing in the death penalty. I gave you proof the bible allows it.The_Shipbuilder wrote:
Do Christians believe that those crimes deserve the death penalty?GATOR591957 wrote:
In the Old Testament the following crimes deserved the death penalty:
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
If not, why not?
As ridiculous as it seems, some do believe this. I guess you would call them Orthodox. As time has passed the "strict" adherence has waned.
Last edited by GATOR591957 (2006-12-14 10:13:16)
well if you can torture and inprison people without trial than you can certainly take 20-30 minutes to kill a legaly convicted murderer. Democracy and human rights have gone to shit long time ago.
Sounds like a successful execution.
It's hard to take the moral high ground when you have lost someone close to you in a brutal manner. Closure is hard to come by. Here in Florida we had a girl get kidnapped, raped, and murdered. The kidnapping was caught on surveillances [http://www.amw1.com/carlie_brucia.htm]Carlie Brucia[/url].
Or Jessica Lunsford who was kidnapped, raped, and buried alive with no pants on holding her teddy bear face down in a black trash bag.. This guy had been convicted before on child molestation . Admited in a taped video conversation.
John Couey related that Jessica did not appear a virgin the first time they had sexual intercourse, stating she did not cry or yell out, and in fact smiled and said it felt like she was having her period.
Slam dunk cases should ensure that monsters who prey on our children should be removed from society in the most permanent manner. Most who disagree most likely do not have children and can not understand the same way a parent does.
The first thing we need to do is make sure we have more stringent laws protecting our children. It appears that most of these attacks are by repeat offenders. It's fucking ridiculous. http://www.jessicamarielunsford.com/
Or Jessica Lunsford who was kidnapped, raped, and buried alive with no pants on holding her teddy bear face down in a black trash bag.. This guy had been convicted before on child molestation . Admited in a taped video conversation.
John Couey related that Jessica did not appear a virgin the first time they had sexual intercourse, stating she did not cry or yell out, and in fact smiled and said it felt like she was having her period.
Slam dunk cases should ensure that monsters who prey on our children should be removed from society in the most permanent manner. Most who disagree most likely do not have children and can not understand the same way a parent does.
The first thing we need to do is make sure we have more stringent laws protecting our children. It appears that most of these attacks are by repeat offenders. It's fucking ridiculous. http://www.jessicamarielunsford.com/
Last edited by Kmarion (2006-12-14 10:18:07)
Xbone Stormsurgezz
problem solved. Feet first so we can hear them scream for a split second.ATG wrote:
Solution: pull one of these into the prison yard.
http://i10.tinypic.com/334hlyg.jpg
http://i12.tinypic.com/40emm3m.jpg
Give them a pint of vodka and some valium and rig a conveyour belt feeding them in after they pass out.
Malloy must go
but you first remove the "monsters" after they did it. so you don´t protect your children from getting raped, by death penalty. you would only get YOUR revenge.
I guess you didnt read the end of my post.[pt] KEIOS wrote:
but you first remove the "monsters" after they did it. so you don´t protect your children from getting raped, by death penalty. you would only get YOUR revenge.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
But I wasn't interested in proof that the Bible "allows" it. I'm well familiar with the passages people use to justify their opinions. What I'm interested to discuss is people's reactions to contradictions in the document that forms the basis of their religion, and thus their worldview and system of beliefs.GATOR591957 wrote:
Your original question was about Christians believing in the death penalty. I gave you proof the bible allows it.
Certainly as you ctrl-c ctrl-v'd from elsewhere, people who support the death penalty can quote specific passages which seem to support their stance. But others who are against the death penalty can quote other specific passages to support their diametrically-opposeing viewpoint.
Here's the thing, and I'm interested to hear from Christians with ANY stance on the death penalty.
Clearly the Bible encourages the following:
1) Thou shalt not kill
2) lex talionis (eg eye for an eye, life for a life)
3) In certain circumstances, it's OK to kill someone else
4) Jesus says to go beyond lex talionis, and to be above all that by forgiving even our enemies
If you are Christian and have ANY opinion on the death penalty, your belief directly violates SOME teaching of the Bible. To Christians in favor of the death penalty, how and why do you choose to support "eye for an eye" when Jesus teaches that we should be above that? For Christians against the death penalty, what about the many very specific examples that God spoke to Moses of when it is OK to kill someone? Do you believe God was wrong to say this? If God instructed us to kill any woman who has sex before marriage, how can anyone deny his direct orders and still call themselves Christian?
Shipbuilder - this is the answer to your question.GATOR591957 wrote:
Your original question was about Christians believing in the death penalty. I gave you proof the bible allows it.The_Shipbuilder wrote:
Do Christians believe that those crimes deserve the death penalty?GATOR591957 wrote:
In the Old Testament the following crimes deserved the death penalty:
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
If not, why not?
As ridiculous as it seems, some do believe this. I guess you would call them Orthodox. As time has passed the "strict" adherence has waned.
No it doesn't. This gives names to WHO or WHAT, but my questions are WHY and HOW.Pug wrote:
Shipbuilder - this is the answer to your question.
I'm well aware that there are different interpretations of the Bible. I'm well aware that some people are old-school and some people take a modern stance.
As I think I've made plain in my post above, I'm interested to hear from Christians to tell me how they as individuals square their beliefs with conflicting teachings in the bible.
As ridiculous as it seems, some do believe this. I guess you would call them Orthodox. As time has passed the "strict" adherence has waned.
Except for making sure a person is in fact guilty, the biggest reason against the death penalty should be the mental strain on the legalized killer. If a prison guard flips the switch to the chair often enough, he might begin to enjoy it and start a new hobby outside of work.
As I think I've made plain in my post above, I'm interested to hear from Christians to tell me how they as individuals square their beliefs with conflicting teachings in the bible.Pug wrote:
As ridiculous as it seems, some do believe this. I guess you would call them Orthodox. As time has passed the "strict" adherence has waned.
No. You get what you deserve!!!
Because we have advanced 2,000 years, even though religion is stupid, and this topic has already become to religious, I dont think anyone believes that those things deserve death.The_Shipbuilder wrote:
Do Christians believe that those crimes deserve the death penalty?GATOR591957 wrote:
In the Old Testament the following crimes deserved the death penalty:
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
If not, why not?