KylieTastic
Games, Girls, Guinness
+85|6462|Cambridge, UK

Stingray24 wrote:

KylieTastic wrote:

So not just kill, but go do some genocide, and remember to show no mercy!

And the rest in not exactly the sort of thing that goes with the normal religious 'we gave the world morals' or  that religion teaches forgiveness etc....
If you want to cherry pick verses, go right ahead, but please attempt to give the context at least.  You just agreed that killing is justified during wartime.  I would not show mercy to the enemy on the battlefield that is trying to kill me.  It's basic survival and simple reality in any war.  Wars happen in every era in history and there are military actions in the Bible which were necessary to protect their nation.
Er.... when I agreed to killing in war personally thats only a defensive war....

Cherry pick verses: ffs if we don't quote any you say quote some!

In our courts if a man could be proved to be telling his followers to go do genocide we would judge them harshly. So what you saying? god was just having a bad day and didn't mean it? that passage is not about defense, or taking back what was taken, or killing someone as you say 'on the battlefield that is trying to kill me'... it was just pure kill with no mercy.
<[onex]>Headstone
Member
+102|6711|New York

EVieira wrote:

Many many terrible things have been done in the name of god or a  religion. But is that really the fault of the religion, or of the men who interpret it? Below are the ten commandments, with a little interpretation. If we lived more by them, wouldn't the world be a better place?

PS: I am NOT Catholic, the commandments are an example

     1. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.  Thou shalt not make to thyself any
        graven thing. (Worship only him, well if you believe than I think this one inst a problem)

     2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy  God in vain.  (Same as the first)

     3. Remember that thou keep holy the Lord's  day.  (Idem)

     4. Honor thy father and thy mother.  (Honor you ancestors. Totally abide by that one)

     5. Thou shalt not kill.  (No more wars?)

     6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.  (Adultery is not what you are thinking, its more than that...)

     7. Thou shalt not steal.  (Pretty straight to the point here)

     8. Thou shalt not bear false witness.  (No lies, no false hopes, just the truth. Wouldn't that be good?)

     9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife. (It's not necessarily your neighbor, its the companion of anyone else. Troy would still be standing if people followed this one)

     10.Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods. (I another words, don't envy others. God I hate envious people... )
Religion is a bad thing if it goes beyond ones self. When its used as a comfort or as a standard to live a good Moral life, then No, its not a bad thing. Its Real bad when your religion teaches that your religion and ONLY your s should be followed by all men, thats when it gets fucked up. Hmmmm reminds me of one in particular today.

4-10 should be the basis of living a decent life for ALL people, There's no mention of A God, and those 6 lay the ground work for a moral society. Now, if most people could just follow those simple guidelines, the world truly would be a better place.

Last edited by <[onex]>Headstone (2006-12-09 16:44:21)

Drakef
Cheeseburger Logicist
+117|6371|Vancouver
Even the Ten Commandments are no necessarily a great thing. If you want to hear my take on the Ten Commandments, listen to George Carlin. He knows what he's talking about.

"Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10?

You simply do not need ten. The list of ten commandments was artificially and deliberately inflated to get it up to ten. Here's what happened:

About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around.

Well let me ask you this- when they were making this shit up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why- because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision! It is clearly a bullshit list. It's a political document artificially inflated to sell better. I will now show you how you can reduce the number of commandments and come up with a list that's a little more workable and logical. I am going to use the Roman Catholic version because those were the ones I was taught as a little boy.

Let's start with the first three:

I AM THE LORD THY GOD THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME

THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN

THOU SHALT KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH

Right off the bat the first three are pure bullshit. Sabbath day? Lord's name? strange gods? Spooky language! Designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of intelligent civilized humans in the 21st century. So now we're down to 7. Next:

HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER

Obedience, respect for authority. Just another name for controlling people. The truth is that obedience and respect shouldn't be automatic. They should be earned and based on the parent's performance. Some parents deserve respect, but most of them don't, period. You're down to six.

Now in the interest of logic, something religion is very uncomfortable with, we're going to jump around the list a little bit.

THOU SHALT NOT STEAL

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS

Stealing and lying. Well actually, these two both prohibit the same kind of behavior- dishonesty. So you don't really need two you combine them and call the commandment "thou shalt not be dishonest". And suddenly you're down to 5.

And as long as we're combining I have two others that belong together:

THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE

Once again, these two prohibit the same type of behavior. In this case it is marital infidelity. The difference is- coveting takes place in the mind. But I don't think you should outlaw fantasizing about someone else's wife because what is a guy gonna think about when he's waxing his carrot? But, marital infidelity is a good idea so we're gonna keep this one and call it "thou shalt not be unfaithful". And suddenly we're down to four.

But when you think about it, honesty and infidelity are really part of the same overall value so, in truth, you could combine the two honesty commandments with the two fidelity commandments and give them simpler language, positive language instead of negative language and call the whole thing "thou shalt always be honest and faithful" and we're down to 3.

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR"S GOODS

This one is just plain fuckin' stupid. Coveting your neighbor's goods is what keeps the economy going! Your neighbor gets a vibrator that plays "o come o ye faithful", and you want one too! Coveting creates jobs, so leave it alone. You throw out coveting and you're down to 2 now- the big honesty and fidelity commandment and the one we haven't talked about yet:

THOU SHALT NOT KILL

Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Cashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed. So, with all of this in mind, I give you my revised list of the two commandments:

Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.

&

Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.

Two is all you need; Moses could have carried them down the hill in his fuckin' pocket. I wouldn't mind those folks in Alabama posting them on the courthouse wall, as long as they provided one additional commandment:

Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself."
herrr_smity
Member
+156|6637|space command ur anus
Is religion such a bad thing. YES
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6377|Columbus, Ohio

herrr_smity wrote:

Is religion such a bad thing. YES
An Enlarged Liver
Member
+35|6753|Backward Ass Kansas
Yes.
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|6682|Colorado

usmarine2007 wrote:

herrr_smity wrote:

Is religion such a bad thing. YES
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6694|United States of America
Don't forget, religion tells people to eat babies and shoot kittens. [/sarcasm] (just for the purpose of shunning the less than intelligent individuals here)
<[onex]>Headstone
Member
+102|6711|New York

Drakef wrote:

Even the Ten Commandments are no necessarily a great thing. If you want to hear my take on the Ten Commandments, listen to George Carlin. He knows what he's talking about.

"Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10?

You simply do not need ten. The list of ten commandments was artificially and deliberately inflated to get it up to ten. Here's what happened:

About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around.

Well let me ask you this- when they were making this shit up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why- because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision! It is clearly a bullshit list. It's a political document artificially inflated to sell better. I will now show you how you can reduce the number of commandments and come up with a list that's a little more workable and logical. I am going to use the Roman Catholic version because those were the ones I was taught as a little boy.

Let's start with the first three:

I AM THE LORD THY GOD THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME

THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN

THOU SHALT KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH

Right off the bat the first three are pure bullshit. Sabbath day? Lord's name? strange gods? Spooky language! Designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of intelligent civilized humans in the 21st century. So now we're down to 7. Next:

HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER

Obedience, respect for authority. Just another name for controlling people. The truth is that obedience and respect shouldn't be automatic. They should be earned and based on the parent's performance. Some parents deserve respect, but most of them don't, period. You're down to six.

Now in the interest of logic, something religion is very uncomfortable with, we're going to jump around the list a little bit.

THOU SHALT NOT STEAL

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS

Stealing and lying. Well actually, these two both prohibit the same kind of behavior- dishonesty. So you don't really need two you combine them and call the commandment "thou shalt not be dishonest". And suddenly you're down to 5.

And as long as we're combining I have two others that belong together:

THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE

Once again, these two prohibit the same type of behavior. In this case it is marital infidelity. The difference is- coveting takes place in the mind. But I don't think you should outlaw fantasizing about someone else's wife because what is a guy gonna think about when he's waxing his carrot? But, marital infidelity is a good idea so we're gonna keep this one and call it "thou shalt not be unfaithful". And suddenly we're down to four.

But when you think about it, honesty and infidelity are really part of the same overall value so, in truth, you could combine the two honesty commandments with the two fidelity commandments and give them simpler language, positive language instead of negative language and call the whole thing "thou shalt always be honest and faithful" and we're down to 3.

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR"S GOODS

This one is just plain fuckin' stupid. Coveting your neighbor's goods is what keeps the economy going! Your neighbor gets a vibrator that plays "o come o ye faithful", and you want one too! Coveting creates jobs, so leave it alone. You throw out coveting and you're down to 2 now- the big honesty and fidelity commandment and the one we haven't talked about yet:

THOU SHALT NOT KILL

Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Cashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed. So, with all of this in mind, I give you my revised list of the two commandments:

Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.

&

Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.

Two is all you need; Moses could have carried them down the hill in his fuckin' pocket. I wouldn't mind those folks in Alabama posting them on the courthouse wall, as long as they provided one additional commandment:

Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself."
George carlin lost my respect when he used his show i paid to see as a Bush and a US bash fest. I dont know what hes got stuck up his ass, But i wanted my fucking money back.!
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6415|North Carolina

<[onex]>Headstone wrote:

George carlin lost my respect when he used his show i paid to see as a Bush and a US bash fest. I dont know what hes got stuck up his ass, But i wanted my fucking money back.!
Maybe he's just tired of how so many Americans have something stuck up their asses.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6591|SE London

I think the way the commandments are presented shows a lot about religion. The way all the early commandments are based around worshipping God and only the one 'proper' God and no others ever, is clearly a device to stop people following other religions. Why an all powerful God should do such a thing is hard to fathom, why a man trying to establish a religion might come up with such rules is clear to see.

God wrote:

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name. Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day. Honour your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. You shall not murder. Neither shall you commit adultery. Neither shall you steal. Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbour. Neither shall you covet your neighbour’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbour’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6455|The Land of Scott Walker

KylieTastic wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

If you want to cherry pick verses, go right ahead, but please attempt to give the context at least.  You just agreed that killing is justified during wartime.  I would not show mercy to the enemy on the battlefield that is trying to kill me.  It's basic survival and simple reality in any war.  Wars happen in every era in history and there are military actions in the Bible which were necessary to protect their nation.
Er.... when I agreed to killing in war personally thats only a defensive war....

Cherry pick verses: ffs if we don't quote any you say quote some!

In our courts if a man could be proved to be telling his followers to go do genocide we would judge them harshly. So what you saying? god was just having a bad day and didn't mean it? that passage is not about defense, or taking back what was taken, or killing someone as you say 'on the battlefield that is trying to kill me'... it was just pure kill with no mercy.
You picked that verse for maximum shock value, so I felt the need to give you the context.  We all know war is kill with no mercy, especially in that era.  Otherwise the enemies' decendent will come back and take over.  The Old Testament is some of the history of the Jewish race, through whom Jesus, the Messiah, was born.  The OT gives the backdrop for the New Testament and prophesies Jesus' birth and He enters in the New Testament.  The NT contains the details of the time of Jesus and His teachings which is the beginning of Christianity.  In light of that, the NT would most accurately represent the teachings to Christian followers.
Fen321
Member
+54|6507|Singularity
so yeah...about the ilogical consequences.... please do find a way to explain that one for me.
EVieira
Member
+105|6488|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Stingray24 wrote:

The NT contains the details of the time of Jesus and His teachings which is the beginning of Christianity.  In light of that, the NT would most accurately represent the teachings to Christian followers.
I would like to clear up something thats is recurring in this forum's religious threads. The New Testament is the foundation of Christian belief, not the old. Christianity comes from the word CHRIST, and his word are the NT. The Old Testament is the holy book of the Jewish.

The Old Testament is also much harsher than the New Testament.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
BVC
Member
+325|6705
My should a child be punished for the sins of its parents?  If the child has done no wrong, surely it deserves no punishment?
SpaceApollyon
Scratch where it itches
+41|6529|Finland

EVieira wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

The NT contains the details of the time of Jesus and His teachings which is the beginning of Christianity.  In light of that, the NT would most accurately represent the teachings to Christian followers.
I would like to clear up something thats is recurring in this forum's religious threads. The New Testament is the foundation of Christian belief, not the old. Christianity comes from the word CHRIST, and his word are the NT. The Old Testament is the holy book of the Jewish.

The Old Testament is also much harsher than the New Testament.
The foundation of Christian belief is not just the NT. The Genesis is the foundation for all religions, that use bible as their holy book. Christ is just the founder/lead character of that particular belief.

Why would you even try to differentiate Christianity from the OT?
You cant just pick parts of your holy book and say this is relevant, thats not.
If it is God's word, its all or nothing!
EVieira
Member
+105|6488|Lutenblaag, Molvania

SpaceApollyon wrote:

Why would you even try to differentiate Christianity from the OT?
You cant just pick parts of your holy book and say this is relevant, thats not.
If it is God's word, its all or nothing!
I'm not saying what's relevant or not, but most of the quotes presented here are from the Old Testament. And the foundation of Christianity IS the New Testament, since that's where Christianity began. Before that you had the Jewish and the Old Testament.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
SpaceApollyon
Scratch where it itches
+41|6529|Finland
But Christianity is based on beliefs in the OT, thats why the holy book is OT + NT, NOT the just NT
.:XDR:.PureFodder
Member
+105|6839

EVieira wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

Why would you even try to differentiate Christianity from the OT?
You cant just pick parts of your holy book and say this is relevant, thats not.
If it is God's word, its all or nothing!
I'm not saying what's relevant or not, but most of the quotes presented here are from the Old Testament. And the foundation of Christianity IS the New Testament, since that's where Christianity began. Before that you had the Jewish and the Old Testament.
But the God in the old testament is the same god as in the new testament, hence you can't separate the two. Christ supposedly is god, hence the old testament is just as relevant as the new one.
EVieira
Member
+105|6488|Lutenblaag, Molvania

SpaceApollyon wrote:

But Christianity is based on beliefs in the OT, thats why the holy book is OT + NT, NOT the just NT
True, but there are many things that the New and Old conflict each other. The OT is specially brutal, but one must consider the time it was written. The NT is much more a message of tolerance and forgiveness. But the foundation of Christianity if the New Testament, since it founded Christianity. The Old Testament must always be interpreted in light of the harsh times it was written in.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)

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