BF2S Forums Unspeakable torture *sarcasm*

usmarine2007 wrote:

I have been thru Escape and Evasion school ( SERE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SERE ) , which I volunteered to go thru.  So I do know a little about sleep deprivation and stress positions. 

That being said, I do not put myself in a position to be subject to these techniques.  I do not try and blow people up in the name of God.

So, until you go to SERE school, or get caught doing something bad, you sir FAIL.

Did they inject you with substances designed to break your will in SERE school? LSD? Barbiturates? Scopolamine HBr? Tropanes? Amobarbitol? Did you suffer possible permanent damage from resistance training?

Well, given that Padilla has not actually been tried or convicted of a crime, this punishment makes it likely for his case to be overturned.

There are essentially only 3 reasons for this kind of treatment: 1. punishment, 2. interrogation, 3. he's a security risk.

If punishment is the reason, then why is this happening to him if he hasn't been convicted and sentenced (remember, all of this occurred while Padilla was in pre-trial confinement)?

If it's interrogation, going beyond the actual problems with the effectiveness of such measures, any tactical information he may have known has long since ceased to become actionable and the alleged plots he was supposed to have been detained for aren't even mentioned in the indictment. Indeed, it doesn't even mention any specific violent actions against the US.

If he's a security risk then that explains the need to restrain him for medical exams, but not the other treatment. He doesn't appear to have been a risk while detained (all reports describe him as docile).

What justifies the treatment?

Masques wrote:

What justifies the treatment?

What justifies DUI checkpoints?

jonsimon wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

"Padilla claims, among other things, that he was forced to stand in painful stress positions, given LSD or some other drug as a "truth serum," subjected to loud noises and noxious odors and forced to endure sleep deprivation, extreme heat and cold, and harsh lights."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061204/ap_ … or_charges


Gee, how evil.

You realize that LSD, extreme heat and cold, and sleep depravation can all kill. And all those tortures have the potential to permenantly injure. I think we should torture you and see how evil you think it is then.

I have had sleep deprivation, heat and cold, but no drugs.  What is your point?

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

I have had sleep deprivation, heat and cold, but no drugs.  What is your point?

Drugs do make the difference...  I've had acid, and that was...  weird, to say the least.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with torturing this guy as long as we verify that he's a terrorist.

So we drug everyone at Gitmo?

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Drugs do make the difference...  I've had acid, and that was...  weird, to say the least.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with torturing this guy as long as we verify that he's a terrorist.

So we drug everyone at Gitmo?

I have no idea...  I thought waterboarding was the big thing over there....

Yep, along with custom meals, reading material of their choice, lawyer vists, prayer time........ we are so evil.

usmarine2007 wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

"Padilla claims, among other things, that he was forced to stand in painful stress positions, given LSD or some other drug as a "truth serum," subjected to loud noises and noxious odors and forced to endure sleep deprivation, extreme heat and cold, and harsh lights."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061204/ap_ … or_charges


Gee, how evil.

You realize that LSD, extreme heat and cold, and sleep depravation can all kill. And all those tortures have the potential to permenantly injure. I think we should torture you and see how evil you think it is then.

I have had sleep deprivation, heat and cold, but no drugs.  What is your point?

Oh yeah, when you spent that month in a korean prison, right?

Have you ever gone a week without sleeping, against your will? Have you ever say naked in the snow against your will? You haven't been tortured.

usmarine2007 wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

I have had sleep deprivation, heat and cold, but no drugs.  What is your point?

Oh yeah, when you spent that month in a korean prison, right?

Have you ever gone a week without sleeping, against your will? Have you ever say naked in the snow against your will? You haven't been tortured.

No, it was never taken that far.  I think they kept us awake for three days at SERE school.

Of course I have not been tortured, I do not do things that warrant harsh treatment in order to save lives around the world.

What does warranting harsh treatment have to do with it? That never seemed to concern the US.

usmarine2007 wrote:

Masques wrote:

What justifies the treatment?

What justifies DUI checkpoints?

If you're going to use a bullshit analogy at least use one a little more valid like, say, getting arrested at a DUI checkpoint and then being assaulted by police in the holding cell.

Are you saying this is acceptable treatment of pretrial suspects in most occasions (keep in mind Padilla is an American citizen, was arrested in the US, and the gov't didn't have enough evidence to even indict him on their original charges)?

san4 wrote:

Actually I think it's a pretty good analogy. Based on minimal levels of suspicion, DUI checkpoints restrict the freedom of American citizens for law enforcement purposes with no trial, conviction or access to an attorney. Isn't Padilla just an example of a significantly greater level of suspicion (of significantly greater harm) and a correspondingly greater level of restrictions?

No. In his case the checkpoint is analogous to his actual arrest (the purpose of checkpoints being the arrest of intoxicated drivers). What follows that initial act of law enforcement is the issue.

That someone can be held as a suspect or material witness for a given amount of time or that a warrant can be obtained for searches is acceptable, but holding someone without charge for 3 years (a judge was going to issue a ruling on the validity of Padilla's continued incarceration as a material witness and the administration simply declared him an enemy combatant citing the Iraq War authorization as legal justification) in those conditions is something quite different from a simple DUI checkpoint in both kind and degree.

It's even more strange, given that the effects of his treatment and the treatment itself (even former JAG attorneys agreed that the conditions of his incarceration are far beyond those found in similar cases) will most likely result in the case being overturned.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with torturing this guy as long as we verify that he's a terrorist.

Basically, because with some power tools and a pair of handcuffs, I could get anyone to "verify" where Jimmy Hoffa is buried.  It's exactly the same thing when the inquisition used to "verify" that someone was a heretic or colonial villages would "verify" that someone was indeed a practicing witch.

It goes something like this:
Interrogator - "Are you a terrorist?"
Suspect - "Nope"
*ZAP!*
I - "Are you a terrorist or not, this could go on all night?"
S - "No, I already told you!"
*ZAP!*
I - "So?"
S - "YES!  I'm a terrorist!"
I - "Good, now where is the bomb you were making?"
S - "What bomb?"
*ZAP!*, *Inject LSD*
S - "Oh!  Awesome man...the bomb is in the blue twinkie!"
I - "Thank you for your cooperation."

Basically, when you take a suspect and torture a confession out of him there is NO WAY to verify what he said, other than doing the same job you should have done in the first place and go out and investigate.  The US actually does hold criminal trials that MEAN SOMETHING, it means that a suspect has said he is innocent and the prosecution can present evidence to the contrary.  A signed confession is generally not part of that evidence and rarely does it need to be.  Evidence WILL exist so long as the crime was actually committed, the perfect crime has never really existed.

If you want to say he was "planning something", you need more proof than "I think he was formulating a thought related to the act of (insert crime here)."  You really could bust anyone for anything on that...like I think USMarine2007 is entertaining thoughts of being a serial child rapist, and Masques was thinking of doing the crime with him, so lets torture them both until they confess.  With enough "prolonged discomfort", I'm sure we can prove it.

Of course, if I'm against doing that then that makes me a child molestation sympathiser and an America hater.  Look, you want to go fight "terrorism", get off your lazy asses, put down the cooking implements and stereo parts, and go do some real investigating.  Maybe if you stopped thinking of "terrorism" as a crime instead of what it is, a CONCEPT, then things will be made a little clearer.  Destruction of property is a CRIME, murder is a crime, kidnapping is a cRiMe, trespassing is a crime, rape is a CRIME, and last but not least...TORTURE is a crime.  It shouldn't matter what context it is in, whether your aim is "terror" or "personal gratification", it is the same crime and a fair legal system should punish accordingly.

Look, myself and many others here have taken an OATH to defend our CONSTITUTION from all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.  No "terrorist" has EVER posed a serious threat to our constitution nor have they tried to overthrow our system of government, but in response, our own elected servants have done this in a self-serving quest for power and money, with "torture going mainstream" just a by-product.  The very fact that we are debating whether it is "Ok to torture a confession out of someone" today, when years ago it would be unimaginable (for good reason) is very telling.

Real conservatives need to wake the hell up.  Real liberals need to get very angry.  This concerns us both.

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2006-12-05 03:57:45)

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I have no idea...  I thought waterboarding was the big thing over there....

Yep, along with custom meals, reading material of their choice, lawyer vists, prayer time........ we are so evil.

Yeah, but there's no cable... 

Would not suprise me if there was.