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Poll

Hypothetical Situation: read OP & select an opinion

I'll liberate my own nation TKVM!34%34% - 11
I'd welcome them with open arms/unquestioning trust.6%6% - 2
I'd be deeply suspicious of their motives.18%18% - 6
WTF do Russians know about rebuilding MY society!!18%18% - 6
Initial benefit-of-the-doubt but GTFO Russia asap!15%15% - 5
Other, elaborate...6%6% - 2
Total: 32
2006-12-02 15:03:17
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6814
I've deleted the other thread because of the generally high level of people who posted in it who either:
a) couldn't understand the concept of hypothesis - creating an alternate reality, defining it and imagining how you might respond to it or how it might shape your opinion;
b) got all 'my dick is bigger than your dick' macho, completely missing the point of the scenario by drivelling on about army sizes and whatnot;
c) gave the pointless stock response of 'Bush Basher' without addressing ANY of the issues posed in the thread;
d) were completely devoid of intellect, intelligence or did not possess even a passing semblence of the cerebral characteristics of a sentient being.
/rant

Imagine YOUR nation drifted towards a corrupt and despotic government so much so that the leader of your country managed to successfully consolidate a position as dictator. Imagine YOUR nation's leader was somewhat of a warmonger and drew the ire of the international community, which threatened repercussions.

Now, how would YOU feel/respond if the 'democratic' nation of RUSSIA came to 'liberate' YOUR nation from the leader of YOUR nation, based on THEIR stated aims of removing a dangerous leader from power, removing nuclear weapons that YOUR nation are believed to have (thus eliminating the threat posed to you), rebuilding YOUR society and infrastructure post-invasion with the 'help' of revenue procured from YOUR natural resources and contractors from Russia?

Would you be:
a) suspicious of their motives?
b) affronted that they think they know what's best for MY nation/society?
c) happy that they felt generous enough to liberate me and my fellow countrymen?
d) already in the process of fighting the evil dictator of YOUR country and annoyed that Russia feels it thinks it should dabble in the affairs of YOUR country?
e) etc., etc.

DISCUSS>>>

For the purpose of the hypothetical situation please IMAGINE that the forces of Russia are superior to the standing army of YOUR nation. Also imagine that Russia is a key ally of a long-time arch-nemesis of YOUR nation.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-12-02 17:35:29)

2006-12-02 15:08:02
jonsimon
Member
+224|6754
Gotta go with total rejection on this one. If it were an ally, I could see initial benefit of the doubt, but the friend of my enemy?
2006-12-02 15:12:11
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6663|North Carolina
I'm not going to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone that invades my country.  If my government was a dictatorship that I hated, then yes, I would help the "liberators."  However, I'm not going to do that under the current governmental situation I live in.

Nevertheless, I like this thread as much as I liked the other one, because it is good to keep a sound perspective on things like the situation currently going on in a small oil-producing country. 
2006-12-02 15:13:27
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6781|...

Other ... I would take as many people as I could from the country ... to another perhaps rural country ... mix up a huge batch of poisonous Kool-aid and
"liberate" them.
2006-12-02 15:14:37
Sentinel
Cheeseburger Connoisseur
+145|6916|Australia
i will liberate my own nation and WTF do russians know about rebuilding my society.

dont get me wrong, i love the russians, but in this scenario they should keep out. Basically they would invade - destroying our infrastructure, and then rebuild it all using our own money.
the principal of sovereign nations allows all countries in the world to run THEMSELVES, without external influences from other governments or nations - why should that change? it simply isnt right for one country to go in and 'liberate' another, no matter how corrupt or 'evil' the country might be. sure - if the country ASKED for help, go right ahead. but in this case, back off.

I know this is based on iraq, and i suppose designed to put us in the iraqi's scenario to generate an increased understanding - and even then i stick by what i have chosen and said.
2006-12-02 15:24:01
R0lyP0ly
Member
+161|6912|USA
i would welcome them; after all, my government is despotic. I think, CP, that with your use of caps and bold you are subliminally conveying your thoughts...am i right? (not gonna flame or post tangent stuff, just wondering)
2006-12-02 15:52:21
Phantom2828
Member
+51|6786|Land of the free
The options are polar opposite there is not middle ground.
Anyways I would liberate my own country or die trying. BUT if it was 100% impossible like it was in Iraq I would welcome them and fight with them. As long as they are doing good, such as destroying the rest of the oppressive regime or insurgents (like Iraq) I would be fine with it. BUT if there was nothing left to do I of course would want them to leave.
2006-12-02 16:10:11
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6663|North Carolina
Let me rephrase something here...

Because you mentioned Russia as the liberating force, that's the main reason why I would fight them.  I don't see Putin as any better than a dictator (I think he's one himself).

However...  if the force was....  the U.K., France, Germany, Australia, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Ireland, Iceland, and a few other nations that I respect (or some combination of these forces), then I would aid the invading force.

It really depends on who's doing the liberating.
2006-12-02 17:18:34
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6814

Turquoise wrote:

Let me rephrase something here...

Because you mentioned Russia as the liberating force, that's the main reason why I would fight them.  I don't see Putin as any better than a dictator (I think he's one himself).

However...  if the force was....  the U.K., France, Germany, Australia, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Ireland, Iceland, and a few other nations that I respect (or some combination of these forces), then I would aid the invading force.

It really depends on who's doing the liberating.
Do you think that Iraqis might view George W. Bush, a staunch ally of their arch-enemies Israel, as somewhat of a deeply unsavoury character?
2006-12-02 17:20:49
BVC
Member
+325|6954
Removal of a corrupt dictator would be good, but as nuclear weapons and power are nonexistant...and ILLEGAL...here, I'd be deeply suspeicious of their motives.
2006-12-02 17:51:17
SysTray
"Generous mods" < Thats right Systray !
+180|7079|Delaware
I would have to say (with no bias caused by the Bush goings-on in Iraq influencing this answer) that I would supposedly welcome the "liberation" by a democratic country. At the same time however, I would question why they suddenly hopped up out of their chairs and decided to save little old me.

This has nothing to do with what my beliefs might be about Russians or whatever. Simply what I would think about a country who came and "liberated" me from my dictator.

Kind of a hard question to ask hypothetically because you can't really account for the millions of factors that the rest of the world presents and the way our non-hypothetical world works.
2006-12-02 18:14:27
Archer
rapes face
+161|6682|Canuckistan
Hey, I'll probably never be a president of a country in my life, probably not even if re-incarnation exists.

Who am I to decide... but anyways.. I'll be deeply suspicious of their motives.
I mean, when a guy has his leg broken and is lying on the ground, you sure as hell can do any shit you want to him.
2006-12-02 18:31:01
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6663|North Carolina

CameronPoe wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Let me rephrase something here...

Because you mentioned Russia as the liberating force, that's the main reason why I would fight them.  I don't see Putin as any better than a dictator (I think he's one himself).

However...  if the force was....  the U.K., France, Germany, Australia, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Ireland, Iceland, and a few other nations that I respect (or some combination of these forces), then I would aid the invading force.

It really depends on who's doing the liberating.
Do you think that Iraqis might view George W. Bush, a staunch ally of their arch-enemies Israel, as somewhat of a deeply unsavoury character?
I had a feeling you'd make that conclusion.  To be honest, I feel the same way.

The only problem is that, from my perspective, the culture we've invaded is far inferior to ours.  I know that's ethnocentric and prejudiced, but I'm just being honest here.  We're in the process of trying to modernize these people, but we've found out that their clergy is even more crazy than we originally assumed.

I think we can agree that America should withdraw, but at the same time, I can see why the pro-war people want us to finish the mission.  They're worried that Iraq will become a theocratic state that supports terror when we leave.  The reason why I still support withdrawal is that I believe this will happen when we leave, regardless of whether we leave today or 10 years from now.  Unless...  we become as brutal as Saddam was, but yeah, we probably shouldn't go down that road.

Anyway, I see your point.  From their perspective, we're like Russia coming in to take over.  Our culture probably seems inferior to them, so they want us out.

I guess this is a crossroads for us intellectually.  I can understand the way the enemy thinks, but because my loyalty is to America first and foremost, I support our side.
2006-12-02 19:34:35
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6727
l'll save us before the Ruskies could.
2006-12-02 19:40:41
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6645
If its a just cause then yeah Id support them. Now lets piss Cam Poe off by going for the true meaning of what this was all about. If it happened to the USA right now I would fight unquestionably, if I was living in Iraq 5 year ago under Saddam I would welcome the invaders, excuse me, I mean liberators. Now if a regeme that I didnt support and that harmed the country and the people some how came into power I would support another nation state liberating us.
2006-12-02 19:44:30
Paco_the_Insane
Phorum Phantom
+244|6903|Ohio
How did you chose Russia?
2006-12-02 19:51:52
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6814

Paco_the_Insane wrote:

How did you chose Russia?
Because of the subliminal analogy in my OP. Many westerners are deeply sceptical of Russia. They don't seem like the most trustworthy of nations. Much as Iraqis might view USA, given that USA is a completely alien culture (predominantly christian v predominantly muslim), is a staunch ally of their sworn enemies (Israel), has a generally poor record on the 'liberation' wholesomeness front post-WWII (Nicaragua, Cuba, Vietnam, etc.) and strangely completely overlooked the far more clear and present danger North Korea posed (suggesting ulterior motives).

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-12-02 19:55:55)

2006-12-04 00:56:50
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6814

Commie Killer wrote:

If its a just cause then yeah Id support them. Now lets piss Cam Poe off by going for the true meaning of what this was all about. If it happened to the USA right now I would fight unquestionably, if I was living in Iraq 5 year ago under Saddam I would welcome the invaders, excuse me, I mean liberators. Now if a regeme that I didnt support and that harmed the country and the people some how came into power I would support another nation state liberating us.
Why do you reckon Iraqis are so fucking incapable? The rent-a-mob Irish managed to liberate ourselves, as did the forces of George Washington. Do you not believe self determination is what is right and proper. Countries do not all evolve at the same pace ye know.
2006-12-04 03:19:19
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6778|Πάϊ
No matter how many YOU and YOUR you use CP, some people will never get it. Especially the ones that are "Russia" in the real world

And for the record, I'd welcome them if I judged that my country's revolutionaries needed the aid, but I'd be suspicious at all times and more than happy to kick them out when they'd be of no further use (Balkan style exploitation)

Last edited by oug (2006-12-04 03:24:14)

ƒ³
2006-12-04 03:28:32
BALTINS
ಠ_ಠ
+37|6745|Latvia
Russia occupied my country 3 times in the last century, so even if our government would be the devil himself, I wouldnt let Russia do my job.

Last edited by BALTINS (2006-12-04 03:29:27)

2006-12-04 04:19:41
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Let me rephrase something here...

Because you mentioned Russia as the liberating force, that's the main reason why I would fight them.  I don't see Putin as any better than a dictator (I think he's one himself).

However...  if the force was....  the U.K., France, Germany, Australia, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Ireland, Iceland, and a few other nations that I respect (or some combination of these forces), then I would aid the invading force.

It really depends on who's doing the liberating.
Do you think that Iraqis might view George W. Bush, a staunch ally of their arch-enemies Israel, as somewhat of a deeply unsavoury character?
lol, I saw this thread for what it really is and it took only 4 or 5 posts for Cameronpoe to reveal it.

We knew you were talking about the US in the first place Cam, (or at least I did) why didn't you just come out and say that you are starting another US/BUSH bashing thread?
2006-12-04 04:23:51
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:

If its a just cause then yeah Id support them. Now lets piss Cam Poe off by going for the true meaning of what this was all about. If it happened to the USA right now I would fight unquestionably, if I was living in Iraq 5 year ago under Saddam I would welcome the invaders, excuse me, I mean liberators. Now if a regeme that I didnt support and that harmed the country and the people some how came into power I would support another nation state liberating us.
Why do you reckon Iraqis are so fucking incapable? The rent-a-mob Irish managed to liberate ourselves, as did the forces of George Washington. Do you not believe self determination is what is right and proper. Countries do not all evolve at the same pace ye know.
Could it be that Saddam spent his entire reign beating his people down so much that they have no fight left in them? Oh and before you say it, the majority of the people we are fighting there now are flooding in from other countries to ensure Iraq will never be at peace, free, or prosperous.
2006-12-04 04:24:36
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6814

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Let me rephrase something here...

Because you mentioned Russia as the liberating force, that's the main reason why I would fight them.  I don't see Putin as any better than a dictator (I think he's one himself).

However...  if the force was....  the U.K., France, Germany, Australia, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Ireland, Iceland, and a few other nations that I respect (or some combination of these forces), then I would aid the invading force.

It really depends on who's doing the liberating.
Do you think that Iraqis might view George W. Bush, a staunch ally of their arch-enemies Israel, as somewhat of a deeply unsavoury character?
lol, I saw this thread for what it really is and it took only 4 or 5 posts for Cameronpoe to reveal it.

We knew you were talking about the US in the first place Cam, (or at least I did) why didn't you just come out and say that you are starting another US/BUSH bashing thread?
This doesn't have to be about that. I want people to consider themselves in said situation and profer forth their views. There was a previous incarnation of this thread that I deleted where I specifically used Bush and the USA as part of the example so it's not like I'm hiding anything. I don't want to sit here and bash Bush - I want to know how people would feel, particularly Americans, if they were subjected to the situation in my hypothesis, drawing parallels with reality.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-12-04 04:25:36)

2006-12-04 04:26:40
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6814

lowing wrote:

Could it be that Saddam spent his entire reign beating his people down so much that they have no fight left in them? Oh and before you say it, the majority of the people we are fighting there now are flooding in from other countries to ensure Iraq will never be at peace, free, or prosperous.
Like the Mehdi army? Holder of a crucial number of parliamentary seats?
2006-12-04 05:03:28
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6625|Columbus, Ohio
Another great post R-Tard.

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