How would the World be if Operation Barbarossa wouldn't have happened?

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How would the World be if Operation Barbarossa wouldn't have happened?

2006-12-04 10:51:26

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7016|Argentina

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, also known as the Hitler-Stalin Pact or German-Soviet Nonaggression Pact or Nazi-Soviet Pact and formally known as the Treaty of Nonaggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, was a non-aggression treaty between the German Third Reich and the Soviet Union. It was signed in Moscow on August 23, 1939, by the Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov and the German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop. The mutual non-aggression treaty lasted until Operation Barbarossa of June 22, 1941, when Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union.

We all know what happened later.

Imagine this scenario:
1940-USSR and Germany keep the good relationship and the USSR becomes a definitive part of the Axis. Hitler never attacks Russia. And Soviets help Hitler to fight in Western Europe, declaring war to Allies.

Do you think the Allies could have defeated the Axis?
In case of an Axis victory, how would the World look like today?
Would Hitler and Stalin respect the pact with each other after their victory over Allies?

Last edited by sergeriver (2006-12-04 11:07:53)

2006-12-04 10:55:50

usmarine2007: Banned; +374|6625|Columbus, Ohio

I think it depends on if the Japs would have still bombed Pearl Harbor.

2006-12-04 11:00:19

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7016|Argentina

usmarine2007 wrote:
I think it depends on if the Japs would have still bombed Pearl Harbor.

Let's say the Japs would have bombed Pearl Harbor. What would have happened? Sooner or later US was planning to get involved in WWII. The Japs gave you the early motivation to do it.

2006-12-04 11:00:22

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|7030|PNW

In 'Command & Conquer: Red Alert,' a time-traveler killed Hitler before he came into power. Germany doesn't become a significant power, and the USSR sweeps through Europe. In 'Red Alert 2,' they attack the mainland of the USA herself. The scenario seems a bit optimistic (in favor of the Soviet Union), as I can't imagine how the USSR could survive a push like that alone; opposed not only by the western powers as a whole, but by Imperial Japan as well. Still, it was a fun game.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-12-04 11:01:11)

2006-12-04 11:02:05

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7016|Argentina

unnamednewbie13 wrote:
In 'Command & Conquer: Red Alert,' a time-traveler killed Hitler before he came into power. Germany doesn't become a significant power, and the USSR sweeps through Europe. In 'Red Alert 2,' they attack the mainland of the USA herself. The scenario seems a bit optimistic (in favor of the Soviet Union), as I can't imagine how the USSR could survive a push like that alone; opposed not only by the western powers as a whole, but by Imperial Japan as well. Still, it was a fun game.

I love C&C games.

2006-12-04 11:02:10

commissargizz: Member; +123|6722| Heaven

The Americans would have used nukes eventually and Hitler was after a long bomber and was also after some sort of nuclear weapon, so MAYBE we would of had some sort of nuclear warfare.

2006-12-04 11:03:55

Bertster7: Confused Pothead; +1,101|6840|SE London

usmarine2007 wrote:
I think it depends on if the Japs would have still bombed Pearl Harbor.

Pearl Harbour is kind of irrelevant. It had very little impact on America joining the war.

Pearl Harbour was allowed to happen - that's not conspiracy theory, just plain fact, as recently declassified documents show. It was allowed to happen to shift US public opinion.

If Hitler had never attacked Russia and had continued in his alliance with Stalin, the Allies would have lost. There is no question about it.

2006-12-04 11:04:04

[pt] KEIOS: srs bsns; +231|6911|pimelteror.de

The non-agggression pact wasn´t an act of friendship. it was strategically important for both sides and should only delay the unavoidable conflict between those two regimes. the nazis hated a lot, but they hated jews and communists the most. part of the nazi ideologie was, to expand the reich to the east, to gain "lebensraum"....

you can´t mix oil and water.

2006-12-04 11:04:53

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|7030|PNW

sergeriver wrote:
unnamednewbie13 wrote:
In 'Command & Conquer: Red Alert,' a time-traveler killed Hitler before he came into power. Germany doesn't become a significant power, and the USSR sweeps through Europe. In 'Red Alert 2,' they attack the mainland of the USA herself. The scenario seems a bit optimistic (in favor of the Soviet Union), as I can't imagine how the USSR could survive a push like that alone; opposed not only by the western powers as a whole, but by Imperial Japan as well. Still, it was a fun game.
I love C&C games.

Are you awaiting C&C3 as eagerly as I am?

To anybody who doesn't know C&C but would like to: pick up 'C&C: The First Decade' for $30.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-12-04 11:05:55)

2006-12-04 11:08:06

Pernicious544: Zee Tank Skank; +80|6959|MoVal So-Cal

Communism and Fascism do not mix. The two would go to war no matter what you think. Stalin would have attacked Germany if Hitler didn't attack Russia. Basically, they would have fought no matter what.

2006-12-04 11:08:39

SpaceApollyon: Scratch where it itches; +41|6778|Finland

[pt] KEIOS wrote:
The non-agggression pact wasn´t an act of friendship.

QFT

2006-12-04 11:09:03

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7016|Argentina

unnamednewbie13 wrote:
sergeriver wrote:
unnamednewbie13 wrote:
In 'Command & Conquer: Red Alert,' a time-traveler killed Hitler before he came into power. Germany doesn't become a significant power, and the USSR sweeps through Europe. In 'Red Alert 2,' they attack the mainland of the USA herself. The scenario seems a bit optimistic (in favor of the Soviet Union), as I can't imagine how the USSR could survive a push like that alone; opposed not only by the western powers as a whole, but by Imperial Japan as well. Still, it was a fun game.
I love C&C games.
Are you awaiting C&C3 as eagerly as I am?

To anybody who doesn't know C&C but would like to: pick up 'C&C: The First Decade' for $30.

Of course.

2006-12-04 11:12:50

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7016|Argentina

SpaceApollyon wrote:
[pt] KEIOS wrote:
The non-agggression pact wasn´t an act of friendship.
QFT

Imagine this scenario:
1940-USSR and Germany keep the good relationship and the USSR becomes a definitive part of the Axis. Hitler never attacks Russia. And Soviets help Hitler to fight in Western Europe, declaring war to Allies.

Do you think the Allies could have defeated the Axis?
In case of an Axis victory, how would the World look like today?
Would Hitler and Stalin respect the pact with each other after their victory over Allies?

Use your imagination.

2006-12-04 11:14:56

Fancy_Pollux: Connoisseur of Fine Wine; +1,306|6904

sergeriver wrote:
Do you think the Allies could have defeated the Axis?

Yes. Drop 1 nuke on Hiroshima and another on Berlin/Moscow.

Last edited by Fancy_Pollux (2006-12-04 11:15:19)

2006-12-04 11:15:44

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7016|Argentina

[pt] KEIOS wrote:
The non-agggression pact wasn´t an act of friendship. it was strategically important for both sides and should only delay the unavoidable conflict between those two regimes. the nazis hated a lot, but they hated jews and communists the most. part of the nazi ideologie was, to expand the reich to the east, to gain "lebensraum"....

you can´t mix oil and water.

Germany granted the Soviet Union a merchandise credit of 200 million Reichsmarks to be financed by the German Golddiskontbank. This loan would be 100% guaranteed by the German government and entail an interest rate of 5%; extremely favorable terms at the time. The credit was to be used to finance Soviet orders in Germany to include machinery, manufactured goods, war materials and hard currency.

2006-12-04 11:17:25

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|7030|PNW

Fancy_Pollux wrote:
sergeriver wrote:
Do you think the Allies could have defeated the Axis?
Yes. Drop 1 nuke on Hiroshima and another on Berlin/Moscow.

...
*Roosevelt has left the game.*
Hitler[AoE]: wtf?
Eisenhower: sh1t now we need some1 to join
*tru_m4n has joined the game.*
tru_m4n: hi all
T0J0: hey
Stalin: sup
Churchill: hi
tru_m4n: OMG OMG OMG i got all his stuff!
tru_m4n: NUKES! HOLY **** I GOT NUKES
Stalin: d00d gimmie some plz
tru_m4n: no way i only got like a couple
Stalin: omg dont be gay gimmie nuculer secrets
T0J0: wtf is nukes?
T0J0: holy ****holy****hoyl****!
*T0J0 has been eliminated.*
*The Allied team has won the game!*
Eisenhower: awesome!
Churchill: gg noobs no re
T0J0: thats bull**** u fockin suck
*T0J0 has left the game.*
*Eisenhower has left the game.*
Stalin: next game im not going to be on ur team, u guys didnt help me for ****
Churchill: wutever, we didnt need ur help neway dumbarss
tru_m4n: l8r all
benny~tow: bye
Churchill: l8r
Stalin: fock u all
tru_m4n: shut up commie lol
*tru_m4n has left the game.*
benny~tow: lololol u commie
Churchill: ROFL
Churchill: bye commie
*Churchill has left the game.*
*benny~tow has left the game.*
Stalin: i hate u all fags
*Stalin has left the game.*
...

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-12-04 11:17:48)

2006-12-04 11:18:53

Stingray24: Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy; +1,060|6704|The Land of Scott Walker

sergeriver wrote:
Imagine this scenario:
1940-USSR and Germany keep the good relationship and the USSR becomes a definitive part of the Axis. Hitler never attacks Russia. And Soviets help Hitler to fight in Western Europe, declaring war to Allies.

Do you think the Allies could have defeated the Axis?
In case of an Axis victory, how would the World look like today?
Would Hitler and Stalin respect the pact with each other after their victory over Allies?

Yes, Allies still defeat, we had nukes, Axis did not, though they were close.

What would the world look like today? Who knows, I seriously doubt Hitler and Stalin would respect the pact with each other after victory. Considering they are both dictators and Hitler's desire for supreme rule, Hitler would still attack Russia.

EDIT:
+1 to unnamednewbie for creativity in the above post

Last edited by Stingray24 (2006-12-04 11:20:42)

2006-12-04 11:21:30

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7016|Argentina

Stingray24 wrote:
sergeriver wrote:
Imagine this scenario:
1940-USSR and Germany keep the good relationship and the USSR becomes a definitive part of the Axis. Hitler never attacks Russia. And Soviets help Hitler to fight in Western Europe, declaring war to Allies.

Do you think the Allies could have defeated the Axis?
In case of an Axis victory, how would the World look like today?
Would Hitler and Stalin respect the pact with each other after their victory over Allies?
Yes, Allies still defeat, we had nukes, Axis did not, though they were close.

What would the world look like today? Who knows, I seriously doubt Hitler and Stalin would respect the pact with each other after victory. Considering they are both dictators and Hitler's desire for supreme rule, Hitler would still attack Russia.

But when were the nukes ready? I mean how would you stop them until you have the nukes?

2006-12-04 11:23:17

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|7030|PNW

Stingray24 wrote:
+1 to unnamednewbie for creativity in the above post

Thanks, but I didn't write it. I don't even know who did, but it's been around for awhile. There's more to it, but I just cut out a relevant section.

2006-12-04 11:40:51

Stingray24: Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy; +1,060|6704|The Land of Scott Walker

sergeriver wrote:
Stingray24 wrote:
sergeriver wrote:
Imagine this scenario:
1940-USSR and Germany keep the good relationship and the USSR becomes a definitive part of the Axis. Hitler never attacks Russia. And Soviets help Hitler to fight in Western Europe, declaring war to Allies.

Do you think the Allies could have defeated the Axis?
In case of an Axis victory, how would the World look like today?
Would Hitler and Stalin respect the pact with each other after their victory over Allies?
Yes, Allies still defeat, we had nukes, Axis did not, though they were close.

What would the world look like today? Who knows, I seriously doubt Hitler and Stalin would respect the pact with each other after victory. Considering they are both dictators and Hitler's desire for supreme rule, Hitler would still attack Russia.
But when were the nukes ready? I mean how would you stop them until you have the nukes?

Ah, yes, true. Dunno.

2006-12-04 11:45:57

Spearhead: Gulf coast redneck hippy; +731|6948|Tampa Bay Florida

USSR would never "join" the Axis, both factions had conflicting goals and eventually they would have gone to war with eachother. Besides, Stalin and Hitler hated eachothers guts. The facsists hated the communists, and vice versa. There was no way in hell they would've ever been allies.......

2006-12-04 11:46:51

Pug: UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate; +652|6800|Texas - Bigger than France

Peace treaty. Germany owns most of mainland Europe. Russia owns most of Eastern Europe. Pacific theatre not impacted much.

Eventually Germany & USSR fight a turf war in Eastern Europe. US probably backs one side or the other (I'd guess Germany)...and WWIII.

2006-12-04 12:44:50

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|7030|PNW

unnamednewbie13 wrote:
In 'Command & Conquer: Red Alert,' a time-traveler killed Hitler before he came into power. Germany doesn't become a significant power, and the USSR sweeps through Europe. In 'Red Alert 2,' they attack the mainland of the USA herself. The scenario seems a bit optimistic (in favor of the Soviet Union), as I can't imagine how the USSR could survive a push like that alone; opposed not only by the western powers as a whole, but by Imperial Japan as well. Still, it was a fun game.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=85tMFIA6Dy0

2006-12-04 12:58:18

Stingray24: Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy; +1,060|6704|The Land of Scott Walker

unnamednewbie13 wrote:
sergeriver wrote:
unnamednewbie13 wrote:
In 'Command & Conquer: Red Alert,' a time-traveler killed Hitler before he came into power. Germany doesn't become a significant power, and the USSR sweeps through Europe. In 'Red Alert 2,' they attack the mainland of the USA herself. The scenario seems a bit optimistic (in favor of the Soviet Union), as I can't imagine how the USSR could survive a push like that alone; opposed not only by the western powers as a whole, but by Imperial Japan as well. Still, it was a fun game.
I love C&C games.
Are you awaiting C&C3 as eagerly as I am?

To anybody who doesn't know C&C but would like to: pick up 'C&C: The First Decade' for $30.

C&C3 - March 2007

2006-12-04 13:37:45

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|7030|PNW

Stingray24 wrote:
unnamednewbie13 wrote:
sergeriver wrote:

I love C&C games.
Are you awaiting C&C3 as eagerly as I am?

To anybody who doesn't know C&C but would like to: pick up 'C&C: The First Decade' for $30.
C&C3 - March 2007

Yes. It will take its place on my shelf next to all the other strategy titles. Wished more people played Savage though.

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usmarine2007 wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

[pt] KEIOS wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

[pt] KEIOS wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

[pt] KEIOS wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

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