sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7016|Argentina
America, the Stolen Continent:

Spiritual malaise and social turmoil were rife in 15th century Europe. Epidemic diseases and famine raged. Death was omnipresent. War was widespread and institutions of authority like the Church were venal and corrupt. The 'discovery' of America offered the possibility of a new beginning for Europe. Unfortunately, the invading powers chose to solve their problems at the expense of the new land and the native Americans who lived there.  COLUMBUS hungered for gold but found little. However his followers did: Cortes plundered the Aztec temples and Pizarro stole shiploads of Inca wealth. But while Indians worked the Spanish mines of Bolivia and Mexico, most of the wealth eventually wound up in the pockets of Dutch, British and French businessmen.

The old European mercantile economy was shaken by the massive injection of American wealth. In 1500, Europe had $200 million worth of gold and silver: a century later the amount was eight times greater. Inflation sent the value of precious metals plummeting worldwide. (The Ottoman Empire saw the value of its silver hoard fall 50 per cent by 1584, knocking the Islamic power from contention as a major trading bloc.) And as the American booty spread around Europe, a new merchant and capitalist class was launched.

Soon the British and Dutch expanded into North America, India, China and southeast Asia. By 1750 a truly global trading network had been established with Europe in firm control. The catalyst: American gold and silver.

Source: Jack Weatherford, from his book Indian Givers.

Question:
Have you ever thought for a while that Europe is strong today thanks to America's (the whole continent America) gold and silver, which Europeans stole since Columbus Discovery?  Isn't it hypocrite to criticize other countries policies, when you are enjoying the fruit your forefathers stole from another Continent, leaving behind only death and misery?  How do you pay for reparations to Aztecs or Incas?  I'm not talking just about gold and silver, but of their lives.
Kaosdad
Whisky Tango Foxtrot?
+201|6938|Broadlands, VA
So, is it safe to assume that you are native, pure blood Incan?  Otherwise, you're a freaking hypocrite.  How do YOU justify enjoying the fruits of the invading Spaniards who wiped out the Inca?

Just wondering.
King_County_Downy
shitfaced
+2,791|6856|Seattle

I have 2 kinds of American Indian in me. Iroquois and Cherokee.

Fun fact 1: Iroquois Indians are from Canada eh, they discovered teh Maple Syrup we love so much on pancakes. They stole the technology from Squirrels.

Fun fact 2: My great great great grandmother was General Lee's first cousin. She was very wealthy and owned many slaves, some of which were Cherokee Indians. She ran off with the stable boy and started a family. This may not sound like a big deal, but back then, it was huge. She sacrificed all her wealth for the love of an Indian. WAY taboo!

Anyways, I think along with the African Americans they are far better off now than they would've been had the Europeans never came over at all. Yes, they suffered for many years, but I think in the long run, it's worked out for the best. Someone would've conquered them eventually, whether it was the Chinese or the Germans, who knows...but I think life today is pretty good comparatively speaking.
Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6704|The Land of Scott Walker

sergeriver wrote:

[Question:
Have you ever thought for a while that Europe is strong today thanks to America's (the whole continent America) gold and silver, which Europeans stole since Columbus Discovery?  Isn't it hypocrite to criticize other countries policies, when you are enjoying the fruit your forefathers stole from another Continent, leaving behind only death and misery?  How do you pay for reparations to Aztecs or Incas?  I'm not talking just about gold and silver, but of their lives.
No, it's no hypocritical.  I did not commit those crimes, so sorry no reparations.  No matter what race one is, they're ancestors committed some horrible crime at some point back in history.  Let's live for today instead of causing racial tensions by focusing on the past.
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6808|Southeastern USA
I can't wait to see apoco
apploco
apoclotipsi



i can't wait to see the new movie about the Mayans.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6801|Texas - Bigger than France
You mean Central & South America right?
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7016|Argentina

Kaosdad008 wrote:

So, is it safe to assume that you are native, pure blood Incan?  Otherwise, you're a freaking hypocrite.  How do YOU justify enjoying the fruits of the invading Spaniards who wiped out the Inca?

Just wondering.
No, I'm a mix between Russian, Croatian, Lithuan, Bosnian.  And yes I'm a huge hypocrite too.
Drakef
Cheeseburger Logicist
+117|6620|Vancouver
More tragedies have occurred throughout history other than what befell the Native Americans (for clarification, that is of all the Americas). Yes, they had resources stolen and lives lost. A scene that has been happened repeatedly throughout history, to all peoples. The Americas are just one situation. It is merely a natural human occurance to commit such acts, especially in war, and to decide that reparations are deserved to everyone who has ever suffered is ridiculous. We are not our forefathers. Leave the past behind. Is the past so direly important? It, amusingly enough, happened hundreds of years ago. Clearly, those of us today have established that such acts were not appropriate, and we have even apologized to some. Apologies to those who weren't there from those who weren't there. Ironic, eh?

Listen. I'm not in favour of reparations to any American Indian. Not one bit. They have already been given enough or been apologized enough to, and need to join society as full members, not anarchists who, every generation, begin demands for the crimes of the past. There is no need for these blockades that occasionally occur in Ontario or Quebec, for example. I'm not in favour of reparations as much as I'm not in favour of repairing the damage that the Crusaders did to the citizens of Jerusalem during the First Crusade. Do the actions of our ancestors forever condemn us? No, because we are not our ancestors. We are different people, and so are the descendants of the Native Americans who lost land and lives.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6801|Texas - Bigger than France

kr@cker wrote:

I can't wait to see apoco
apploco
apoclotipsi



i can't wait to see the new movie about the Mayans.
Why's that?  I'll probably see it, but what I've seen in the previews I can't figure out what its about.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7016|Argentina

Pug wrote:

You mean Central & South America right?
Well, basically yes, Mayas, Aztecs and Incas.  The indians of Argentina's another story, we killed them with no European help at all.
Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|6913|United States of America
I have English, German, Dutch, and "Native American" blood in me.  Even if I pay reparations to myself I will still hate myself for what I did to myself before I was myself many centuries ago.

Dammit, all this liberal nonsense about oweing people shit for shit you have nothing to do with is causing me mental anguish.  I need to sue someone.  Nice going Bush!
herrr_smity
Member
+156|6886|space command ur anus
nope in my contry we have Brent crude
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6808|Southeastern USA

Pug wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

I can't wait to see apoco
apploco
apoclotipsi



i can't wait to see the new movie about the Mayans.
Why's that?  I'll probably see it, but what I've seen in the previews I can't figure out what its about.
most people that don't like it don't because it's subtitled, yesterday in a store the employees were talking about it and one said "yeah, that mel gibson movie, it's subtitled and i'm like ok "gimmick", but i rented mr. and mrs. smith and watched that last night, now that was a good movie"

i tried my best not to laugh my ass off

It's basically a "day in the life of a mayan" movie, supposedly quite brutal, i've heard the scoring, photography, casting and all were top shelf. i try to avoid stories with plot elements as i don't like knowing anything about the movie beforehand, i wouldn't tell you if i knew either, i'm a movie nut and have very strict movie rules.

I also heard that children should be kept far and away from it
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7030|PNW

Fact: If the 'Native Americans' weren't pussyfooting around with each other all the years they had the Americas to themselves, they would have been the ones to discover Europe, and would've rocked its economy on their own terms.

No sympathy.

Major_Spittle wrote:

I have English, German, Dutch, and "Native American" blood in me.  Even if I pay reparations to myself I will still hate myself for what I did to myself before I was myself many centuries ago.

Dammit, all this liberal nonsense about oweing people shit for shit you have nothing to do with is causing me mental anguish.  I need to sue someone.  Nice going Bush!
My Mom was adopted, so I have no idea what's really going on there. All I really know for sure is that I owe myself big for damages done to Irish immigrants.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-12-07 12:00:04)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6814
This thread is flamelicious.
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6626|Columbus, Ohio

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Fact: If the 'Native Americans' weren't pussyfooting around with each other all the years they had the Americas to themselves, they would have been the ones to discover Europe, and would've rocked its economy on their own terms.

No sympathy.
Ya, I never really understood that.  The Europeans came over here and look how this country grew. 

What the hell were they doing?
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6808|Southeastern USA
the "natives" were just as guilty of double crossing and inhuman atrocitites as any of the europeans, in fact if it had not been for the disease factor most of the conquistas wouldn't have made it much farther than the shorelines
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6801|Texas - Bigger than France

kr@cker wrote:

most people that don't like it don't because it's subtitled, yesterday in a store the employees were talking about it and one said "yeah, that mel gibson movie, it's subtitled and i'm like ok "gimmick", but i rented mr. and mrs. smith and watched that last night, now that was a good movie"

i tried my best not to laugh my ass off

It's basically a "day in the life of a mayan" movie, supposedly quite brutal, i've heard the scoring, photography, casting and all were top shelf. i try to avoid stories with plot elements as i don't like knowing anything about the movie beforehand, i wouldn't tell you if i knew either, i'm a movie nut and have very strict movie rules.

I also heard that children should be kept far and away from it
No, not because its subtitled.  I've seen plenty of subtitled movies and enjoyed them (like Crouching Tiger, Le Femme Nikita, Rambo/Rocky) but its more of the overwhelming feeling I got during the preview - "WTF is going on?  Dances with Wolves meets Predator.  Great, I fucking hate those movies."

Anyhow - should be good.  Not many movie options - it's been a pretty shitty year for flicks, but what else are you going to see?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA
America was conquered by the Europeans??!!!...........Boy, ya just learn somethin' new everyday! Let me guess, you have an article that says Bush was in on it.
Fen321
Member
+54|6756|Singularity

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Fact: If the 'Native Americans' weren't pussyfooting around with each other all the years they had the Americas to themselves, they would have been the ones to discover Europe, and would've rocked its economy on their own terms.

No sympathy.

Major_Spittle wrote:

I have English, German, Dutch, and "Native American" blood in me.  Even if I pay reparations to myself I will still hate myself for what I did to myself before I was myself many centuries ago.

Dammit, all this liberal nonsense about oweing people shit for shit you have nothing to do with is causing me mental anguish.  I need to sue someone.  Nice going Bush!
My Mom was adopted, so I have no idea what's really going on there. All I really know for sure is that I owe myself big for damages done to Irish immigrants.
haha what a ridiculous way of justifying the killings of an entire civilization.

Funny, how now we have evidence that early Europeans colonized the Americas thousands of years to the arrival of other people through the bearing straights.


How is it liberal nonsense to compensate the people of the present for the atrocities of the past?
evilcartman99
The Octagon
+18|6671|da ville, va
Dude Columbus definitely did not discover America. He discovered nothing at all. The "Native" people were there already so therefore he could not have discovered it and the vikings discovered it early in the millennium.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6754

Pug wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

most people that don't like it don't because it's subtitled, yesterday in a store the employees were talking about it and one said "yeah, that mel gibson movie, it's subtitled and i'm like ok "gimmick", but i rented mr. and mrs. smith and watched that last night, now that was a good movie"

i tried my best not to laugh my ass off

It's basically a "day in the life of a mayan" movie, supposedly quite brutal, i've heard the scoring, photography, casting and all were top shelf. i try to avoid stories with plot elements as i don't like knowing anything about the movie beforehand, i wouldn't tell you if i knew either, i'm a movie nut and have very strict movie rules.

I also heard that children should be kept far and away from it
No, not because its subtitled.  I've seen plenty of subtitled movies and enjoyed them (like Crouching Tiger, Le Femme Nikita, Rambo/Rocky) but its more of the overwhelming feeling I got during the preview - "WTF is going on?  Dances with Wolves meets Predator.  Great, I fucking hate those movies."

Anyhow - should be good.  Not many movie options - it's been a pretty shitty year for flicks, but what else are you going to see?
Bond, Borat, Happy Feet, Departed, etc?
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6788|Global Command
Seems like a lot of you are missing the point.
Serge is calling Europeans hypocrits because he claims much of the wealth in Europe came from the early conquests of the Americas, which is a common excuse for Europeans to dislike America, that being, they say we raped and pilage the land and don't deserve anything.
     Interesting notion, but he provides no links to support his claim.
     While gold and treasure were certainly motivators, to say that the plunder of the Americas is mostly responible for Europes current stature is specious at best.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6801|Texas - Bigger than France
Bond was awesome.  I'm comparing it to Bourne.  Like past Bond, except without the cheezy stuff.  He gets messed up when he fights (so he doesn't turn a corner and look "smashing" or whatever), the spy stuff actually exists, and low on the cheezy lines.

Borat, I'll probably see later - over an hour of that accent would kill me...but I really am going to laugh when I see it finally.

Happy Feet, I'm too old for.

Departed - I haven't committed.

I guess I'm just hoping for a great movie to roll out soon...

http://www.movieweb.com/movies/film/39/1139/summary.php

I found that a sec ago...all I got to say is "sweet"
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|7014|United States of America

ATG wrote:

Seems like a lot of you are missing the point.
Serge is calling Europeans hypocrits because he claims much of the wealth in Europe came from the early conquests of the Americas, which is a common excuse for Europeans to dislike America, that being, they say we raped and pilage the land and don't deserve anything.
     Interesting notion, but he provides no links to support his claim.
     While gold and treasure were certainly motivators, to say that the plunder of the Americas is mostly responible for Europes current stature is specious at best.
If anything, it was the fights Europe had that made it stronger, especially the English control over Scottland and the wholre Braveheart thing...




[/sarcasm]

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