Oceania is this vague sorta area of the pacific...I'm in Oceania right now, but I'm sitting on an island not a continent.
i think Australia and New Zealand should become a continent on their own and those little dots in the pacific can become part of Asia
Well, doesn't matter what continent we believe we are on. the above statement is still true.sergeriver wrote:
Well, basically yes, Mayas, Aztecs and Incas. The indians of Argentina's another story, we killed them with no European help at all.Pug wrote:
You mean Central & South America right?
Most of the gold & silver went to Spain, and they blew it all on wars.
There was a peak and a steep fall for the spanish. So I believe your theory is incorrect about them owing their rich lifestyle to raping central & south america.
This is by far the most intense debate i've ever read.....
Whether or not we choose to acknowledge it, all continents are stuck on Planet Earth. That means we've all been stealing from ourselves. DAMN US ALL!
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-12-08 03:59:20)
I'm alive today, so I critisize the wrongdoings of my time. That is not to say that I approve of past injustices. It's just that there's not much I can do now about the native Americans' gold being stolen. I can however be reminded of them, so thnx for posting this.sergeriver wrote:
Question:
Have you ever thought for a while that Europe is strong today thanks to America's (the whole continent America) gold and silver, which Europeans stole since Columbus Discovery? Isn't it hypocrite to criticize other countries policies, when you are enjoying the fruit your forefathers stole from another Continent, leaving behind only death and misery? How do you pay for reparations to Aztecs or Incas? I'm not talking just about gold and silver, but of their lives.
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The way I see it is that I don't expect the UK to pay me reparations for their barbarity in Ireland so I don't see how reasonable it is to expect reparations if I was an Aztec or Inca, etc. The best we can do is to make sure the rights and culture of the indigenous peoples alive today are protected and that they are given every opportunity to progress in life. For instance in Panama they have several autonomous regions administered by native tribes such as the Kuna Yala and Ngobé Bugle, that affords them a very large degree of control over their own destiny. The American Indian reservation system in USA was an insulting and degrading mess but the casino laws have given many Native American families the opportunity to become very rich (at the expense of their culture, heritage and way of life though - something some might consider priceless).
The point is that the horrible treatment of the people of the new world was deplorable but is sadly irreversible. What form reparations might take or who should pay them is a difficult nettle to grasp. Should it just be descendents of the original conquistadores and members of European aristocracy? Because let's face it: Europe was full of poor people too that never benefited from the raping and pillaging the ruling classes indulged in abroad.
The point is that the horrible treatment of the people of the new world was deplorable but is sadly irreversible. What form reparations might take or who should pay them is a difficult nettle to grasp. Should it just be descendents of the original conquistadores and members of European aristocracy? Because let's face it: Europe was full of poor people too that never benefited from the raping and pillaging the ruling classes indulged in abroad.
You can't pay for reparations. Three major empires were destroyed mostly by Spain, and preserving their culture is the only thing you can do today. It was a rhetoric question, How do you pay for reparations? Of course people of today has nothing to do with that, but what we can do is to prevent this happening again. If you don't know what was wrongly done in the past you could make the same mistakes in the future.CameronPoe wrote:
The way I see it is that I don't expect the UK to pay me reparations for their barbarity in Ireland so I don't see how reasonable it is to expect reparations if I was an Aztec or Inca, etc. The best we can do is to make sure the rights and culture of the indigenous peoples alive today are protected and that they are given every opportunity to progress in life. For instance in Panama they have several autonomous regions administered by native tribes such as the Kuna Yala and Ngobé Bugle, that affords them a very large degree of control over their own destiny. The American Indian reservation system in USA was an insulting and degrading mess but the casino laws have given many Native American families the opportunity to become very rich (at the expense of their culture, heritage and way of life though - something some might consider priceless).
The point is that the horrible treatment of the people of the new world was deplorable but is sadly irreversible. What form reparations might take or who should pay them is a difficult nettle to grasp. Should it just be descendents of the original conquistadores and members of European aristocracy? Because let's face it: Europe was full of poor people too that never benefited from the raping and pillaging the ruling classes indulged in abroad.
And I regret posting this. Everybody took it the wrong way. At last all ended in an "America is not a continent" argument. How can we fix anything, when we can't avoid a discussion about the meaning of America, or The Americas for US. Some people call it America, some call it The Americas, who cares? What is relevant is the massacre of pre-Columbian cultures.
Last edited by sergeriver (2006-12-08 07:20:23)
What about the present? There a thousands of works of Italian works of art sitting in french museums, sacked during the Napoleonic wars. There are thousands of Egyptian relics in museums and private collections of England, stolen during centuries of continuous digging by English explores. Every year, thousands of exotic species are smuggled from the Amazon and sent to pharmaceutical labs in Europe.sergeriver wrote:
Question:
Have you ever thought for a while that Europe is strong today thanks to America's (the whole continent America) gold and silver, which Europeans stole since Columbus Discovery? Isn't it hypocrite to criticize other countries policies, when you are enjoying the fruit your forefathers stole from another Continent, leaving behind only death and misery? How do you pay for reparations to Aztecs or Incas? I'm not talking just about gold and silver, but of their lives.
The world is still the same, hasn't changed one bit. The difference now is that there is no more gold or silver to take, and you don't want to kill off the natives. You want them alive buying your imports.
How can you expect any form of reparations when the crimes are still being comitted?
PS.: On a side note, President Lula in a visit to the African continent apologized for the years of slavery. I thought it was a decent gesture to make.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
WOOHOO! Hey, if you can't defend your land then its your own damn fault.
It's because we have BIG shlongs.King_County_Downy wrote:
She ran off with the stable boy and started a family. This may not sound like a big deal, but back then, it was huge. She sacrificed all her wealth for the love of an Indian. WAY taboo!
As well as the cultural suicide conducted by pre-Columbian cultures.sergeriver wrote:
What is relevant is the massacre of pre-Columbian cultures.
is there any country that was not "stolen" from someone somewhere down the line?sergeriver wrote:
America, the Stolen Continent:
Spiritual malaise and social turmoil were rife in 15th century Europe. Epidemic diseases and famine raged. Death was omnipresent. War was widespread and institutions of authority like the Church were venal and corrupt. The 'discovery' of America offered the possibility of a new beginning for Europe. Unfortunately, the invading powers chose to solve their problems at the expense of the new land and the native Americans who lived there. COLUMBUS hungered for gold but found little. However his followers did: Cortes plundered the Aztec temples and Pizarro stole shiploads of Inca wealth. But while Indians worked the Spanish mines of Bolivia and Mexico, most of the wealth eventually wound up in the pockets of Dutch, British and French businessmen.
The old European mercantile economy was shaken by the massive injection of American wealth. In 1500, Europe had $200 million worth of gold and silver: a century later the amount was eight times greater. Inflation sent the value of precious metals plummeting worldwide. (The Ottoman Empire saw the value of its silver hoard fall 50 per cent by 1584, knocking the Islamic power from contention as a major trading bloc.) And as the American booty spread around Europe, a new merchant and capitalist class was launched.
Soon the British and Dutch expanded into North America, India, China and southeast Asia. By 1750 a truly global trading network had been established with Europe in firm control. The catalyst: American gold and silver.
Source: Jack Weatherford, from his book Indian Givers.
Question:
Have you ever thought for a while that Europe is strong today thanks to America's (the whole continent America) gold and silver, which Europeans stole since Columbus Discovery? Isn't it hypocrite to criticize other countries policies, when you are enjoying the fruit your forefathers stole from another Continent, leaving behind only death and misery? How do you pay for reparations to Aztecs or Incas? I'm not talking just about gold and silver, but of their lives.
You just want our sheepMongoose wrote:
i think Australia and New Zealand should become a continent on their own and those little dots in the pacific can become part of Asia
There was an article recently, some Aussie panel proposed a currency union with NZ...its an idea that pops up from time to time, but always seems to be rejected by whichever country isn't proposing it. I don't think its a bad idea TBH.
your right ATG...and while were at it...dont forget Australia, which was stolen from the aborigines, by some European country, to create of all things, a prison. (no offense to you aussies of course)ATG wrote:
Seems like a lot of you are missing the point.
Serge is calling Europeans hypocrites because he claims much of the wealth in Europe came from the early conquests of the Americas, which is a common excuse for Europeans to dislike America, that being, they say we raped and pilage the land and don't deserve anything.
Interesting notion, but he provides no links to support his claim.
While gold and treasure were certainly motivators, to say that the plunder of the Americas is mostly responible for Europes current stature is specious at best.
I'm quite sure, SOUTH America has quite a few dirty little secrets. Up until the middle 19th century (at least), they were still doing sacrifices at teh altar.
Last edited by smtt686 (2006-12-08 22:09:49)