Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6800|Texas - Bigger than France
I've been thinking about this for a while...I thought I'd see what you guys think.

When does free speech make a government completely ineffective?

I believe freedom of expression is the most important component of a democracy.  But I it comes with a tradeoff - government effectiveness.  Effectively it increases the bureaucracy present within the government, because everything is weighted by the possible outcomes and reactions by the public.  This is a form of self-criticism which I believe is a weakness inherent within a democracy.

I believe blind support is bad, but so is complete condemnation of your country's policies.

A current example of this is Iraq.  A past example is the Vietnam war.  Two unpopular wars, limited in their possible outcomes because "limited victory" is the best the country can achieve.  Certainly this is the case in Vietnam, where self criticism basically ruined any chance for victory.  I think that this is also the case for Iraq.

Rewind a bit.  Have you thought about Watergate's impact? 

Here's a scandal where the President's power base took an astounding hit.  Prior to this point Presidents pretty much didn't have to answer for too much.  Also prior to this point, the press' role was pretty much limited to covering what the President's office wanted them to know, rather than kicking over as many rocks as they could.  Eisenhower used his power to his advantage.  He would simply threaten credentials when asked, or simply answer "I'm not answering that...its a dead topic."  The President was able to intimidate the press...and therefore it was easier for the office to set the agenda without interference.  Not so today.  I can't remember the last President that wasn't criticized almost full-time.

In fact, up until Watergate, Nixon used the same tactic.  But after...now the press has free reign...little is out of bounds.

So my question is one of a balancing act.  Obviously freedom of expression is unbelievably important.  But simple decisions become minefields.  More input is required, so decisions take longer, and are more likely to be a compromise limiting the results...instead of a "90% or better" answer.

Is freedom of the press/freedom of speech/self criticism worth the eroding of our government's power?

Note that I'm not trying to get a clarification on whether you trust your government or not.  I'm of the belief that they're representative of the society you are a part of...which is why they were elected.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6663|North Carolina
I think you're blaming the freedom of speech for way too much.

Vietnam failed because LBJ was an idiot who tried to micromanage the war; the media only played a small part compared to his failings.

Iraq is falling apart for similar reasons.  Bush and co. didn't properly anticipate the violence of the region, despite the clear history of turmoil in Iraq before Saddam.   In the end, tactics matter the most in an operation like this one.

Nevertheless, I'd rather live in a country where "the eroding of our government's power" due to free speech is a concern rather than where the expansion of the government into our personal lives is....

Last edited by Turquoise (2006-12-04 15:31:47)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7016|Argentina
Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost."
Jefferson, Thomas 3rd President of the United States (1801-1809)

This applies to every country in the World.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6800|Texas - Bigger than France

Turquoise wrote:

I think you're blaming the freedom of speech for way too much.

Vietnam failed because LBJ was an idiot who tried to micromanage the war; the media only played a small part compared to his failings.

Iraq is falling apart for similar reasons.  Bush and co. didn't properly anticipate the violence of the region, despite the clear history of turmoil in Iraq before Saddam.   In the end, tactics matter the most in an operation like this one.

Nevertheless, I'd rather live in a country where "the eroding of our government's power" due to free speech is a concern rather than where the expansion of the government into our personal lives is....
Totally agree with that.

But what I'm saying is regarding the level of public knowledge and inherent criticism is impacting the decisions somewhat.  It's basically the argument that too much is public knowledge...and shouldn't be because it can impact basic decisions.

Things aren't as clear as they used to be.
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6778|Πάϊ
I believe that things are as clear now as they ever were. If one looks back in time, it is evident that everything has happened before at some point.

We would be fooling ourselves if we thought that our situation, problems and dilemmas are unique in history. In effect, I don't think that there's anything special about current events that requires any limitation to our liberties.

Because that is what is at stake here: our liberties. When you question the amount of knowledge the people should have, what they should know and be part of, you are essentially questioning the whole democratic establishment. I realize that this sets enormous barriers when it comes to swift decision making, but that is exactly the point. A correct system of government should primarily worry about the righteousness and legitimacy of any decisions it makes, and thus sacrifice swiftness, and to some extent, efficiency. That also keeps possible malevolent leaders from forwarding their agenda.

Enough things are already being decided behind the peoples' backs in what could be called the western interpretation of democracy. So much in fact, that I would be reluctant to call the latter a true democratic system.

PS: As far as the role of the media is concerned, I'd say, using the US as an example, that the Watergate has long been forgotten. Can't think of any exceptions at the moment, (its 4:30 in the morning here...) but as far as I can remember no western government has had any trouble manipulating the mass media to their benefit, essentially receiving no more than a pat in the back for what could have been their downfall. And even if there are such cases, which I doubt not, I'm pretty sure the majority of gov/ts and the large media corporations have an understanding shall we say
ƒ³
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6808|Southeastern USA
you have a right to speak freely until it directly compromises other's rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness

hello new york times!!
you listening?!?!
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6663|North Carolina

Pug wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I think you're blaming the freedom of speech for way too much.

Vietnam failed because LBJ was an idiot who tried to micromanage the war; the media only played a small part compared to his failings.

Iraq is falling apart for similar reasons.  Bush and co. didn't properly anticipate the violence of the region, despite the clear history of turmoil in Iraq before Saddam.   In the end, tactics matter the most in an operation like this one.

Nevertheless, I'd rather live in a country where "the eroding of our government's power" due to free speech is a concern rather than where the expansion of the government into our personal lives is....
Totally agree with that.

But what I'm saying is regarding the level of public knowledge and inherent criticism is impacting the decisions somewhat.  It's basically the argument that too much is public knowledge...and shouldn't be because it can impact basic decisions.

Things aren't as clear as they used to be.
I'd actually argue the public doesn't know enough.  Perhaps, if they did know more, they'd be able to put the images of violence in Iraq into context.

I'm still in favor of withdrawing from Iraq, but if we seriously want to win this, people will have to realize that any form of invasion and subsequent rebuilding is going to be bloody, expensive, and long.  It's not a matter of keeping the public ignorant; it's a matter of informing people of the logistics of nation-building.  If they saw how this whole process is supposed to work, then they'd understand where to go from here.  The same seems to even be true of our administration sadly....
Fen321
Member
+54|6756|Singularity

Pug wrote:

Is freedom of the press/freedom of speech/self criticism worth the eroding of our government's power?

Note that I'm not trying to get a clarification on whether you trust your government or not.  I'm of the belief that they're representative of the society you are a part of...which is why they were elected.
Yes it is eroding the power of the government, but honestly this is a good thing. Since we do live in a democracy if the public is what they are suppose to be representing does not want them to follow a certain course then unfortunately that's simply the way it goes. This is not an elite driven deal...haha wait take the back the elite run the deal they only let you think you get a choice in it.

Political trust and political efficacy have all to do with this topic since ultimately if you choose to voice your opinion in dissent of what the government is saying typically with that particular issue you are not likely to side with the governments stance thus reducing both political trust / efficacy. As Americans we do not really live in a truly democratic society, hell the founders  limited it even more than it is now, but still we consider ourselves democratic.

Power is a dangerous thing and if left unchecked will ultimately corrupt those who wield it, this is no different from the little school boy bully to a government's president.
Elamdri
The New Johnnie Cochran
+134|6905|Peoria
if you're interested in Free Speech, read the essay

"There's no such thing as Free Speech, and its a good thing too"

By Stanley Fish.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6704|The Land of Scott Walker

kr@cker wrote:

you have a right to speak freely until it directly compromises other's rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness

hello new york times!!
you listening?!?!
In WW2, NYT editors would have been prosecuted for compromising national security.  No one has the balls to do that today.  Leaking classified documents about ongoing operations is treason and should be treated as such.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6859|132 and Bush

I don't know if you guys are familiar with whats going on at University Campuses now with regards to free speech but it is getting out of hand. They are censoring free speech to the point that you can get prosecuted for saying how you feel.  This is the last place I would like to see censorship in the name of political correctness but it's happening.  When will people learn that political correctness will not change a persons opinion, it will just make them hold it in and never get over or explore how they feel. It is only then that we will be able to make progress. Putting a muzzle on society is a horrible thing to tolerate.

Voices should be heard.

And now for what is now my typical Penn & Teller video response
I made sure to put some Chomsky in there since there are so many fans here..lol
Xbone Stormsurgezz
BVC
Member
+325|6954

kr@cker wrote:

you have a right to speak freely until it directly compromises other's rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
A-fucking-men!  +1 to that man!
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6859|132 and Bush

Pubic wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

you have a right to speak freely until it directly compromises other's rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
A-fucking-men!  +1 to that man!
Well duh..lol
The problem is defining the point someone else's right has been compromised. If you don't like something remove yourself from the situation. It is a very delicate balance I guess. Everyone has rights. A person has the right to say how they feel, if you are offended get over it or maybe try to persuade that persons view. There is a proper way to express yourself though, I'm not promoting hate speech or anything like that. I think most every right and freedom we have begins with the right to free speech. There is nothing more important.



Making someone shut up is not defending yourself.

Last edited by Kmarion (2006-12-04 22:35:00)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6800|Texas - Bigger than France

Turquoise wrote:

I'd actually argue the public doesn't know enough.  Perhaps, if they did know more, they'd be able to put the images of violence in Iraq into context.

I'm still in favor of withdrawing from Iraq, but if we seriously want to win this, people will have to realize that any form of invasion and subsequent rebuilding is going to be bloody, expensive, and long.  It's not a matter of keeping the public ignorant; it's a matter of informing people of the logistics of nation-building.  If they saw how this whole process is supposed to work, then they'd understand where to go from here.  The same seems to even be true of our administration sadly....
I am for free speech to the utmost degree.  But I do believe that the coverage and criticism has reached a point that when the invasion was announced the best possible result was going to be  limited victory.  Even now, to "win" the PR campaign necessary would have to be incredible.  I also would believe that the failure was in the beginning in informing the masses on what is necessary to reach the goals outlined.  But its a Catch-22 - once the program is completely detailed and explained to the public, how many people would be in favor of it?  About the same as now.  And let's say everyone was for it - what's to say our enemies don't take notes too?

The coverage is also to an unneccessary degree - Clinton's distraction = US has no morals - Bush twins robbed = we can't protect the first family, so how can the government protect you - Reagan pukes on the Japanese = is age an issue for the President?

Nothing is out of bounds.  I'm talking specifically about the tradeoff - knowledge for effectiveness.  Is it worth the price?

On some things, I think its alright.  On some, no way!  Iraq is not a good example...but it was a way to show kind of the idea of where I was going...
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6800|Texas - Bigger than France

oug wrote:

I believe that things are as clear now as they ever were. If one looks back in time, it is evident that everything has happened before at some point.

We would be fooling ourselves if we thought that our situation, problems and dilemmas are unique in history. In effect, I don't think that there's anything special about current events that requires any limitation to our liberties.

Because that is what is at stake here: our liberties. When you question the amount of knowledge the people should have, what they should know and be part of, you are essentially questioning the whole democratic establishment. I realize that this sets enormous barriers when it comes to swift decision making, but that is exactly the point. A correct system of government should primarily worry about the righteousness and legitimacy of any decisions it makes, and thus sacrifice swiftness, and to some extent, efficiency. That also keeps possible malevolent leaders from forwarding their agenda.

Enough things are already being decided behind the peoples' backs in what could be called the western interpretation of democracy. So much in fact, that I would be reluctant to call the latter a true democratic system.

PS: As far as the role of the media is concerned, I'd say, using the US as an example, that the Watergate has long been forgotten. Can't think of any exceptions at the moment, (its 4:30 in the morning here...) but as far as I can remember no western government has had any trouble manipulating the mass media to their benefit, essentially receiving no more than a pat in the back for what could have been their downfall. And even if there are such cases, which I doubt not, I'm pretty sure the majority of gov/ts and the large media corporations have an understanding shall we say
Actually I'm not questioning the democratic establishment.  I'm pointing out the swift public reaction is impacting decisions before they are being made.  It is a weakness of a democracy - getting the public's opinion on everything prior to making the decision, or gauging the response prior to making the decision slows it down and can possibly limit the success of the outcome - aka it fixes 70% of the problem, and 80% of the people are happy rather than 90% of the problem and 60% happy...

As far as Watergate - it represents the first time in US history where a President has not been untouchable.  It opened up the avenue for reporters to be more vigilant than ever before, established more leeway for the media, and also impacted the office.  The White House Press corps was pretty small prior to this point.  After Watergate, managing the PR spin became as important as working the nation's problems.  My point is that Watergate gave the media more power than ever before.  I believe it's power has now extended indirectly into policy making by being ever vigilant, which breeds the "the public is not going to like this, so lets do something else" type attitude.
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6778|Πάϊ

Pug wrote:

Actually I'm not questioning the democratic establishment.  I'm pointing out the swift public reaction is impacting decisions before they are being made.  It is a weakness of a democracy - getting the public's opinion on everything prior to making the decision, or gauging the response prior to making the decision slows it down and can possibly limit the success of the outcome - aka it fixes 70% of the problem, and 80% of the people are happy rather than 90% of the problem and 60% happy...
Well, of course the lack of swiftness is a weakness, but then again, democracy is about keeping the majority happy... so fixing 70% of the problem and keeping 80% of the people happy is a success, whereas the other option qualifies more as a failure.

Pug wrote:

As far as Watergate - it represents the first time in US history where a President has not been untouchable.  It opened up the avenue for reporters to be more vigilant than ever before, established more leeway for the media, and also impacted the office.  The White House Press corps was pretty small prior to this point.  After Watergate, managing the PR spin became as important as working the nation's problems.  My point is that Watergate gave the media more power than ever before.  I believe it's power has now extended indirectly into policy making by being ever vigilant, which breeds the "the public is not going to like this, so lets do something else" type attitude.
Absolutely agree with that. I would add that this policy making power is totally run by the occasional government (but maybe that's just me being paranoid)...

Last edited by oug (2006-12-05 08:27:32)

ƒ³
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6800|Texas - Bigger than France

oug wrote:

Well, of course the lack of swiftness is a weakness, but then again, democracy is about keeping the majority happy... so fixing 70% of the problem and keeping 80% of the people happy is a success, whereas the other option qualifies more as a failure.
And breeds mediocrity.
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6778|Πάϊ

Pug wrote:

oug wrote:

Well, of course the lack of swiftness is a weakness, but then again, democracy is about keeping the majority happy... so fixing 70% of the problem and keeping 80% of the people happy is a success, whereas the other option qualifies more as a failure.
And breeds mediocrity.
Yes. But I prefer free mediocrity to superior enslavement.
ƒ³
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6800|Texas - Bigger than France
As do we all

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